STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[Echo of Soul]

So you didnt read the post, obviously. Its a shame, since you might learn something if you did. In particular in regards to the loot a "casual" player can obtain in wow RIGHT NOW, compared to say...............hmmm................heroic raid loot?

If you can get heroic raid loot from doing trivial content in WoW over months of progress that's great. It works for the filthy casuals in other games, glad to see that Blizzard is learning even if it doesn't affect me personally.

[cparle87]

max level keys doesn't mean anything.
I'm not comparing two different players, it's the same one. 15keys have a difficulty on par with heroic raiding. You don't bother reading or understanding. You use dichotomy but you clearly don't know the meaning of the word.

I'm done with our exchange.

Says who? Are you the arbiter of comparative difficulty? If you think max level keys are too easy for the gear they drop then say so. Stop with the ad hominem already because you can't get your point across.

Fyi, the guy doing the 15 keys get a mythic level piece once a week. So yes, a guy doing 15s does get better stuff and a longer progression curve than a heroic raider.

[potis]

This is one of the best posts of the entite thread. I find laughable that the term casual is used to describe someone who plays 2/4 hours a day lol

But thats the thing, its not laughable, its one of the main discussions for the last , easily 12 years in WoW life.

Thats why the quote "Anyone that plays less than me is a scrub and anyone that plays more than me is a hardcore" is basically describing the WoW Community the last 12 years.

Again, this is the same discussion as always, people just refuse to accept their skill level and the "hierarchy" they create in their head, to prove to themselves cause there is no other way to say this, that they arent shit, or wasting their time.

Cause people that play less than them and progress much further/faster, dont fit their narrative to defend their lack of skill.

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Fyi, the guy doing the 15 keys get a mythic level piece once a week. So yes, a guy doing 15s does get better stuff and a longer progression curve than a heroic raider.

Which is the only reason i am still playing with the guys i am playing, i can tolerate wiping 20 extra hours in a span of 4 months because the Vault system exists cause

1)I am done gearing from M+ and vault long before we even clear HC most of the time (I can admit i get really lucky the first few weeks >_>)

2)The decent players get geared up faster to carry the weaker players which saves me from simply quitting this game totally, cause the next time i get burnt out is probably gonna be the last.

Although Sepulcher is very close to doing so, such joke easy bosses, but the weaker players are exhausting me

[cparle87]

1)I am done gearing from M+ and vault long before we even clear HC most of the time (I can admit i get really lucky the first few weeks >_>)

2)The decent players get geared up faster to carry the weaker players which saves me from simply quitting this game totally, cause the next time i get burnt out is probably gonna be the last.

Although Sepulcher is very close to doing so, such joke easy bosses, but the weaker players are exhausting me

You bring up some good points. Blizz tries to slow down people being able to get geared TOO fast in early seasons with things like the mythic cap, but it's still usually faster than doing equivalent raiding, ie 15s for heroic.

[potis]

You bring up some good points. Blizz tries to slow down people being able to get geared TOO fast in early seasons with things like the mythic cap, but it's still usually faster than doing equivalent raiding, ie 15s for heroic.

Its not exactly that, if you have common sense.

Did the make the timegating clearly more obvious than before? Yes.

But what exactly is the difference between "Farm 10-20 dailies for 60 days in a row to unlock the questline!" better than "Everything will be unlocked in 8 weeks".

The true casual doesnt even know this happened, again, the true casual doesnt follow the game, the average whiner complainer that has been playing for 10 years but never really understood the game or got better? Hell of course they complain, they dont even know why they are complaining.

The above is for the pointless content, for gearing routes, M+ and Vault, combined with at least HC raiding, you are pretty much done gearing in 2 months with some basic luck, which is faster than anything that existed before this system.

Problem is, people dont accept "Just do a M+5 and get your 260 item in the vault" since thats your skill level cap, when the 278 item exists, despite that never happening in the game, lately their narrative is literally twisted to something completely lacking common sense.

"Out of all those games out there, i chose WoW and paid 15$ and i spent 5 hours online failing completely at the game and ruined 3 M+5 keys, i better get a full Mythic set as a reward before my sub is over or i am going to FFXIV! to pay the sub for 1 year and get my set there!"

Well okay?

