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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    Tldr. Night Elf Dark Ranger:
    Maiev talks about feeling bad for Sira in 9.2 (the Dark Warden currently in the Stockades)... so maybe they will allow them to come back, just like Alliance does for the Death Knights. It is really not that impossible (but I don't like it)
    Honestly can't see that happening. Not as is, anyways. It would basically be Night Elves with red eyes which would be incredibly lame.

    I think its more likely they get connected to the Winter Queen somehow. Especially since they blame Elune for their undeath and burning Teldrassil. They'll probably forsake Elune and swear themselves to the Winter Queen or something and get some Night Fae aesthetics to make them unique.

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Its to much what if for me, I see no point in speculating about that. Dks were fine and engaging when they were first implemented, It only became more boring over time. But thats with many classes imo.
    Well yeah, because you literally commented on my reply of someone speculating DK could have been a paladin skin. And in a different universe, by different designer decisions, that could very well have happened.

    'Hero Classes' that were evolved forms of regular classes was planned at one point during WoW development. They simply never carried through with the idea.

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Hero_class

    All the hero units of Warcraft III were originally supposed to become hero classes in World of Warcraft. Hero classes were still listed in 2005 on the "Under Development" page of the original website.[4] When a character hit level 40, it could start specializing in skills to become the same kind of hero. However, as Blizzard developed talent trees, they dropped the idea as they believed that the trees would provide enough customization. For example, a night elven warrior could specialize into wielding two one-handed weapons and essentially be a demon hunter, while a dwarven warrior could fulfill the fantasy of a mountain king,[5][6] or an undead warrior could become a death knight.[7]
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Well yeah, because you literally commented on my reply of someone speculating DK could have been a paladin skin. And in a different universe, by different designer decisions, that could very well have happened.

    'Hero Classes' that were evolved forms of regular classes was planned at one point during WoW development. They simply never carried through with the idea.

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Hero_class

    All the hero units of Warcraft III were originally supposed to become hero classes in World of Warcraft. Hero classes were still listed in 2005 on the "Under Development" page of the original website.[4] When a character hit level 40, it could start specializing in skills to become the same kind of hero. However, as Blizzard developed talent trees, they dropped the idea as they believed that the trees would provide enough customization. For example, a night elven warrior could specialize into wielding two one-handed weapons and essentially be a demon hunter, while a dwarven warrior could fulfill the fantasy of a mountain king,[5][6] or an undead warrior could become a death knight.[7]
    I understand, which I replied to saying it would have been the same discussion as any other potential options for classes. Death knight was just one of those warcraft 3 classes, like Demon hunter. I am just saying even with nothing to compare it to, the wish to have it as a class would still be there probably.

    We had couple of wrath interviews, explaining what they meant with death knight being a hero class, which they called it anyway, despite it being abbandoned as in the way msybe was originally the idea. They just referd the death knight back then as a class with a heroic beginning, an epic start. Starts little higher. Even saying that hero class doesnt mean stronger or better.

    If death knight never happened, I could imagine people would just put dark rangers, death knights all on one pile and maybe even saying, they will never happen.

    In a different universe anything is possible ofc, but death knight is a funny one, as they are undead.. the opposite of paladins. Sure it could be done, like warlock necromancer skin. But it still doesnt feel right tbh.
    Last edited by Alanar; 2022-05-02 at 05:49 PM.

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Blood elves, Night elves and Humans with grey skin and red eyes granted to them by class customization like Death Knights?
    red eyes already exists
    just pick up the mythic tier set from emerald nightmare(legion)
    gives you a sylvanas kind of look and fits dark ranger style

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Leaving it as a surprise to create more hype, instead of revealing everything from the start?
    Why would you do that? They didn't do that with BfA allied races. Dragonflight itself is shy on new stuff. Allied races would have made the expansion x 10000 more interesting right at the announcement.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Why would you do that? They didn't do that with BfA allied races. Dragonflight itself is shy on new stuff. Allied races would have made the expansion x 10000 more interesting right at the announcement.
    Why would they not put up pre orders at the height of hype after the announcement to capitalize on it?

