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  1. #281
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChairmanKaga View Post
    I mean that ship has sailed if the Old Gods on Azeroth are "cosmic" then anything Titan would likewise count even it's just watchers and facilities that Dragonflight most definitely will have.
    It has since Blizzard considers Dragons to be linked to cosmic forces. Ulduar was pretty much the same as Zereth Mortis. Just replace Titans with First Ones and it is the same type of story. Cosmic beings doing stuff. There are a lot of people that still think of Warcraft lore as locked into Warcraft 1 while it ignores how WoW hasn't been that since Vanilla. Everything after Vanilla went heavy on the cosmic stuff because that is the foundation of the lore and reason why Azeroth is important and having all of these things happen.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Because you keep pushing that "Gnolls, Centaur, and Djardin" as the things that High Fantasy is about. You purposefully keep implying that High Fantasy doesn't include cosmic stuff.
    What are you still arguing about really?

    I have said in the last 3 replies to you that I don't think High Fantasy doesn't exclude cosmic stuff. You keep pushing this strawman saying I'm purposefully keep implying that High Fantasy doesn't include cosmic stuff. Here's some past quotes from me.

    As I said, I think you're twisting how the Devs want to focus on Dragonflight into meaning there are not going to be any cosmic connection to the expansion at all, and that's not what was being said at all. Just like I can say Wrath was focused on Arthas and the Scourge, and that does not exclude the addition of an Old God raid in between. Wrath was still very much focused on the Scourge threat, even if it has cosmic connections through Old Gods and Algalon.

    ---

    Why are you regarding Murozond any differently here just because I made an example of him being a Raid villain? If Blizzard simply wants to focus on Nozdormu's story as a part of 10.3, then that's what it is. It doesn't suddenly root the rest of Dragonflight as a 'Cosmic' expansion. We're just talking about resolving a Bronze Dragonflight storyline in one of the major raids; with this example being the final raid before our next major adventure.

    ---

    And I disagree with you saying High Fantasy means no cosmic stuff. Blizzard says they aren't focusing on the Cosmic Forces. That is different from excluding all Cosmic related themes or threats. If they make the direct comparison to Mists of Pandaria, which you admit featured Cosmic threats as an underlying part of its entire theme, then I think they aren't talking about removing all cosmic-related threats from the equation. They merely want Dragon Isles to start with us exploring the regular races before we identify the greater enemies, and from there anything is game. Just like we had with most other expansions like Wrath, Mists of Pandaria and so forth. Because you know what is also High Fantasy? Wrath and Mists of Pandaria.

    No where do I say High Fantasy doesn't include cosmic stuff. I simply said I don't think having Murozond as an end villain constitutes the entire expansion being rendered a 'Cosmic expansion' as you were implying. Everything I've said after that is reinforcing these points.

    I'm not the one flipflopping conflicting arguments here, buddy.

    His origins involve cosmic threats. So focus on his story and how he becomes Murozond would conflict with the "Dev's intents on 'not being cosmic'."
    Which I've clearly stated is your own interpretation. Your interpretation is not any definitive way how the Devs evaluate Murozond.

    I have clearly stated I disagree with your interpretation. Would you like to keep repeating what you're saying or try something new that we can actually discuss? It's really up to you, because I'm not beholden to changing my opinion about how I think your interpretation is wrong.

    When you really get down to it, all Dragons have a history and connection to cosmic forces. So saying the "Dev's intent on 'not being cosmic'" is itself a contradiction, because this entire expansion is ultimately about Dragons.

    I do not think the Dev's mission statement excludes Old God shenanigans. I do not think their mission statement excludes exploring Murozond or Galakrond or Chromatus as potential major villains. I do not think a focus on High Fantasy excludes any potential cosmic-related themes that may be connected back to Dragonflight expansion. I'm pretty clear on my stance.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-04-27 at 07:07 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  3. #283
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I have said in the last 3 replies to you that I don't think High Fantasy doesn't exclude cosmic stuff. You keep pushing this strawman saying I'm purposefully keep implying that High Fantasy doesn't include cosmic stuff. Here's some past quotes from me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    not conflicting with the Dev's intents on 'not being cosmic'.
    Yet you keep pushing that the devs intent is to not be cosmic. While keep referecning non-cosmic high fantasy stuff only. You keep making statements just to turn around and whine about me holding you to those statements afterwards.

    Which I've clearly stated is your own interpretation.
    Funny. I didn't think I wrote the lore. Nozdormu turned into Murozond in order to protect against a threat greater then the old gods. There is no way to interpret that other then cosmic-related because of the level of threat being talked about.