[Battlebeard]

8 hours a day for 5 days a week is...a 40-hour work week. In terms of time. You spend as much time gaming as others spend working to support themselves and their loved ones, financially that is. That is hardcore my dude.

You know who's a casual? My mate John. He gets home from work at 6 in the afternoon, eats, logs on at 7, plays till around 9-10ish and logs off. The content he does irrelevant on if he's casual or not. He farms 15's with me. Wanna know how he farms 15's while playing 2-3h/day 3 times a week? Cause he gives me a fucking phonecall on his way back from work. He asks me if I and the boys are available tonight. If we are he logs on and plays with us. If we're not he doesn't, he does something else. John is the definition of a casual who values his time. He doesn't waste time pugging, because while pugs can be successful in M+, they take time to form. John doesn't have time. You, who spends 40 hours per week gaming, is most certainly NOT a casual.

John is a casual. 10-12h/week is casual. You are not. 40h/week is not casual, that's the definition of a 9-5 job.

Maybe you need even more perspective. Allow me to elaborate.

I trained in Karate for 7 years, from 8 yrs old to 15 yrs old. Training was 3 times a week, 1.5 hours per session. Tournaments happened once a year on average. Exam periods happened twice a year. That's 4.5h/week, make it 5 on average if we add 2-day long tournaments and 1-day long exam days to the grand total.

5h/week is the basic definition of a "hobby". Perhaps one plays tennis every day for 2h/day? More hardcore than my Karate training, but still, in the realm of the "hobby" definition, since that is still 10h/week.

Anything above that you start entering the realm of what we call "Part-time jobs" in terms of time. Part-time jobs clock in at between 18-24h/week, depending on industry.

40h/week and we're talking full time. Full time job, full time student, full time Ph.D researcher (not a student or a professor yet), all these roles fall into the "full-time" category.

You, my friend, are a full-time gamer, whether you like it or not, as dictated by society's standards and basic arithmetic. The fact you're not competitive is of no matter - you're a full time gamer. You're not a SERIOUS full time gamer, otherwise you'd be streaming your 40h/week play sessions and maybe make some money out of it. Or you'd be a competitive full time gamer, in which case you'd be duking it out in League of Legends to reach Challenger rank and get recruited by pro teams. Whatever you do with your gaming time is irrelevant - you are not a casual, you are a hardcore full-time gamer.

Tomato, tomato (this expression is not good in text but I'm sure you heard it). We simply have different definitions of the word.

To me, if we split it into Casual Vs. Hardcore, casual is only the LEVEL of gaming you do.

Pushing world records in speedruns or realm firsts, but also hard stuff like completing hard single player games on the toughest difficulty or raiding mythic, or competing on face.it in CS:GO goes under the category Hardcore for me, you play hard things that require alot of focus, dedication, skill etc.

Casual is everything else, easy, chill stuff, it doesn't matter how much time you spend.

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LFR is the closest the game has to afk content, and raiding has four difficulties. Why is it bad that the game requires at least a bit of skill? What's the point of playing a game that poses no challenge at all?

LFR today is honestly 10 TIMES harder than LFR was in Dragon Soul, the first LFR we had. LFR is far too hard for what it should be. LFR should be the unfailable, unwipeable tourist viewer mode, where you can do it with any gear, any skill and any IQ. It is NOT like that today, not even close.

I like some challenge, but all modes today are far too hard. Heroic nowadays is harder than most previous expansions Mythic difficulties, same with Normal today being harder than Heroic in the past.

And to me, I never ever valued difficulty. I prefer LFR difficulty, or like Molten Core in classic. The FUN comes from getting together, communicating, laughing, killing stuff together and just chilling. I get NOTHING out of pushing hard mechanics. I get that some do, but WoW, even Retail, is sort of a dadgamer boomer game by now, ALL difficulties are too hard for most of us. They don't cater to the majority anymore.

[Aydinx2]

But the facts say that game IS dying when it made for "hardcore" gamers only (more like nolifers to me).

This comes from someone who has quite a few CEs (not all, doh) and few glads/hotas.

Yet as the game is getting more and more content for casual players (you can get mythic raid ilvl gear by just doing dungeons, or legendaries by solo-ing Torghast), the lower the sub numbers are.