    Things are going differently this time, so I'm not sure precedence matters much.

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by wowrefugee View Post
    Why would they not put up pre orders at the height of hype after the announcement to capitalize on it?

    Things are going differently this time, so I'm not sure precedence matters much.
    Yeah, why wouldn't they? That's the question. And I do not think the answer is "because allied races were not ready". That just makes no sense when you can basically show stills and concept art and that would be enough for an announcement already.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Its not the other way around. San layn is the faction. Darkfallen is the race. I already explained that this is known since wrath. The new info just kinda doubles down on that, but added dark rangers to be darkfallen as well. Which makes darkfallen the race by default.
    Everyone seemed to refer to them as San'layn all this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    This reminds me of the people saying that they were holding off on announcing Necromancer after the Shadowlands announcement to keep the hype level up in the coming months...
    We did get a dead expansion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aenigma84 View Post
    red eyes already exists
    just pick up the mythic tier set from emerald nightmare(legion)
    gives you a sylvanas kind of look and fits dark ranger style
    Customization tied to gear is no customization at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Why would you do that? They didn't do that with BfA allied races. Dragonflight itself is shy on new stuff. Allied races would have made the expansion x 10000 more interesting right at the announcement.
    Because they don't want to let the hype die down?
    The longer you drag it, the milder it gets.

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Veluren View Post
    If we only got one, it would by definition have to be neutral, they're not going to leave one faction with one extra player race, they always come in pairs if not neutral.
    A shared allied race wouldn't necessarily have to be neutral in the way that pandaren are. For example, Blizzard could give darkfallen to both alliance and horde but have the alliance darkfallen be undead night elves, and the horde version undead blood elves. Same race, same racials, different models/customization, not affiliated with each other, predetermined faction.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    If they are it makes no sense that they did not announce them directly with the Dragonflight announcement and the pre-orders. Saying "they are not ready" especially in this case makes zero sense as the models are available for two years now. So even if the in game playable models are not ready, they could have shown tons of concept art already.
    We didn't see the Nightborne playable models until the BFA pre-patch. Showcasing new playable races before an announcement kind of takes the wind out of announcements, doesn't it? As far as concept art goes... we've been playing it for the last year.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    A shared allied race wouldn't necessarily have to be neutral in the way that pandaren are. For example, Blizzard could give darkfallen to both alliance and horde but have the alliance darkfallen be undead night elves, and the horde version undead blood elves. Same race, same racials, different models/customization, not affiliated with each other, predetermined faction.
    'Darkfallen' customization is just Undead skin + Red eyes for Blood Elves. People can RP what they want after that. If the Venthyr join the Horde the Blood Elves could get Kael'thas Shadowlands customization as a freebie, like Night Warrior.

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Yeah, why wouldn't they? That's the question. And I do not think the answer is "because allied races were not ready". That just makes no sense when you can basically show stills and concept art and that would be enough for an announcement already.
    My point is that it's silly to discount certain things just because there isn't an answer yet.

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by wowrefugee View Post
    Why would they not put up pre orders at the height of hype after the announcement to capitalize on it?

    Things are going differently this time, so I'm not sure precedence matters much.
    There's precedent for 4x ARs being bundled as part of a pre-order bonus and also for those 4x ARs to be from the previous expansion. At least this pattern-seeking monkey brain thinks so.

    The fact that pre-orders have not been announced yet, is unusual, and is the last lingering drop of hopium I have for covenant ARs lol

    Why wouldn't they announce the pre-order alongside the announcement, when hype and media exposure is the highest? The pre-order incentive must be delayed.

    If it's 4 new playable races - that is kind of understandable. 8 new playable models is a lot of work, none of them are reskins of existing races. Kyrian, Venthyr and Sylvar are a lot further along as-is, but Maldraxxi are probably a huge undertaking.

