STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[Skildar]

How would you compare two identical characters, with identical gear, and identical specs, with literally the only difference being that one character had 20 ilvls over the other (identical stats on gear, identical gear, just higher ilvl versions of the same gear)? Remember, you are ONLY trying to see the difference the 20 ilvls make - nothing else.

my bad I misunderstood the situation.
I'm not sure I've ever found myself looking for the answer. I guess I would never know because a lot of different gear pieces provide different output gains. Weapons and trinkets are really strong pieces compared to wrists for instance.

Comparing two sims should give you two figures that you can divide for an approximate answer of the % of output gained.

Why would you be interested in this figure ? That's the real question ^^

[arkanon]

my bad I misunderstood the situation.
I'm not sure I've ever found myself looking for the answer. I guess I would never know because a lot of different gear pieces provide different output gains. Weapons and trinkets are really strong pieces compared to wrists for instance.

Comparing two sims should give you two figures that you can divide for an approximate answer of the % of output gained.

Why would you be interested in this figure ? That's the real question ^^

Because the discussion at hand appeared when players started crying that a 20 ilvl difference between two identical players resulted in a 50% or more difference in output. Ion was being interviewed by preach (iirc) and stated that the data does NOT support this, and that the data very clearly shows an approximately 1% gain in output per 1ilvl gained. He went on to say the most likely difference in those 50% scenarios is player skill. This set off a LOT of players who had been hiding behind the gear gap as an excuse for their poor performance. This was made worse when MANY community members ran sims on their toons with identical loot - the only difference being what VERSION (ilvl) it was, and the results of the 20ilvl difference ranged between just over 19% and just under 21%, confirming what Ion had said. This REALLY upset some already very upset players, as they now couldnt hide behind the ilvl gap any more.

Like i said, using a sim for comparison only works in very specific scenarios, and this is one of them.

- - - Updated - - -

You don’t seem to understand how that fallacy works or what hearsay is. I can’t help you at this point if you’re going to be deliberately obtuse and superfluous.

Hearsay is using information that cannot be substantiated - this information CAN be substantiated, either by looking up the results of other peoples testing, or for an even more reliable source, do the test yourself. It can be substantiated = it is NOT hearsay.

Nothing stated so far involves an appeal to authority, his role within the company has only been brought up by YOU - no one else has used it as a reason to believe him, and he himself did not use his position within the company to support his claims. And again, if you dont trust him, and dont believe him, DO THE TEST FOR YOURSELF.

[munkeyinorbit]

I strongly disagree. Saying someone is right because of who they are is appeal to authority fallacy. Saying “people” have proven it right is hearsay.

Hahaha. Nice own goal. You are the one who said he was wrong because of who he is. When you reply to comments do you just black out so you forget what you said previously?

Still waiting in your source where the same gear with a 20 ilvl inc is a 50% inc.

[Necromantic]

Because the discussion at hand appeared when players started crying that a 20 ilvl difference between two identical players resulted in a 50% or more difference in output. Ion was being interviewed by preach (iirc) and stated that the data does NOT support this, and that the data very clearly shows an approximately 1% gain in output per 1ilvl gained. He went on to say the most likely difference in those 50% scenarios is player skill. This set off a LOT of players who had been hiding behind the gear gap as an excuse for their poor performance. This was made worse when MANY community members ran sims on their toons with identical loot - the only difference being what VERSION (ilvl) it was, and the results of the 20ilvl difference ranged between just over 19% and just under 21%, confirming what Ion had said. This REALLY upset some already very upset players, as they now couldnt hide behind the ilvl gap any more.

Like i said, using a sim for comparison only works in very specific scenarios, and this is one of them.

- - - Updated - - -



Hearsay is using information that cannot be substantiated - this information CAN be substantiated, either by looking up the results of other peoples testing, or for an even more reliable source, do the test yourself. It can be substantiated = it is NOT hearsay.

Nothing stated so far involves an appeal to authority, his role within the company has only been brought up by YOU - no one else has used it as a reason to believe him, and he himself did not use his position within the company to support his claims. And again, if you dont trust him, and dont believe him, DO THE TEST FOR YOURSELF.

So you admit you don’t know what hearsay is. If you would have just admitted to begin with, you would have saved yourself being in an awkward situation.

[munkeyinorbit]

That’s not how that fallacy works, I’m afraid. And we are taking about him, not you. Unless you’re trying the same thing. If so, be my guest.

And saying “you can do it yourself” is a weak argument. Asking for a source is not weak.