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LFR today is honestly 10 TIMES harder than LFR was in Dragon Soul, the first LFR we had. LFR is far too hard for what it should be. LFR should be the unfailable, unwipeable tourist viewer mode, where you can do it with any gear, any skill and any IQ. It is NOT like that today, not even close.

I like some challenge, but all modes today are far too hard. Heroic nowadays is harder than most previous expansions Mythic difficulties, same with Normal today being harder than Heroic in the past.

And to me, I never ever valued difficulty. I prefer LFR difficulty, or like Molten Core in classic. The FUN comes from getting together, communicating, laughing, killing stuff together and just chilling. I get NOTHING out of pushing hard mechanics. I get that some do, but WoW, even Retail, is sort of a dadgamer boomer game by now, ALL difficulties are too hard for most of us. They don't cater to the majority anymore.

Then it shouldn't give any rewards if it's just Tourist mode. Because if it does in a braindead tourism mode then you're literally getting rewarded for not even playing. And if you think that isn't inherently a bad thing then you don't understand how Videogames should work.

And if you think the game is too hard then honestly you should stop playing. I can't think of many games that are easier than WoW.

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15keys have a difficulty on par with heroic raiding.

Absolutely not lmao. Not even remotely close.
20 is closer to heroic raiding.

[Battlebeard]

Yet as the game is getting more and more content for casual players (you can get mythic raid ilvl gear by just doing dungeons, or legendaries by solo-ing Torghast), the lower the sub numbers are.

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Then it shouldn't give any rewards if it's just Tourist mode. Because if it does in a braindead tourism mode then you're literally getting rewarded for not even playing. And if you think that isn't inherently a bad thing then you don't understand how Videogames should work.

And if you think the game is too hard then honestly you should stop playing. I can't think of many games that are easier than WoW.

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Absolutely not lmao. Not even remotely close.
20 is closer to heroic raiding.

Why are you so against rewards for easy content? Why does the game have to be so elitistic and focused on "fairness". Don't wanna get too political, but I prefer a socialist game over a capitalist one, and we have the latter now. This game should be for everyone, everyone should be able to enjoy it and have fun, we all pay the same subscription. I hate the idea that some areas of the game are inaccessible for most of us, just cause we lack either skill or time.

[Chromell]

LFR should be the unfailable, unwipeable tourist viewer mode, where you can do it with any gear, any skill and any IQ. It is NOT like that today, not even close.

I like some challenge, but all modes today are far too hard.

You either want "unwipeable tourist viewer mode" or "some challenge" because both can't coexist as the same mode. If you're looking to see the story with no effort whatsoever put in it then you don't want a game, what you're looking for is an audiobook.

[Tyris Flare]

This is me exactly. Right now I have 17 alts, they're all 80, and by the end of the week they will all have their consoles maxed in ZM. I play 3 to 4 hours a night, 6 days a week, and 8-10 hours a day on weekends for a total of around 40 hours a week. I don't do mythic (forget keys), I don't pay for carries, and I don't raid. All of my characters are IL 249 to 252.

I consider myself a "hardcore casual".

This reads like a casual lifestyle player to me



I actually think this describes a lot of people on this forum who just don't want to admit it. The other major group here seems to be Hardcore Hobbyists who basically only want to raidlog.

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Yet as the game is getting more and more content for casual players (you can get mythic raid ilvl gear by just doing dungeons, or legendaries by solo-ing Torghast), the lower the sub numbers are.

Absolutely not lmao. Not even remotely close.
20 is closer to heroic raiding.

This entirely depends on the season. 20s were much harder in s1. Everything has shifted like 4-5 key levels

[Mardux]

I wasn’t lying I was just going off of this post from 19hours ago

https://www.wowhead.com/news/horde-h...of-this-327026

I’m so so very sorry that I didn’t fact check the wowhead post in order to catch those extra 2 guilds that finished. Those two guilds completely changed the discourse of the point I was making.

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I didn’t say today, because blizzard opened up a ton of their gearing processes because we are in the testing phase of the expansion. Anything that happens right now doesn’t reflect normal expansion experiences. I said at the beginning of the first mythic raid opening up.