    And all 8 models need to be presentable, if not playable, otherwise the announcement is a pre-order 'coming soon' which is a total boner killer.

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Everyone seemed to refer to them as San'layn all this time.
    Which isnt weird as dark rangers were a recent thing being refered to as darkfallen. The name san'layn is just more known and up until the book were just known as these vampire elves. So people instantly think of those obviously.

    Hope this clears it up for you.
    Last edited by Alanar; 2022-05-02 at 07:27 PM.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Yeah, why wouldn't they? That's the question. And I do not think the answer is "because allied races were not ready". That just makes no sense when you can basically show stills and concept art and that would be enough for an announcement already.
    You mean like this?






  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Which isnt weird as dark rangers were a recent thing being refered as darkfallen. San layn is a faction of darkfallen as explained.

    Hope this clears it up for you.
    The ambiguity is part of their lore at this point. Specifically San'layn were infamous scourge raised after Lanathel's failed strike against Icecrown after the scouring of Silvermoon. And then the Sylvanas books says San'layn were specifically Silvermoon mages raised to undeath...I guess this is supposed to imply they used Blood magic upon becoming scourge, or they actually remembered the subtle vampiric nature of elves in the Warcraft setting: Essentially elves need to feed on magic to live. They typically get this magic distilled through wells, but its possible to feed on the inherent magic in blood. And that magic is the magic of pain, which is colored red & used by the Venthyr: They draw out Anima using pain.

    So it seems the San'layn is specifically an elvish word meaning "Elves who feed on blood" for their magical hunger. While Darkfallen means Undead Elf in general. So it makes sense that "Darkfallen who don't count as dark rangers but certainly ate blood while in the scourge" would identify as "San'layn" and form a collective. Circumstances cause "San'layn" & "Dark Rangers" to be considered two different groups but they're both Darkfallen & they've both either part of the horde or tried to be part of the horde at some point. Would anyone complain if they were merged together post-shadowlands?
    Last edited by Ersula; 2022-05-02 at 07:37 PM.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    'Darkfallen' customization is just Undead skin + Red eyes for Blood Elves. People can RP what they want after that. If the Venthyr join the Horde the Blood Elves could get Kael'thas Shadowlands customization as a freebie, like Night Warrior.
    Sure, they could do darkfallen as simple customization if they wanted (and honestly I'd expect that rather than a full on allied race for darkfallen). I was just positing that if it were an allied race, it wouldn't have to be neutral in the same way that pandaren are.

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    While Darkfallen means Undead Elf in general. So it makes sense that "Darkfallen who don't count as dark rangers but certainly ate blood while in the scourge" would identify as "San'layn" and form a collective. Circumstances cause "San'layn" & "Dark Rangers" to be considered two different groups but they're both Darkfallen & they've both either part of the horde or tried to be part of the horde at some point. Would anyone complain if they were merged together post-shadowlands?
    They are already kinda merged with the book tbh.

    Yea i said the same thing, they were put into two groups, the san layn and the dark rangers. Both being one and the same race. So just to make it easier I guess, they are darkfallen.

    I told username the same thing, but Darkfallen were officially going to appear on the new creature/race list back on the wotlk website. Effectively calling them Darkfallen. The san'layn to me were always this sect of elves called darkfallen and formed a faction called the san'layn.
    I agree it sounds elvish and makes sense they continue using names like that even in undeath. Even some of the san'layn quotes in icc refer them directly as darkfallen. It was very confusing even at that time, especially since that pages was never added and stayed greyed out.

    I dont mind dark rangers and sanlayn being one and the same, they both just went different ways, since they just said mages is kinda weird as icc had lits of san layn npcs that werent persee mages, but who cares.. its not a big deal, if they ever decide to continue on their story, I am sure they would add additional classes to them.
    Last edited by Alanar; 2022-05-02 at 08:01 PM.