You need sources when you make a claim. You don't need sources for accepted knowledge. What you are doing is like saying that the earth is flat and then asking people to prove that it isn't, even though the method to find out for yourself as well as all of the documentation and data to say the earth isn't flat is right there in Google.

Try again buddy.

- - - Updated - - -

So you admit you don’t know what hearsay is. If you would have just admitted to begin with, you would have saved yourself being in an awkward situation.

This coming from a guy who doesn't know when he needs to cite sources for an argument. Awkward.

[Animaneth]

To be fair, I personally think this is a knock-on effect of Blizzard's strange insistence on having finding a guild be one of the most unintuitive, cumbersome and often times flat-out anti-social journeys a player can embark upon. They do not give players any tools to find guilds (there's the guild finder technically but it's a joke). You either know somebody who knows somebody or you broadcast on third party websites in the hope a recruitment officer sees you. I think a lot of this games' issues with raiding in general could be solved if Blizzard just sat down and created a UI element for guild recruitment which helped match like-minded players with one another.

Why would Blizzard change the game like that? if you can't find a guild but you are still willing to play the game, they will receive compensation from you xfering to another server, or going solo and "lose" time, eventually you start playing less and less and you cancel, but until you quit you still pay your subscription, meaning Blizz still earns money, so what we see is a conflict of interest, Blizz does not change some clearly shitty part of the game because they still get your money.

[arkanon]

So you admit you don’t know what hearsay is. If you would have just admitted to begin with, you would have saved yourself being in an awkward situation.

This is from the Oxford Dictionary: "information received from other people which cannot be substantiated"

Like i said, not only can it be substantiated, the test and results can be replicated by you - just load up a sim, put the same gear in, and boom - same result. The information and its source CAN be substantiated, so it is NOT hearsay.

You need to stop with the flat earther "logic".

[Necromantic]

This is from the Oxford Dictionary: "information received from other people which cannot be substantiated"

Like i said, not only can it be substantiated, the test and results can be replicated by you - just load up a sim, put the same gear in, and boom - same result. The information and its source CAN be substantiated, so it is NOT hearsay.

Ok, substantiate it. Telling someone “do it yourself “ is not substantiating it. Claiming “they” or “them” did it cannot be substantiated.

You’re wrong and I honestly think you know you are. No shame, not here to embarrass you.

[arkanon]

Ok, substantiate it. Telling someone “do it yourself “ is not substantiating it. Claiming “they” or “them” did it cannot be substantiated.

You’re wrong and I honestly think you know you are. No shame, not here to embarrass you.

Wrong again - it does not say it must be substantiated, it simply says hearsay is when something CAN NOT be substantiated - and all of this can be - by you - you are simply choosing not to. You are doing this because you know what you will find if you go looking.

[Necromantic]

Wrong again - it does not say it must be substantiated, it simply says hearsay is when something CAN NOT be substantiated - and all of this can be - by you - you are simply choosing not to. You are doing this because you know what you will find if you go looking.

You keep proving you don’t know what that word means.

Joe already proved it was wrong. His cousin said so too on this forum. Her roommate confirmed it.

[arkanon]

You keep proving you don’t know what that word means.

Joe already proved it was wrong. His cousin said so too on this forum. Her roommate confirmed it.

Those are examples of hearsay because they cannot be substantiated - you can literally load a sim right now and substantiate all the claims made. You could also find countless sources of other people doing the same thing. You choosing to ignore all of that, and choosing not to run the test yourself does not make all that other data hearsay. You are very confused. Its over.

[Necromantic]

Those are examples of hearsay because they cannot be substantiated - you can literally load a sim right now and substantiate all the claims made. You could also find countless sources of other people doing the same thing. You choosing to ignore all of that, and choosing not to run the test yourself does not make all that other data hearsay. You are very confused. Its over.

They can be substantiated.

You’re slipping and you’re trying to grasp at straws.

[xskarma]

Enough of this. Get on topic and stay there.

[arkanon]

I believe designing the game around or for a tiny percentage of the playerbase would be a huge mistake. I also FIRMLY believe that is NOT the case with wow. WoW arguably has substantially MORE content for the 99% compared to the 1%, although much of the 99% feel they are "locked out" of the 1%, which has been proven false time and time again. It is proven false daily, as a player tries mythic raiding for the first time, or gets CE for the first time - those are players who were once part of the 99%, and can now say they are part of the 1%.