Now you just listed off a laundry list of things for me to do just to reach heroic raiding content and you didn’t actually answer my question. You said it would take a month. It would take me a month of playing a couple hours a week? So let’s say I play 3-4 hours a week. You’re saying from level 50 at the time mythic castle nath opened up let’s say, it would have taken me at most 16 hours of gameplay to hit heroic/mythic raiding?

Huge doubt.



I have never played that game so I wouldn’t even know how to answer that. I mentioned destiny 2. I can answer that question very easily for you if you would like.

Ohhh. So you just choose to spout off outdated information rather than verifying it. Cool.

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Why are you so against rewards for easy content? Why does the game have to be so elitistic and focused on "fairness". Don't wanna get too political, but I prefer a socialist game over a capitalist one, and we have the latter now. This game should be for everyone, everyone should be able to enjoy it and have fun, we all pay the same subscription. I hate the idea that some areas of the game are inaccessible for most of us, just cause we lack either skill or time.

Where did they say they were against rewards for easy content? They didn't. They suggested not giving rewards for non-participation. And fr someone who claims they don't want to get political, you sure went out of your way to get political.

[potis]

I hate the idea that some areas of the game are inaccessible for most of us, just cause we lack either skill or time.

You are always so full of lies it gets annoying to read.

You dont want fairness, you just want the gear, you shown this before for years in your posts, you think are you entitled to it by existing because at some point in your life you got carried in a Mythic or HC pug and you believe you are some sort of special snowflake.

There is not a single area that is not accessible in the game, M+0, M+2 and M+15 all have the same abilities and colors and pixels on the bosses.

LFR is now the same, the way the bosses are designed they cant remove core abilities so you literally have almost 1:1 bosses with Heroic with their damage nerfed by 90% (well not Anduin for obvious reasons) which makes LFR harder but you see everything the game has to offer.

Compared to target dummies we have had in previous expansions with every ability almost disabled.

Enough with the lies, some of us -actually know how the game works-.

And because you guys dont get it cause apparently its hard to grasp.

Just because everything is called a MMORPG, doesnt mean it doesnt belong to a different subgenre, but thats too hard to grasp the last few years.

Go play the MMORPG with the free gear instead.

[Jinpachi]

You make some great points but I think there is already a similar thread that discusses it at the moment : https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ayer-base-quot

thanks, but we'll discuss it here in THIS one.

[Aydinx2]

Why are you so against rewards for easy content? Why does the game have to be so elitistic and focused on "fairness".

You call it elitism when really it is just common sense. In a videogame you're supposed to do something in order to get rewards. This isn't a movie that you can just watch and get through no matter what. A book doesn't go "well you misread that word so now you need to re-do the entire chapter".

I'm fine with LFR giving the rewards it currently gives (except tier armor, since it forces non-LFR players to play LFR). But if you want it to be easier, then the rewards need to be worse.

I hate the idea that some areas of the game are inaccessible for most of us, just cause we lack either skill or time.

Then you don't understand what videogames are for, and you are not the target audience of WoW. If you're unable to kill a boss, you don't get the rewards it drops. It's that simple. What gives value to rewards in videogames is that not everyone gets them. WoW has been giving better rewards for easier content for years now and the game has only been losing players.

You don't see me brag to my friends that I have a water tap in my home. If I had a coca-cola fountain I'd probably brag though.

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Do I expect 270+ gear to be handed to me? Of course not. Do I even need it for what I do? Of course not. Would it be nice to have so I can eventually two shot a random mob and not have to work so hard to get through my dailies or whatever crap I decide to decompress with? Sure. What's wrong with allowing me to improve my gear through a time investment rather than trying to force me into mythics and raiding? Make me work for it in other ways. What's wrong with getting a 272 chest or legs for turning in 100,000 bear asses that it took me months to farm? How does me *earning* that piece of gear the way I did, months after the raiders have gotten it, hurt anybody? My character shouldn't be viewed as awesome as yours because ... you're a better player? Got mad skillz? Seriously? Who cares? My running around killing some chickens with the same Sword of Badassery that you have actually diminishes a raider's enjoyment of game? Why?

If you don't find the "mad skillz" of someone with better gear impressive, what is blocking you from doing that same content and getting the gear? You sure seem to have a low opinion of people who get their gear in dungeons but then you can't seem to do the same?