    So saying the "Dev's intent on 'not being cosmic'" is itself a contradiction, because this entire expansion is ultimately about Dragons.
    Right. Yet you said in your very last post that the dev's intent was to not be cosmic and how things don't conflict with that. Which is their intent? To have cosmic things or not be cosmic? You can't argue it both ways with out being a hypocrite.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Yet you keep pushing that the devs intent is to not be cosmic.
    https://www.pcgamesn.com/world-of-wa...onflight-story

    Cosmic forces have always been part of the Warcraft universe – there have always been titans in a pantheon, cosmological forces at play, and light versus void.

    For many players, though, what drew them into World of Warcraft and what kept them there is going through Elwynn Forest and dealing with Gnolls that are marauding there. You know, facing Onyxia, dragons, and core high fantasy concepts. That’s, without question, what we are aiming to return to with Dragonflight.
    - Ion Hazzikostas

    The Devs were talking about a return to High Fantasy concepts, with exploration of Cosmic forces themes left open in the future. It's not something that *I'm* pushing. It's a statement that they have made and that we are now interpreting the meaning of.

    You misunderstood my point. What else is there to say?


    While keep referecning non-cosmic high fantasy stuff only.
    Then consider this a clean slate.

    Do you consider Murozond off the table because he is cosmic? I don't consider him cosmic at all, and I think he is still on the table.

    You keep making statements just to turn around and whine about me holding you to those statements afterwards.
    I'm not the one who complained about Murozond and came up with a bunch of cosmic reasons to not have him in Dragonflight, buddy.

    You replied to me first. If you didn't want to engage in a discussion or get any replies, maybe you shouldn't have addressed my statements about Murozond in the first place. What do you expect really, for me to suddenly accept your interpretations which I fully disagree with?

    What do you think your goal is here?

    Funny. I didn't think I wrote the lore. Nozdormu turned into Murozond in order to protect against a threat greater then the old gods. There is no way to interpret that other then cosmic-related because of the level of threat being talked about.
    Then that's your problem. You're admitting that you have a limited interpretation of what 'cosmic-related' means, and you can only see one way to define Murozond. What more can I say? I can't change how you wish to perceive the lore, nor do I care to. All I can say is I disagree with your interpretation, while offering my own take. And from there we can choose to agree to disagree and move on.

    Obviously if we're looking at the same thing written in the lore and we have two different views on the same issue, then we're in disagreement. I'm absolutely fine with leaving it at that, because I don't think either of us are beholden to changing our point of view.

    As I said earlier, there's literally nothing left to discuss here. I do not think Murozond is a cosmic force. I do not think the Devs are intending to exclude him from potentially appearing as a major villain in this expansion.

    Right. Yet you said in your very last post that the dev's intent was to not be cosmic and how things don't conflict with that. Which is their intent? To have cosmic things or not be cosmic? You can't argue it both ways with out being a hypocrite.
    I interpret their mission statement as an intent to explain the purpose of 10.0. That's what I interpret. Are they talking about the full entirity of Dragonflight as an expansion and it's end villains? I do not think they are addressing this at all.

    This is why I said at the very beginning that they could explore Chromatus, Galakrond and Murozond as potential major villains. Because they can. I do not consider any of these villains as Cosmic forces.

    So if you have problems with what I've explained as my point of view, then I'm fine with that too. We are allowed to disagree and have different opinions.

    However, I simply won't stand to have you twist my words into implying things I *did not* say, such as High Fantasy = not including Cosmic themes. That would be your own misunderstanding and your projected argument that I did not make.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-04-27 at 10:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  5. #285
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Do you consider Murozond off the table because he is cosmic? I don't consider him cosmic at all, and I think he is still on the table.
    So you haven't been paying attention for any of this discussion. You keep trying to reset things and expect some kind of different result. Not to mention you keep trying to gate keep with "what else can be said" or "you replied first".

    Then that's your problem and your lack of understanding of the lore
    No. It has nothing to do with my understanding. The lore clearly states that a threat bigger then the old gods is related to the creation of Murozond. So that means cosmic-level stuff. If something above the Old Gods is not cosmic then nothing in the warcraft lore will every be cosmic.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    superfluous stuff
    I'm going to be frank, I think you're fighting a lost cause. I've tried arguing with Rhorle and I think they're likely a new (or old, provided they've been here for a while) breed of other posters we've seen about. It seems like the continuous pattern exists that any argument is only a vehicle for circumlocutory garbage and often accusations of bias or questions of motive. It's usually not worth it to engage with certain users, especially those whose posting follows a verifiable pattern which exists to draw out unfulfilling and meaningless arguments to accomplish often-nebulous goals with vague enough definitions that anything can be retroactively transformed into evidence when the goalpost moves. We're essentially dealing with somebody who argues about highly-subjective things from an alleged perspective of objectivity and compounds this with bad-faith argumentation and an obstinate insistence on using the list of logical fallacies as a grocery list.