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    I understand, which I replied to saying it would have been the same discussion as any other potential options for classes. Death knight was just one of those warcraft 3 classes, like Demon hunter. I am just saying even with nothing to compare it to, the wish to have it as a class would still be there probably.

    We had couple of wrath interviews, explaining what they meant with death knight being a hero class, which they called it anyway, despite it being abbandoned as in the way msybe was originally the idea. They just referd the death knight back then as a class with a heroic beginning, an epic start. Starts little higher. Even saying that hero class doesnt mean stronger or better.

    If death knight never happened, I could imagine people would just put dark rangers, death knights all on one pile and maybe even saying, they will never happen.

    In a different universe anything is possible ofc, but death knight is a funny one, as they are undead.. the opposite of paladins. Sure it could be done, like warlock necromancer skin. But it still doesnt feel right tbh.
    I'm saying it could have happened another way, not that it didn't happen at all.

    In my opinion, the game should have branched with more classes, less focus on specs. Someone else would say that makes too many alts and they rather have one class that fills multiple identities. There's no win win when everyone's opinion is different
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I'm saying it could have happened another way, not that it didn't happen at all.

    In my opinion, the game should have branched with more classes, less focus on specs. Someone else would say that makes too many alts and they rather have one class that fills multiple identities. There's no win win when everyone's opinion is different
    Because of opinions, it makes the whole class skin idea so hard to execute well imo. I mean what is a class skin now really? A archrype that doesnt have enough stuff to make its own class?. Everything a class skin offers could be done with glyphs and costumization options if you think about it.

    If I would be a diehard necromancer fan, I would be disappointed it being a mere skin and will never feel like a true full on necromancer. I would feel the same way I guess if dks were just paladins with a skin and some abillities being replaced. You have to do more with it, to not make it feel obviously less then just a complete class if you know what I mean.
    Last edited by Alanar; 2022-05-02 at 08:08 PM.

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Because of opinions, it makes the whole class skin idea so hard to execute well imo. I mean what is a class skin now really? A archrype that doesnt have enough stuff to make its own class. So basically glyphs in some shape or form.
    It's Allied Races for Classes. "Subclasses" isn't really a fitting name, and "Allied Classes" is kinda dumb. The closest thing we have right now is "Class Skin" which is a basic concept that reuses core gameplay of an existing class, with new visuals and customization options to represent a new class concept archetype.

    If I would be a diehard necromancer fan, I would be disappointed it being a mere skin and will never feel like a true full on necromancer. I would feel the same way I guess if dks were just paladins with a skin and some abillities being replaced. You have to do more with it, to not nake it feel obviously less then just a complete class if you know what I mean.
    If Blizzard can alleviate some of the demand with permanent customization options, then it's still better than waiting indefinitely for a class that simply will never happen. Cuz honestly, what is the alternative right now for your diehard Necromancer fan? Waiting for a class that will never be made?

    Cuz I could just as much say it sucks that Necromancers aren't playable at all and a diehard Necromancer fan would rather have some representation rather than none. Like, what's the difference? What does it actually mean to be 'diehard fan of a class that isn't playable'? As much as you can present opinions that would be against my suggestions, the alternative is not having it at all. Because Blizzard has shown zero interest in making them a class, and I doubt any diehard fan would say 'Yeah, I'd rather not have it playable than having any measure of representation'. IMO, the only true problems with them going any deeper with Class Skin type representation is the lack of permanent customizations like Green Fire. Artifacts and Legendaries did well in providing some customization options, but they're borrowed power that don't ever scale to your character progression.


    I'd say it'd be more similar to how Allied Races and customizations have eleviated some of the demand for certain races. We still don't have High Elves playable on Alliance, but Void Elf with High Elf customizations are going a long way. We still don't have true playable Wildhammer Dwarves either. But customizations for Dwarf with tribal tattooes and Mohawks really do go a long way. The demand for High Elves and Wildhammer may never truly be satisfied without their own races, but what we have is still better than never having it in the first place IMO.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-05-02 at 08:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

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