Are people really okay with the "new" race restrictions?

[Schizoide]

Its a simple fact that the devs and the company knows whats better than random poster complaining on MMO champ,

Indubitably true. They know better than any random poster. Most random mouth-breathers can barely create CO2 from O2.

They do not know better than a consensus of many players. When you have threads 100 pages long on the beta forums complaining about, say, Azerite armor, or legendary acquisition, or Torghast sucking, that should be treated deadly seriously and not discarded, even if it means you need to redesign systems or build new content that could delay release. I've been in pretty much every WoW beta since WotLK and quite a few alphas and EVERY single time, if there's a 100 page thread that isn't addressed, they have to go back in patch X.1 and X.2 and do their best to fix it after the fact. The devs were never right, the players in those threads were always proven correct. But by then the damage was done.

Organized feedback must be considered, even when or even particularly when it's consistently negative. Which it usually is, because who's writing super passionate screeds about a feature they enjoy? They just play it. Anyway not doing so has been their failing for this entire post-Ghostcrawler generation of WoW developers. GC wasn't perfect and I disagreed with many of his decisions, but you could talk to the guy.

[rpdrichard]

Druids are the most popular class in WoW and 3/4 of their specs aren't wearing armor in combat form. Yeah, Glyph of Stars is popular, but not every Druid is using it. I still see plenty of fat space chickens running around in raids. Even with Astral form, your gear is transparent with stars falling all over it. Also, Guardian Druids are the 3rd most played tank spec based on stats, and they also can't show off their transmog.

The point is, it isn't a deterrent. People here are just complaining for the sake of complaining. You can still show off your transmog or tier gear, just not in combat.

Maybe druids are so popular un spite of not showing their armor. The appeal of druids is the shapeshifting, but if the beast shapes could show armor I would choose that option any day over current version.

Maybe they could do the animations with elemental dragon shapes for other races with specials. Crossing my fingers for them to reconsider class avaibility

[Aresk]

"not having to Worry" is a weird way to say "they didn't bother, neither wanted to work on that".

Because I'm not saying that. I'm saying removing restrictions on what models have to support allows more types of models. I'm not sure where the confusion around that lies.

And yes, it is unwlinness to work, its a blatantly lazy thing.

So Blizzard leadership assigned its employees the tasks, which the employees looked at, decided to goof off instead, and then the higher ups bought that these things can't be done? I find that difficult to believe. I find it far more likely that there were meetings that discussed what they wanted, issues brought up about how some things would work, cost analyses performed on what it would take to remediate the issues, and then a decision made that the resources it would take to perform these were better spent elsewhere. That's not laziness.

They were so damn lazy that they made Demon hunter 2.0 and sold as a race to not bother in making a proper dragon race.

They were so lazy that they come up with this BULLSHIT excuse that "they are the same thing" so they don't had to bother adding other classes to the race neither other races to the class.

They were so azy that they didn't even bother to make more than 2 specs either.

they also were lazy to not make another visage forms or unique ones, they just used blood elf model, again

their lore of being "failurres" but also perfect experiments hat mix all five dragonflights, - a feat that was previously impossible - locked awya from 10k years is also, lazy.

The whole thing is lazy, and its a shame people are defending this mediocricy, when we could have got something like MOP, a proper drakonid race with a proper dragon class.

Where is this demon hunter 2.0? Demon hunter hasn't drastically changed, to my knowledge, unlike with survival, outlaw, and demo. I don't even get why this is relevant to this discussion. As far as evoker goes, it's clearly different from demon hunter in that there is 0 role overlap (healing, ranged dps vs tanking, melee dps). I don't even have to go into minutia of class capabilities the way one would if you claimed that evoker were too similar to priests. It's possible that I'm just completely misunderstanding your argument here, and if so, please help clarify things.

With respect to classes and the race, they've already said they want to add more classes to dracthyr later, but for lore reasons, it made sense to limit it at the onset of 10.0. They've even gone on to say that they plan to add all classes to all races eventually.

With respect to specs, you're suggesting that they budgeted time for three specs and then just sat there and squandered one spec's worth of time, resulting in only two? Where's your evidence? Because the interviews specified that they looked at three specs but ultimately couldn't find enough engaging differences between two dps specs. Same as with demon hunter. Which completely refutes a laziness argument in that effort was put forth to do the thing, and it failed QA and was ultimately cut to deliver a better experience.

WRT blood elf models, I can't get scales on my blood elf models, so I would say that they didn't simply reuse them. I personally think the cosmetic choices look pretty distinct, but that's subjective. While they are reusing skeletons and animations there, that's also not something new (e.g. worgen, most allied races).

We've not gotten to dig into any finalized lore yet, but I would appreciate any source that says they were both failures and perfect, because I've not seen it.