    This is a fruitless endeavor. It reminds me a bit of a Jean-Paul Sartre quote:

    “Never believe that (Rhorle is) completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. (Rhorle has) the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So you haven't been paying attention for any of this discussion. You keep trying to reset things and expect some kind of different result. Not to mention you keep trying to gate keep with "what else can be said" or "you replied first".
    If there's nothing left to discuss, then you talking doesn't really open up something new to discuss. We're just circling and you know it.

    What is there to pay attention to? You constantly repeating that you think Murozond is Cosmic Level threat? Yeah, I heard you the first time. Repeating it doesn't change anything.

    No. It has nothing to do with my understanding of the lore.
    It sure does, considering you're not taking any effort to accept that other people have other interpretations of the same lore.

    Lore is ambiguous. Intentionally so. There are multiple ways to interpret the same events. Some people think Arthas was always evil. Some people think he was good and was corrupted. Some people think that he was driven to evil deeds only as a means to an end for a greater good. Whatever the case, these are all valid interpretations of the lore, and there is no one right or wrong answer.

    If you simply tolerate my point of view as being something different from yours, you'd be fine. Except for whatever reason, you have hangups and think you need to school someone for not seeing things the way you understand it. You think the lore is definitive and that there's only one way to interpret it. Well, as I said from the beginning - I disagree with your interpretation, and I think you lack an understanding that the lore is absolute up to interpretation.

    Does this make sense to you? You've made this discussion all about you. We're no longer talking about what Hazzikostas meant when he was talking about cosmic forces and their mission statement. This is all about your own personal interpretation of what Old Gods and Murozond are, and how you're unable to fathom anyone else interpreting them other than a Cosmic force, and having to argue against them. You're going nowhere with this because at the end of the day, I will still disagree with your interpretation, no matter how many times you repeat the same opinion.

    I can respect your enthusiasm, but honestly a broken record is only amusing for so long.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    I'm going to be frank, I think you're fighting a lost cause. I've tried arguing with Rhorle and I think they're likely a new (or old, provided they've been here for a while) breed of other posters we've seen about. It seems like the continuous pattern exists that any argument is only a vehicle for circumlocutory garbage and often accusations of bias or questions of motive. It's usually not worth it to engage with certain users, especially those whose posting follows a verifiable pattern which exists to draw out unfulfilling and meaningless arguments to accomplish often-nebulous goals with vague enough definitions that anything can be retroactively transformed into evidence when the goalpost moves. We're essentially dealing with somebody who argues about highly-subjective things from an alleged perspective of objectivity and compounds this with bad-faith argumentation and an obstinate insistence on using the list of logical fallacies as a grocery list.

    This is a fruitless endeavor. It reminds me a bit of a Jean-Paul Sartre quote:

    “Never believe that (Rhorle is) completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. (Rhorle has) the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”
    To be honest, I've argued with him before on other topics, mainly from the TV show subforum.

    I know what I'm getting into. I have a grasp of what I'm dealing with, and it isn't anything based on logic, it's him being defensive on a subject he thinks he has to defend. At the end of the day it doesn't really even matter, and I'm here to argue and bicker with people just as anyone else in this forum. It's what it's here for. I'm just wasting time like anyone else discussing things that don't matter.

    I think there's always merit in these discussions, because I can always learn to be more patient myself, or find more ways around trying to improve my own communication in efforts to discuss topics that I disagree with others about.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-04-27 at 10:18 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  8. #288
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    We're just circling and you know it.
    So are you. Why is it that you keep infering I'm bad when you are equally culpable?

    It sure does, considering you're not taking any effort to accept that other people have other interpretations of the same lore. If you simply tolerate my point of view as being something different from yours, you'd be fine. Except for whatever reason, you have hangups and think you need to school someone for not seeing things the way you understand it.
    You interpreting it differently doesn't change what the lore is about and referencing though. If you don't consider the Titans to be cosmic level then that is fine but that wouldn't actually change them from being cosmic level in the lore. Just as a person doesn't have to consider Void vs Light to be a cosmic themed expansion but it still would be.

    I've even provided you supporting evidence that Blizzard considers Titans and Dragons as cosmically linked and cosmic things. Just because they haven't explicitly stated that for Old Gods doesn't mean anything because it is clear what Blizzard considers to be cosmic from their own words. Which further shows that your interpretation isn't correct and shouldn't be humored.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So are you. Why is it that you keep infering I'm bad when you are equally culpable?
    Because at no point am I denying your interpretation.

    I've been clear that I'm merely disagreeing with your interprettation. It's up to you if you choose to accept it or carry on arguing, not me.

