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  1. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The issue that people don't understand is that yes, animations can be swapped, but the issues come from having a new skeleton that has *different proportions* from something that already exists.

    If you have Skeleton A have the same Arm Length, Spine Length, Leg Length etc as Skeleton B and the only difference is B has a tail, then yes it's not that bad because most of the animations will be transferrable, while you only have to account for making sure the tail animations work and don't get in the way.

    If you have Skeleton A be a standard Human-looking skeleton, and Skeleton B is an Ogre type that has shorter legs, longer spine (lower center of gravity), longer arms, and wider hips, then the animation transfers might not work properly at all. The running animations might work, but not fit a character that has a lower center of gravity and might have too long of a stride. The mounting animations might work, but legs might end up clipping through most models or the waist position is off because of the altered hip proportions. And making that many tweaks is on the level of practically making new ones, if we're talking about completely different proportions.

    The alternative is then adapting to an existing race of similar proportions, like we're seeing with Tuskar having new skeleton and animations that are supposedly based on Pandaren (from what I've heard, so I could be wrong). That is something that saves time.

    Animation and technical work (making sure clothing works, making sure facial customizations work, etc) is where most of the iteration and time is spent.


    Animation transfers is a common thing. We use it all the time for WC3 Reforged modding. Yet just because it works and is common doesn't mean it works for everything. For example, we transferred animations of Reforged's Dragons onto Heroes of the Storm Deathwing to give him Flight animations. The animations work, but they also get pretty F'd up. So yes, transferring would save time if the proportions of the two things being transferred are relatively similar. If not, they can actually waste more time than save.
    The whole point here is that, the Shadowlands races are already very close to being playable, the work is 80% done, on account of the fact that they've been in-game for 2 years. The difficult work you are describing, is done and has been done for a long time. Armor rigging and dance emotes are about all that's left. Which is a small price to pay in the millions that it will generate in race changes.

  2. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    I’m honestly expecting the “allied race” in the leak to be talking about the Dracthyr.

    If you were to see them without any context, especially the visage form, they’d look like an allied race.
    don't think so, the leak explicitly says new race, new class AND new allied race with preorders

  3. #503
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    The whole point here is that, the Shadowlands races are already very close to being playable, the work is 80% done, on account of the fact that they've been in-game for 2 years. The difficult work you are describing, is done and has been done for a long time. Armor rigging and dance emotes are about all that's left. Which is a small price to pay in the millions that it will generate in race changes.
    Er, depends on what races you're talking about.

    Night Fae? Yes.

    Venthyr and Kyrian? Still require quite a bit of work on both parts. Venthyr are not built to be Player viable at all, while Kyrian are using female Vrykul animations which are also not existing race animations. All we know is that they have attachment points so some gear fits their bodies. So they work fine as NPCs, but are no where close to being Player Race viable.

    Maldraxxian is purely NPC. I mean, they don't even have faces. I doubt they would be made into a Player Race as we recognize them now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  4. #504
    I thought the whole point of skeletons in animations is to speed things up and to enable easier use of assets (ie: armor).

  5. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    The whole point here is that, the Shadowlands races are already very close to being playable, the work is 80% done, on account of the fact that they've been in-game for 2 years. The difficult work you are describing, is done and has been done for a long time. Armor rigging and dance emotes are about all that's left. Which is a small price to pay in the millions that it will generate in race changes.
    Something being an npc doesn't mean it's not a large task to convert them into player races with actual customization as we have with most races now.

    They likely decided it the benefits would not outweigh the development time and resources it would take to do such a thing.

  6. #506
    Quote Originally Posted by AngerFork View Post
    High Elf community != the WoW community at large.
    Except I never mentioned the "WoW community at large" here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    If "excitement" you mean "hate"? At least for the void elves, since nobody asked for them and that race was literally an asspull that did not exist in the game and lore until literally BfA came along, and because it trampled over the part of the game's community who wanted high elves in the Alliance.

    No, I got that. It's about a "leak" that may or may not have come from someone associated with Blizzard (likely not). Again though, Blizz has not advertised a thing with this to this point. This is fan speculation, pure and simple. So to put an expectation like you have above regarding people being upset that a new Allied Race wouldn't be the one they specifically want and would thus hinder excitement for the launch is a bit weird.
    Except the whole idea of what I'm doing, if you bothered to read, is to point out that this leak is, at best, a mistranslation and "allied race" refers to the dracthyr, or a complete fake.