I did it (many many years ago) and nearly everyone i raided with for a decade did the same - they didnt START in the 1% - they worked on it and eventually got to that level through practice, patience, and perseverance. I cannot understand people who claim mythic raiding is "gated" or that they are locked out from it, when every day someone tries it for the first time, breaking through an apparently impenetrable ceiling.

[ellieg]

I believe designing the game around or for a tiny percentage of the playerbase would be a huge mistake. I also FIRMLY believe that is NOT the case with wow. WoW arguably has substantially MORE content for the 99% compared to the 1%, although much of the 99% feel they are "locked out" of the 1%, which has been proven false time and time again. It is proven false daily, as a player tries mythic raiding for the first time, or gets CE for the first time - those are players who were once part of the 99%, and can now say they are part of the 1%.

I did it (many many years ago) and nearly everyone i raided with for a decade did the same - they didnt START in the 1% - they worked on it and eventually got to that level through practice, patience, and perseverance. I cannot understand people who claim mythic raiding is "gated" or that they are locked out from it, when every day someone tries it for the first time, breaking through an apparently impenetrable ceiling.

I'm also curious what part of the "99%" is super upset with not having bis. Theres abt 5 or so ppl on this site that would have you believe that there's a mass exodus of players from this game, and that almost all of them are casuals who left because they can't get bis or that they are locked out of content.

I've heard claims that 50% of ppl don't do either rated pvp, m+, or normal and up raids. Of these 50%, I have to assume they are exploring, doing pet battles, transmog or mount farming, doing WQ. What % of these players actually want higher ilvl gear?

[arkanon]

I'm also curious what part of the "99%" is super upset with not having bis. Theres abt 5 or so ppl on this site that would have you believe that there's a mass exodus of players from this game, and that almost all of them are casuals who left because they can't get bis or that they are locked out of content.

I've heard claims that 50% of ppl don't do either rated pvp, m+, or normal and up raids. Of these 50%, I have to assume they are exploring, doing pet battles, transmog or mount farming, doing WQ. What % of these players actually want higher ilvl gear?

Lets be real, there are extreme opinions on both "sides" of this discussion - some who proudly proclaim themselves part of the top 0.00000000001% of players who claim anyone outside mythic raiders dont deserve any loot. And others who literally want world quests where you get 1 BiS item per flower you pick (and no, im not exaggerating, they claimed this would be a welcome change and positive for all casual players).

I think its usually best to exclude such extreme and obviously intentionally confrontational 'opinions' as it does no good for anyone involved in the discussion to give them much time.

[Rixarius]

I actually got into a rather lengthy discussion with an old raiding buddy of mine about the topic of WoW being "too hard" nowadays. I kick myself to say it... but I feel like it's true. I've seen the game change a whole lot over the years, but it has certainly gotten more and more difficult, presumably to keep up with what addons can do for you. I love a good challenge, but the difficulty of Mythic raiding has just caused burnout and fatigue for the layman's guild. Maybe there is something to be said about the most prestigious content being reserved for the most prestigious players, but I feel like the top end of Mythic is just a tad *too* tightly tuned.

[munkeyinorbit]

I'm also curious what part of the "99%" is super upset with not having bis. Theres abt 5 or so ppl on this site that would have you believe that there's a mass exodus of players from this game, and that almost all of them are casuals who left because they can't get bis or that they are locked out of content.

I've heard claims that 50% of ppl don't do either rated pvp, m+, or normal and up raids. Of these 50%, I have to assume they are exploring, doing pet battles, transmog or mount farming, doing WQ. What % of these players actually want higher ilvl gear?

According to this site, all of them want it. There are dozens of threads of people who do non group activities calling blizzard out for being casual unfriendly and complaining because they don't get mythic level gear.

I'm playing casual right now. Maybe 3 to 5 hours a week because I still have some gold. I have absolutely no intention of raiding, no intention of gearing through 15s and I'm sitting at about 250 ilvl on three toons. I do some dailies to slowly get my rep up, I run some low mythic + to get some 260ish and I target LFR token bosses. I absolutely punish the world content and feel no envy for the guys running around with 270 ilvl I still have stuff to do because blizzard has made it so easy for casuals to do things. This game is made for the 99% in mind.

[arkanon]

I actually got into a rather lengthy discussion with an old raiding buddy of mine about the topic of WoW being "too hard" nowadays. I kick myself to say it... but I feel like it's true. I've seen the game change a whole lot over the years, but it has certainly gotten more and more difficult, presumably to keep up with what addons can do for you. I love a good challenge, but the difficulty of Mythic raiding has just caused burnout and fatigue for the layman's guild. Maybe there is something to be said about the most prestigious content being reserved for the most prestigious players, but I feel like the top end of Mythic is just a tad *too* tightly tuned.