    You interpreting it differently doesn't change what the lore is about and referencing though. If you don't consider the Titans to be cosmic level then that is fine but that wouldn't actually change them from being cosmic level in the lore. Just as a person doesn't have to consider Void vs Light to be a cosmic themed expansion but it still would be.
    Except the context is how Hazzikostas framed 'Cosmic forces' in his mission statement for Dragonflight keeping to its original classic High Fantasy that players want. The context is that they merely didn't want to front the expansion with a bunch of cosmic lore, which we literally just finished having with Shadowlands. That's how I see the context of his interview statements being framed.

    Hazzikostas leaves that quite wide open by saying ' It’s an exciting story that doesn’t require you to have played Shadowlands or have had familiarity with Shadowlands to understand it.". In context, he is talking about how entering Dragonflight's story will ease players into a new adventure that takes a step back.

    I've even provided you supporting evidence that Blizzard considers Titans and Dragons as cosmically linked and cosmic things. Just because they haven't explicitly stated that for Old Gods doesn't mean anything because it is clear what Blizzard considers to be cosmic from their own words. Which further shows that your interpretation isn't correct and shouldn't be humored.
    Don't care, don't think it's relevant. Again, you're still hung up on trying to change someone else's opinion, and frankly I think you're doing a terrible job at being convincing.

    If you disagree with my interpretation, you can merely say you personally disgree. That you say my interpretation isn't correct and shouldn't be humored is just you being rude.

    So consider this my last reply to you on this subject. This discussion is no longer amusing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  10. #290
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Don't care, don't think it's relevant. Again, you're still hung up on trying to change someone else's opinion, and frankly I think you're doing a terrible job at being convincing.
    Why do you keep responding then? If you'll just dismiss Blizzard statements that indicate your interpretation is wrong? I've been saying I disagree with your interpretation this whole time but you can't seem to accept that your wrong so need empty platitudes from me for some reason. The reason why your interpretation shouldn't be humored is because it isn't backed up by Blizzard. It isn't rude to point that out.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  11. #291
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Take this rolling back-and-forth to DMs if you want to continue it, but otherwise, you're sucking all the air out of the proverbial room.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  12. #292
    Thank you, Auculd.

    So if anyone following this thread missed it today, we got a hard no on Tuskarr today, and on the PTR a snippet of Lament of Highborne, about as long as a racial intro cutscene, was pulled out. So if this has any truth to it, Darkfallen are looking very likely, at this point.

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Veluren View Post
    Thank you, Auculd.

    So if anyone following this thread missed it today, we got a hard no on Tuskarr today, and on the PTR a snippet of Lament of Highborne, about as long as a racial intro cutscene, was pulled out. So if this has any truth to it, Darkfallen are looking very likely, at this point.
    Really? Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

    PS: Did you draw the dragon in your avatar?
    On silken ebony wings the harbinger of death arrives.

  14. #294
    https://twitter.com/Portergauge/stat...55065689391104

    They may be bringing back the unique voice actors for both kinds of Dark Ranger.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Three Faced Goddess View Post

    PS: Did you draw the dragon in your avatar?
    I did not, it was commissioned

  16. #296
    >One piece of new music in tonight's 9.2.5 build
    >It's a new cello cover of Lament of the Highborne

    Why must you tease Darkfallen so, Blizzard?

  17. #297
    Immortal jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veluren View Post
    So if anyone following this thread missed it today, we got a hard no on Tuskarr today, and on the PTR a snippet of Lament of Highborne, about as long as a racial intro cutscene, was pulled out. So if this has any truth to it, Darkfallen are looking very likely, at this point.
    To be honest I actually took Ion's comment as a playful joke that might imply they actually could be an allied race. His reason for "not" having them be a playable race was that they were too powerful. He compared them to Na'aru. That's clearly not a realistic answer.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  18. #298
    Herald of the Titans Chain Chungus's Avatar
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    Did anyone notice how evasive Steve Danuser was on the question of Dark Rangers? I mean, it was almost like he was pleading to not be asked more so he doesn't spoil it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    They will have more classes for sure, as the Darkfallen term has been expanded on to include the San'layn among others.

    Similar to how LFD is definitely the Paladin and Priest race but can be other classes if they wish.
    I'd prefer more classes too, but I'm just channeling Blizzard right there lol.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Chain Chungus View Post
    Did anyone notice how evasive Steve Danuser was on the question of Dark Rangers? I mean, it was almost like he was pleading to not be asked more so he doesn't spoil it.
    I mean with all the datamine's we're getting.... it's practically all but confirmed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  20. #300
    Herald of the Titans Chain Chungus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I mean with all the datamine's we're getting.... it's practically all but confirmed.
    The evidence does seem to be stacking up.

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