    We also saw Zandalari in Mogu'shan Vaults and while some of them used the traditional troll skeleton, others used an early version of the Night Elf-style skeleton that we have today. Simply using the Human or Troll skeletons to be Kul'Tirans or Zandalari would not have felt nearly as good as the ones we got do. Besides, Blizz was clearly moving in a direction of more customized races by the end of BfA given the fresh models for Kul'Tirans, the fresh take on the Goblin model for Vulpera, & the weird customizations for Mechagnomes. An Allied Race in the future is far more likely to be further customized in that way than it is to be something like a Forsaken with flashlight implants.
    But that indicated they were the exception rather than the norm. We've seen humans using different skeletons too, like the 'fat and thin humans' we meet in Borean Tundra, and Medivh who used the night elf skeleton.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yeah, that is not my error. The statement reads exactly the same as it did when I originally wrote it, my friend.
    It was your error.

    I asked "talking about skeletons or models?" and instead of just saying 'both', you just went with skeleton, skeleton, skeleton. You never mentioned anything else like the model, you just talked about the skeleton.

  7. #507
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Er, depends on what races you're talking about.

    Night Fae? Yes.

    Venthyr and Kyrian? Still require quite a bit of work on both parts. Venthyr are not built to be Player viable at all, while Kyrian are using female Vrykul animations which are also not existing race animations. All we know is that they have attachment points so some gear fits their bodies. So they work fine as NPCs, but are no where close to being Player Race viable.

    Maldraxxian is purely NPC. I mean, they don't even have faces. I doubt they would be made into a Player Race as we recognize them now.
    If we're talking about Female Maldraxxi (Gladiators) they are completely playable, they even have Monk animations, due to being almost completely Kul Tiran females. Male Gladiators use a mix of Kul Tiran male and WoD Ogre, all on the adaptive system.

    Venthyr and Kyrian male and female both have all of the essential animations. Only missing emote animations.

    Night Fae are the furthest along and support full armor customization based on the Female Draenei proportions.




    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by [Apok] View Post
    Something being an npc doesn't mean it's not a large task to convert them into player races with actual customization as we have with most races now.

    They likely decided it the benefits would not outweigh the development time and resources it would take to do such a thing.
    They were developed using the same system as the player models use, it would not be as great an effort as it would take to create a brand new race in the past.

  8. #508
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    If we're talking about Female Maldraxxi (Gladiators) they are completely playable, they even have Monk animations, due to being almost completely Kul Tiran females. Male Gladiators use a mix of Kul Tiran male and WoD Ogre, all on the adaptive system.
    The adaptive system is not a cure-all for the amount of time and effort required to take NPC skeleton and animations into a Playable Race.

    Like, simple question - which current Player Races actually contain (reused) NPC animations?

    Venthyr and Kyrian male and female both have all of the essential animations. Only missing emote animations.


    Granted it's a bit of an old video, I think this helps illustrates my point that it's more than just 'essential animations' required. I'm not sure if any of these issues have been polished since this video, but I haven't found anything close to making a practical argument towards Venthyr being shown to be any more playable than they are now. From what I know of the Venthyr models, they're exclusively NPC.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-05-26 at 09:31 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  9. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    I’m honestly expecting the “allied race” in the leak to be talking about the Dracthyr.

    If you were to see them without any context, especially the visage form, they’d look like an allied race.
    I do think this is a real possibility. If this person had access to the PR kit pictures without any context, you could easily assume the dragons are one race, and the re-used visage models are an allied race.

  10. #510
    Leaks can be wrong not because of inaccurate information, but because of changes in development.
    Frankly, considering how controversial this stuff is, if I had some accurate information, I'd also toss in a couple wrenches just to watch the fire burn.

    There's not much supporting an Allied Race in the files right now.

    I do think it might wind up being Dracthyr too the more I think about it, and they could hotfix in a larger chunk of the files for them with a micro patch.
    Blizzard has already said there were no allied races planned for Shadowlands, and now they're saying there's none planned for Dragonflight. We are obsessed with a system where it seems like it was very much so a BFA thing, and while they did say more could come later, they're also saying it's not.
    Dracthyr are something else entirely; they're not really a core race, but they're not really an allied race either. They're unique.

    There's also the matter of pre-order bonuses trying into the upcoming expansion;
    BFA had Allied Races because of the War Campaigns in BFA.
    Shadowlands had DKs because we were literally going to the Shadowlands and Bolvar looked like he was going to have a key role.

    Also, whatever happened to those customization slots that were found at the start of the PTR cycle?
    Between the Dark Ranger set and those slots, it's making me think Darkfallen is just going to be the Night Warrior unlock for Blood Elves with a fancy class set.
    Which, for various reasons, would be a lot more fair in terms of balance. Void Elves got High Elves as a subrace, Darkfallen as a subrace works too.

  11. #511
    Don't we go to Shadowlands during the 9.2.5 questlines even though the rift is closed?

  12. #512
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The adaptive system is not a cure-all for the amount of time and effort required to take NPC skeleton and animations into a Playable Race.