In your last paragraph, I feel like we're finally getting to the heart of the issue. You feel the race is mediocre. Which means you feel that they should have done some things differently or should invest more resources into refining the race. These are fair arguments, though neither speaks to laziness. The first is a difference in direction, and the second is a case of resource allocation. Neither speaks to laziness.

[Syegfryed]

Because I'm not saying that. I'm saying removing restrictions on what models have to support allows more types of models. I'm not sure where the confusion around that lies.

Except that was not their intent, it was not "removing restrictions on the model" ismaking something lazy so they don't ahve to work on it.

So Blizzard leadership assigned its employees the tasks, which the employees looked at, decided to goof off instead, and then the higher ups bought that these things can't be done? I find that difficult to believe. I find it far more likely that there were meetings that discussed what they wanted, issues brought up about how some things would work, cost analyses performed on what it would take to remediate the issues, and then a decision made that the resources it would take to perform these were better spent elsewhere. That's not laziness.

What? their meetins obviously went out "how we can do this with less work, effort and money" and they came up with this .

Where is this demon hunter 2.0? Demon hunter hasn't drastically changed, to my knowledge, unlike with survival, outlaw, and demo. I don't even get why this is relevant to this discussion.

"dreacthyr/evoker" work exactly like demon hunter, an elf turning into a demon x a elf turning into a dragon, its something lazy and already done. Its another class with just two specs because they din't bother or could not make 3 specs again.

As far as evoker goes, it's clearly different from demon hunter in that there is 0 role overlap

Of course they had to change that or it would be too blatantly.

With respect to classes and the race, they've already said they want to add more classes to dracthyr later, but for lore reasons, it made sense to limit it at the onset of 10.0. They've even gone on to say that they plan to add all classes to all races eventually.

Again, the "lore reasons" were made on purpose to hide their laziness to not make the dragon form able to use other items, because this is essentially a demon hunter, a class

OF course they will say "in the future" when they finnaly add the possibility for then to use weapons and itens, but not now, cause they already wasted time/money

With respect to specs, you're suggesting that they budgeted time for three specs and then just sat there and squandered one spec's worth of time, resulting in only two? Where's your evidence? Because the interviews specified that they looked at three specs but ultimately couldn't find enough engaging differences between two dps specs. Same as with demon hunter. Which completely refutes a laziness argument in that effort was put forth to do the thing, and it failed QA and was ultimately cut to deliver a better experience.

You are telling me they could not have amde a class with 3 specs again? despite a dragon class, EASILY having enough lore to fill at least 4?

they clearly are not capable to do more than 2 specs anymore, and since everyone eat DH they will continue, mediocricy is the default now

WRT blood elf models, I can't get scales on my blood elf models, so I would say that they didn't simply reuse them.

Waow, put some scales on a model means you didn't reuse a model, great logic

I personally think the cosmetic choices look pretty distinct, but that's subjective. While they are reusing skeletons and animations there, that's also not something new (e.g. worgen, most allied races).

The point is the visage forms are garbage lazy and there should be options of other races

We've not gotten to dig into any finalized lore yet, but I would appreciate any source that says they were both failures and perfect, because I've not seen it.

Being able to perfect use the power of the 5 dragonflight perfectly was something entirely impossible, but they can do just fine, yet, they are called failures of DW, despite they being exactly what he wanted then to be.

In your last paragraph, I feel like we're finally getting to the heart of the issue. You feel the race is mediocre. Which means you feel that they should have done some things differently or should invest more resources into refining the race. These are fair arguments, though neither speaks to laziness. The first is a difference in direction, and the second is a case of resource allocation. Neither speaks to laziness.

The race and the class is mediocre, they went for the lazy route with a half-asset job.

This could be explained by they cutting money, but time they had, i expect something with a little effort, especially when they ditched so many established lore sources tow ork with it

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Just because you dont like something doesnt mean its lazy, they created a whole new flying system, a larger continent than ever, a completely new class/race with a different playstyle and a whole lot more. It shows a serious lack of character when you insult the devs who do all the work on the game, you ignore all the effort they have done because you simply dont like something.

Just because you like something doesn't mean its not lazy.

Im not talking about the system, zones, ro whatever, thats not my point, im talking about the class and the race and whow ork with it.

There is always too many classes so they are not required to make anymore, too many options screws other classes out of spots in dungeons/PvP and raid groups, it also makes it even harder to balance all the classes with even more specs, armour is just something dragons shouldnt wear as it gets in the way and makes no sense.

there is too many raids and dungeons so they are not require to amke anymore, blablabla, the same nonsense over and over.

If theya re not going to do something decent maybe they should not have done at all

[PenguinChan]

Personally, they should just add unique customizations over time and provide basic sets or pieces that only they can wear. If Blizzard wants to go forward with making the game look far better, and not have stupid robe reskins for the nth year in a row... Then start with Dracthyr. The class restrictions I can understand if they reskin them overtime to fit them. Again - providing a more more immersive and compelling experience instead of just being yet another Warrior.