You getting that gear for ZM content actually does diminish raiders enjoyment of the game. Rewards in WoW only have value if not everyone can get them, and that value is increased by the amount of effort it takes to obtain them. If some random guy gets 272 gear for finishing the ZM console, then the value of the loot in the raid becomes worse because you can get them with easier content. Why do you think people find a Glory of the X Raider mounts more impressive than a horse or wolf from a vendor in Orgrimmar? Because not everyone has them, and it took some effort to get it.

And like you said: you really don't need better than 250 for what you're doing. So why do you pretend like not getting 272 is a problem? The only explanation that exists for your comment is jealousy. If raiders didn't get 272 but also got the 250 you got from ZM, you wouldn't be complaining. But since they are getting something you can't, it's suddenly a problem.

[VMSmith]

I'm fine with LFR giving the rewards it currently gives (except tier armor, since it forces non-LFR players to play LFR).

Comments like this give me such a giggle. It's like, you can't even see your hypocrisy even when you state it within one sentence. Maybe it's more a lack of empathy or just the ability to see something from another person's viewpoint. Either way, this sentence is laughable.

[Xeerah]

LFR today is honestly 10 TIMES harder than LFR was in Dragon Soul .../snip

Have you done LFR in Mists?
I remember wiping on third boss in Heart of Fear for hours on LFR because some melees didnt read chat when people told them repeatedly not to stand in the circle directly under the boss.
He stomps a few times and everyone is dead - compare that to LFR now u can down the bosses with 1-2 reasonable dps, tanks and mb 1-2 healers who know what they are doing
I think its "tourist mode"
Make it easier and you could just remove the bosses altogether and just put a loot chest in it.
LFR should provide a minimal challenge aka have 1-2 mechanics but if u fail them it does not wipe the raid but at least do damage so that maybe 1-2 people die (mb just the ones which failed) but still be killeable with only 1/3 to half the raid alive
I think this is a good sweetspot

[Aydinx2]

Comments like this give me such a giggle. It's like, you can't even see your hypocrisy even when you state it within one sentence. Maybe it's more a lack of empathy or just the ability to see something from another person's viewpoint. Either way, this sentence is laughable.

And you did nothing to actually point out what you find wrong with the argument. You instead chose to attack me as a person instead of simply giving your counterpoint. Says a lot about you.

If you're doing LFR and nothing harder you don't need tier pieces. Period. But their dropping in LFR forces non-LFR players to play LFR because of how powerful the set bonuses are.

Do you see the problem here? Nobody is forcing LFR players to do harder content, but people who do harder content are forced to do LFR, which is absolute garbage because most people can't even find their damage buttons.

Clearly the hypocrite is you if you think it's fine to force people to do content they don't want to. But if it were up to me LFR as a difficulty wouldn't exist at all, because it gives birth to players who suddenly feel entitled to the rewards from harder raids simply because they managed to click a "Join Queue" button.

[Lex Icon]

And you did nothing to actually point out what you find wrong with the argument. You instead chose to attack me as a person instead of simply giving your counterpoint. Says a lot about you.

If you're doing LFR and nothing harder you don't need tier pieces. Period. But their dropping in LFR forces non-LFR players to play LFR because of how powerful the set bonuses are.

Do you see the problem here? Nobody is forcing LFR players to do harder content, but people who do harder content are forced to do LFR, which is absolute garbage because most people can't even find their damage buttons.

Clearly the hypocrite is you if you think it's fine to force people to do content they don't want to. But if it were up to me LFR as a difficulty wouldn't exist at all, because it gives birth to players who suddenly feel entitled to the rewards from harder raids simply because they managed to click a "Join Queue" button.

you're kinda just arguing for reasons for blizz to spend less on raids. the more people who sign up to do lfr the more justified the cost of making the raids is.
if there's no reason for anyone to do lfr you'll suddenly find yourself with less money spent on your raids.
so if you feel forced to do lfr to get an edge i'd say that's a small price to pay.

[Aydinx2]

you're kinda just arguing for reasons for blizz to spend less on raids. the more people who sign up to do lfr the more justified the cost of making the raids is.
if there's no reason for anyone to do lfr you'll suddenly find yourself with less money spent on your raids.
so if you feel forced to do lfr to get an edge i'd say that's a small price to pay.