    Like, simple question - which current Player Races actually contain (reused) NPC animations?



    [video=youtube;o8EO6MAEU2g]https://www.youtub

    Granted it's a bit of an old video, I think this helps illustrates my point that it's more than just 'essential animations' required. I'm not sure if any of these issues have been polished since this video, but I haven't found anything close to making a practical argument towards Venthyr being shown to be any more playable than they are now. From what I know of the Venthyr models, they're exclusively NPC.
    You keep pointing to the fact that Venthyr in their current form is evidence that they aren't going to be playable, because they aren't already playable, what kind of circular reasoning is that. Of course, they still need armor fitting and emotes, but like I've been saying, they were built on the adaptive rig from the start, their progression from NPC -> Playable Race is only a matter of improving the current design, no need to start from scratch. Unlike the Nightborne that needed to be completely redone, as they were not using the adaptive rig.

  13. #513
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    I’m honestly expecting the “allied race” in the leak to be talking about the Dracthyr.
    It is the dracthyr.

    There's no way it can be anything other than dracthyr because it depends on several nonsensical decision to be made, such as:
    Not revealing the second new playable race during the expansion reveal, which is nonsensical considering expansion reveals are literally "sales pitches" and therefore not showing one selling point is counter-productive;
    • Not revealing the second playable race until opening pre-orders would cause much more disappointment than excitement when it would finally be revealed as it would not be the race many, if not most people would want it to be after hyping themselves up for it;
    • It would make absolutely zero sense to add a second playable race after the first has been revealed to be a neutral one (i.e. available to both factions). What? Would this be a second neutral race?
    • The original post on 4chan clearly shows mistranslations as it calls the class Invoker instead of Evoker, so 'allied race' can easily be a mistranslation as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Don't we go to Shadowlands during the 9.2.5 questlines even though the rift is closed?
    That rift is closed, but access to it is not. Portals can be made to the Shadowlands.

    Remember that Kyrian have been traveling to and from the mortal plane for eons before that, to ferry the souls of the dead.

  14. #514
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    That rift is closed, but access to it is not. Portals can be made to the Shadowlands.

    Remember that Kyrian have been traveling to and from the mortal plane for eons before that, to ferry the souls of the dead.
    So, Shadowlands allied races still make sense.

  15. #515
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    So, Shadowlands allied races still make sense.
    No. Not really. They never did. And I believe we discussed that already. All the Shadowland races have duties to attend to. It's their purpose.

  16. #516
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It is the dracthyr.

    There's no way it can be anything other than dracthyr because it depends on several nonsensical decision to be made, such as:
    Not revealing the second new playable race during the expansion reveal, which is nonsensical considering expansion reveals are literally "sales pitches" and therefore not showing one selling point is counter-productive;
    • Not revealing the second playable race until opening pre-orders would cause much more disappointment than excitement when it would finally be revealed as it would not be the race many, if not most people would want it to be after hyping themselves up for it;
    • It would make absolutely zero sense to add a second playable race after the first has been revealed to be a neutral one (i.e. available to both factions). What? Would this be a second neutral race?
    • The original post on 4chan clearly shows mistranslations as it calls the class Invoker instead of Evoker, so 'allied race' can easily be a mistranslation as well.
    Let me flip the script - if the pre-order bonus was Drak'thyr, why wouldn't they announce pre-orders alongside the expansion reveal, when marketing coverage is at its peak?

    One possible explanation is that the pre-order and its incentive announcement are being held back simply because whatever it is, isn't in a presentable state yet. This tracks with the theory that the pre-order allied races are improved playable versions of the Shadowlands races. IMO the fact that the pre-order is being held back is the more compelling reason to think it's SL races.

    Cross-faction gameplay is coming, possibly even cross-faction guilds, which makes Neutral races kind of redundant outside of questing and levelling.

    The millions of dollars that are generated by race transfers every time a new set of playable models is released from a cost-value-profit point of view easily justifies itself from the business perspective.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    No. Not really. They never did. And I believe we discussed that already. All the Shadowland races have duties to attend to. It's their purpose.
    A purpose that all of them have questioned due to our intervention in the Shadowlands conflict. The whole Kyrian campaign is based on a subset of them challenging their notion of duty, a view that is eventually accepted by the whole Covenant. The Venthyr get to find out that their so called duty is a lie. The Night Fae grapple with the balancing their duty to protect the wild with necessary sacrifices for the greater good. The Necrolords are constantly questioning their duty as the militant arm of the Shadowlands, and their purpose as defenders or aggressors. The whole, rejecting their eternal traditions trope, was the north star of the whole Shadowlands narrative. Meanwhile the Night Fae and Kyrians make some remarks about wanting to visit Azeroth once this is all over.
    Last edited by choom; 2022-05-27 at 02:09 PM.