I have seen more and more people come out saying this, and it SEEMS to have started around legion. I remember SoO. I had a friends and family guild we raided with on saturdays. When flex was released, it was AMAZING - people who previously were a real anchor for the group didnt really hold us back - with a couple of exceptions, it was very easy. Each saturday we worked further and further through the raid, starting fresh each week, until we had cleared it. It was really smooth sailing - shamans was a BIT of a block, keeping us busy for nearly 2 hours, and the final couple were the same. But this was a group MOSTLY full of people with little to no raiding experience, and a few experienced players on terribly geared alts.

That same group of players started to fumble late in legion, although we did get through. They had a really hard time in BfA, and most quit - not JUST because of the difficulty, but they no longer found it FUN, but more of a chore. If those palyers were to get together, with no experience or knowledge of the fights (how it was in SoO) and try to take on any of the raids from SL on normal, I doubt they would get more than a few bosses down before the same thing happened.

It seems glaringly obvious to me that there has been a substantial increase in difficulty over the last few expansions, but im not sure what the cause is. Sure, Mythic has increased in difficulty too, but the fights are generally quite different between normal and mythic, so im not sure how its happening. I dont know anyone who is asking for HARD normal mode raids, or even harder normal mode raids - it doesnt make any sense - if you want harder normal raids, go do heroic.

Me personally not finding the raids challenging on lower difficulties does not blind me to the overall increase in difficulty - i raided with the same casual players on off nights for nearly 15 years and watched and listened to them over the last few expansions start to struggle and explain WHY they find it so challenging, but not a single one of us has been able to figure out why Blizzard would do that.

I know you are speaking about mythic, but im trying to point out its not ONLY mythic that has been impacted - if anything, its the lower difficulties that have a greater impact of the overall health of the game as it impacts a far larger section of the community. I will also say that mythic is supposed to be the hardest PvE content in the game, so there is some excuse for them making it hard. I see no logical reason for making the entry level raid difficulties so challenging for beginners though, i see NO positive outcome at all for the players, or for Blizzard.

edit: dont kick yourself - there is nothing wrong with stating your opinion that its got harder, or that you dont like the increase in difficulty. Thats totally fine.

[Rixarius]

I have never been top of the top. I have a few cutting edge achievements under my belt, but they were usually obtained during the last few weeks of a raid tier. I agree that the shift seemed to happen around Legion. My guild was mostly comprised of long-time raiding buddies and friends. There were some notable gaps in skill, but nobody really cared because we were able to clear content. Our best players always made up for those who were maybe a little bit too busy with life to stay at the top of their game. Then Legion rolled around. Emerald Nightmare was an easy clear, and like most guilds we killed Mythic Xavius with plenty of time to spare. However, going into Nighthold and ESPECIALLY into Tomb of Sargeras, the difficulty shot up dramatically. Personal responsibility became such a tax in raiding. Our top half could no longer carry our bottom half through the content. And when I say bottom half, these weren't bad players. They just weren't getting any legendary parses and maybe couldn't spend as long in M+ as everyone else. Parents, business owners... raid loggers. Fantastic people and perfectly capable at piloting their spec, just not as dedicated as us no-lifers at the top. It just didn't become as glaring of an issue until Tomb of Sargeras, really.

We hit a brick wall on Mistress Saszine Mythic. That fight was just a storm of mechanics, noise, and stuff you weren't supposed to stand in. As we got even further into the tier, there was some animosity building at our GM for not finding fresh blood to get into these fights because the same few people caused 70% of our wipes. However, the guild had been raiding for 6 years at that point with those people always showing up to raid nights and being generally awesome people to play with. After a few weeks of "progressing" on Avatar of Sargeras Mythic, we decided to stop raiding for the tier. After a few months, the guild essentially disbanded. New leadership took over, the roster was all new, but that iteration fell apart shortly after getting into Antorus. I quit after that, and didn't return in any real capacity until mid-Shadowlands. And now, apparently, the new raid is even harder than what I was going up against in Legion.

I think that Mythic should be hard -- no doubt. Maybe I am a conspiracy theorist, but I feel like the spotlight that the race to world first has gotten has caused Blizzard to tune these fights too tightly so that it's a longer, more drawn out affair instead of a 3-day stomp. But if I am having to commit 200+ wipes on half of the raid tier, that's just a tad too much for me.