That makes literally no sense when LFR has not existed for the majority of WoW's lifetime.
And not having LFR drop tier does not mean people don't have a reason to do LFR. They were doing LFR just fine in 9.0 and 9.1. What's changed that they suddenly would not do LFR without tier drops?

[Dawnseven]

You call it elitism when really it is just common sense. In a videogame you're supposed to do something in order to get rewards. This isn't a movie that you can just watch and get through no matter what. A book doesn't go "well you misread that word so now you need to re-do the entire chapter".

I'm fine with LFR giving the rewards it currently gives (except tier armor, since it forces non-LFR players to play LFR). But if you want it to be easier, then the rewards need to be worse.



Then you don't understand what videogames are for, and you are not the target audience of WoW. If you're unable to kill a boss, you don't get the rewards it drops. It's that simple. What gives value to rewards in videogames is that not everyone gets them. WoW has been giving better rewards for easier content for years now and the game has only been losing players.

You don't see me brag to my friends that I have a water tap in my home. If I had a coca-cola fountain I'd probably brag though.

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If you don't find the "mad skillz" of someone with better gear impressive, what is blocking you from doing that same content and getting the gear? You sure seem to have a low opinion of people who get their gear in dungeons but then you can't seem to do the same?

You getting that gear for ZM content actually does diminish raiders enjoyment of the game. Rewards in WoW only have value if not everyone can get them, and that value is increased by the amount of effort it takes to obtain them. If some random guy gets 272 gear for finishing the ZM console, then the value of the loot in the raid becomes worse because you can get them with easier content. Why do you think people find a Glory of the X Raider mounts more impressive than a horse or wolf from a vendor in Orgrimmar? Because not everyone has them, and it took some effort to get it.

And like you said: you really don't need better than 250 for what you're doing. So why do you pretend like not getting 272 is a problem? The only explanation that exists for your comment is jealousy. If raiders didn't get 272 but also got the 250 you got from ZM, you wouldn't be complaining. But since they are getting something you can't, it's suddenly a problem.

Meh. I actually don't find it "impressive" at all. Maybe that's the difference. You pay your $15 in support of Blizzard and the game, and you play the content you like to play, the way you like to play it (casual, competitive, whatever). I don't care. You're the best X-class on your server? Kudos. You and I aren't going to cross paths unless you happen to buy something of mine on the AH (in which case, "thanks!"). I'm not jealous of your gear. I'm not jealous of your mount. I'm not jealous of whatever the hell your achievement score is. I just don't care. Nothing about what *I* do has anything to do with you. I want some opportunity to improve my gear to get through my dailies and run older raids for fun and profit faster doing the thinks I like to do (which again, does not include raiding, PvP or mythic keys).

I pay my $15 a month too, I support the game, and I play the content I want to. I have every recipe for every crafting profession and I work the living crap out of the AH, I'm top 3 on my server for collecting pets, I have the Esteemed title for 100 exalted reps. So what? None of that took any particular skill. It just took time and effort, and I don't see why effort, in any form, shouldn't be rewarded in some way. You'll get the higher ilvl gear sooner because you did the level of content that gave you access to it quicker. I'm a tortoise, you're a hare. Why does my getting to the finish line (272+) bother you so much? Do you think that just because I finally hit 272 I'm going to start jumping into your rated matches or your key runs and/or ruining raid night? No. Why? Because I don't DO any of that stuff and don't enjoy it. 272 gear isn't going to suddenly make any of that fun for me, but I think I deserve to be rewarded for my effort (such as it is) nonetheless because while it isn't the same kind of time and effort you invested, it was time and effort nonetheless.

Maybe try to think of a similar situation, but in a different context. Look at a low wage earner. Maybe they're unloading trucks, hauling mulch, cleaning hotel rooms, sacking groceries and collecting carts ... whatever. Does that person not "work"? If that person saves for several years and finally saves enough in 2024 to buy a 2018 Infiniti with 200,000 miles on it, are they not deserving of that car because you happened to work hard yourself, doing a different job that paid better, and you bought your Infiniti brand new off the lot in '18? Do you think people are comparing you to that low wage earner when you both get out of your matching Infiniti's in the grocery store parking lot at the same time? Does the low wage earner buying the same car 6 years later strip all the enjoyment you ever got out of yours? Does it diminish your "accomplishment"?