  17. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    Let me flip the script - if the pre-order bonus was Drak'thyr, why wouldn't they announce pre-orders alongside the expansion reveal, when marketing coverage is at its peak?
    Maybe for the same reason they haven't announced when the expansion would hit the live servers, or when the pre-patch would hit the PTR servers?

    One possible explanation is that the pre-order and its incentive announcement are being held back simply because whatever it is, isn't in a presentable state yet.
    That doesn't fly considering Blizzard has never withheld any new features from their expansion reveals. They have never not revealed anything. In fact, they have "over-shared" in the past to things they couldn't deliver. Again, it makes absolutely zero marketing sense to completely omit important features such as a new playable race.

    This tracks with the theory that the pre-order allied races are improved playable versions of the Shadowlands races.
    Three of the first allied races from BfA were literally the NPC races from Legion (nightfallen, highmountain tauren, lightforged draenei) were announced from the get-go.

    Cross-faction gameplay is coming, possibly even cross-faction guilds, which makes Neutral races kind of redundant outside of questing and levelling.
    Yet we are getting a new neutral race (the dracthyr) and if the most commonly accepted interpretation of this "leak" is true (it isn't) then we would get another neutral race.

    The millions of dollars that are generated by race transfers every time a new set of playable models is released from a cost-value-profit point of view easily justifies itself from the business perspective.
    Which, once again, point out how nonsensical it is to not reveal this mythical second new playable race from the expansion reveal.

    A purpose that all of them have questioned due to our intervention in the Shadowlands conflict. The whole, rejecting their eternal traditions trope, was the north star of the whole Shadowlands narrative.
    But nothing changed, really. The Maldraxxi are still the protectors. If you played Venthyr, you'd see that they once again swear to uphold the duty of the Venthyr, which is to redeem souls. The Night Fae is still taking care of the groves of Ardenweald, nothing changed. The only covenant that had any sort of real change from their initial duties was the Kyrian, but even then they will still continue to do the exact same thing they've always done, only this time it won't be necessary to divorce yourself from your past memories.

  18. #518
    Quote Originally Posted by Paperfox View Post
    I thought the whole point of skeletons in animations is to speed things up and to enable easier use of assets (ie: armor).
    In relation to what they used before: Now the animations are designed for a specific skeleton, which is attached to a mesh, which has a texture on top of it. Before that wow models didn't use skeletons & the animation was tied directly to the mesh. So you could only use make reskins of the same mesh: Now with a skeleton, you can give animations to meshes that are different: For example, night elves & nightborne.

    But for the most part if you change the skeleton, and change the mesh a lot, the animation is going to look messed up. IE: that example with giving the Nightborne the worgen models. (Some people said "its the same skeleton, they just change it" if you change the skeleton too much the animation isn't going to look good so when we say "the same skeleton" we mean an "unchanged skeleton".

    TLR Void Elves & Blood Elves, are basically reskins, while Nightborne & Night Elves are an example of them reusing a skeleton on different meshes. The model is slightly different but the new DF Gnolls appear to be using the Worgen skeleton.

  19. #519
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    You keep pointing to the fact that Venthyr in their current form is evidence that they aren't going to be playable, because they aren't already playable, what kind of circular reasoning is that. Of course, they still need armor fitting and emotes, but like I've been saying, they were built on the adaptive rig from the start, their progression from NPC -> Playable Race is only a matter of improving the current design, no need to start from scratch. Unlike the Nightborne that needed to be completely redone, as they were not using the adaptive rig.
    But I'm not talking about NPCs in terms of those using the old skeletal system.

    I'm talking about NPCs even in regards to the adaptive rig systems, which even Ogres and Vrykul are now a part of. They all remain non-playable because they are missing animations and form-fitting gear, and that is where most of the work actually comes from.

    Kul Tiran are probably the best example of this. They were initially built as an NPC race prior to the decision to fully make them a Player Race. And they talked about that effort being as much as it took to make a completely new race like Pandaren; comparatively more time and effort than all other Allied Races combined. There's no difference in what skeleton they're using, it was already using the adaptive skeleton you're talking about.

    The same amount of time and effort required of Kul Tiran would need to be applied on Ogres and Venthyr. It's not a matter of whether it is possible or not, it's a matter of all those tweaks and extra animations requiring a lot of time and effort. They have to go through and make sure every one of those animations are up to Player Race standards. They don't really have to do much of that for races that literally reuse existing Player Race animations and proportions.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-05-27 at 05:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  20. #520
    Venthyr have a body shape that is more in line with many current playable races, and would be much easier to rig than a very very round human.

    Funnily enough, Ogres could actually be built from Kul Tirans, making that development time actually worth something. We all know KT's aren't exactly a popular pick with players.

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