Otherwise, it's a swing and a miss, and shows that they either are A) Lazy, or B) Unable to provide such content because the engine limitations are still not unlocked to the point it can allow such things. I'm leaning on the side of B, but also some of A.

[Aresk]

What? their meetins obviously went out "how we can do this with less work, effort and money" and they came up with this .

[...]

OF course they will say "in the future" when they finnaly add the possibility for then to use weapons and itens, but not now, cause they already wasted time/money

You're not even consistent in your criticisms. In your first comment, you're saying they're not spending effort and money, and in the last, you're saying they wasted time and money.

I understand that you're dissatisfied with the Dracthyr. I understand you have other preferences that you think they should have gone with instead. You do have some really good points, but you shroud all of these behind accusations of laziness. I myself think the dracthyr model is too slender (they have announced variations in width that they're releasing in an article soon, so I'm holding final judgement until then). I feel like they should have a tank spec, as there is only currently one class with a tank and ranged DPS spec, but Blizzard has said that it goes against their feelings of being a spellcaster. Regardless of my criticisms, a lot of employees put a lot of effort into the dracthyr evoker, whether they were modelers, animators, class designers, quest designers, etc. Saying that the dracthyr evoker is lazy is undermining those people's work. I think it's far more constructive to discuss the exact details that are causing dissatisfaction and what could be done to improve them than accuse all those employees of being of lazy.

[Teriz]

Maybe druids are so popular un spite of not showing their armor. The appeal of druids is the shapeshifting, but if the beast shapes could show armor I would choose that option any day over current version.

Dracthyr also shapeshift.

Maybe they could do the animations with elemental dragon shapes for other races with specials. Crossing my fingers for them to reconsider class avaibility

Doubtful, but I could see some elemental/storm Dracthyr skins popping up in the future.

[Kharnath]

Your Dracthyr doesn't exist because it doesn't know about how to do other class skills as its been isolated for over 10 millennia and picking up a sword and being instantly skilled with it is delusional.

But shneeky shtelfy Tauren aren't? :P
Oh yeah that's right there's a few models ingame that are (apparently)
I recall a time when blizzard gave plausible reasons as to WHY certain races couldn't be certain classes.
Tauren hooves being the focus of why they can't be rogues...
Or rather couldn't...

[Paperfox]

Its a simple fact that the devs and the company knows whats better than random poster complaining on MMO champ, nothing you have said is even remotely good for the game. The only thing that does really mean nothing is all your own opinions on what you feel is better for the game, all that really matters is what the devs/company actually does.

You are the one complaining about devs when its not up to them what path the game takes, dont insult the ppl doing the actual work to create the game just because you dont get what you want.

I rarely do much in the beta as I want to experience the game / story for the first time with my friends.

Every time I get frustrated by some new system and ask the beta testers why they didn't tell the devs the system just doesn't work - the answer is always something like: We did, time and time again, and were ignored.

Just because the "devs" may actually know how to fix things, their priorities are to maximize all revenue streams, including player time. It is unfortunate that in many cases the devs take the heat for things management has decided on.

9.1.5 primarily fixed, or, at least, tried to fix the systems that beta testers had been talking about.

One can always hope that they will listen to the beta testers so a similar systems patch won't be required in DF.

[Syegfryed]

You're not even consistent in your criticisms. In your first comment, you're saying they're not spending effort and money, and in the last, you're saying they wasted time and money.

Its not hard to understand they had a small budget to do this thing, and they wasted putting scales and dual hair color on a blood elf form, is it?

I understand that you're dissatisfied with the Dracthyr. I understand you have other preferences that you think they should have gone with instead. You do have some really good points, but you shroud all of these behind accusations of laziness. I myself think the dracthyr model is too slender (they have announced variations in width that they're releasing in an article soon, so I'm holding final judgement until then). I feel like they should have a tank spec, as there is only currently one class with a tank and ranged DPS spec, but Blizzard has said that it goes against their feelings of being a spellcaster. Regardless of my criticisms, a lot of employees put a lot of effort into the dracthyr evoker, whether they were modelers, animators, class designers, quest designers, etc. Saying that the dracthyr evoker is lazy is undermining those people's work. I think it's far more constructive to discuss the exact details that are causing dissatisfaction and what could be done to improve them than accuse all those employees of being of lazy.

Yes, blizzard said their feelings that ""A DRAGON CLASS"" should be "pure spellcaster", for ~~some reasons~~ that have nothing to do with they being too lazy or incompetent to design a race with more than two specs. Cause a "DRAGON" fantasy is a monster that is well know for being a spellcaster, and not something that attack with their teeth and claws

Im not saying who did the model itself is lazy, (even if this is a re-used model of the legion demons) but who did the design and the idea and lore behind, and how you are forced to blood elf as visage form, and especially the people who approved this idea are the lazy ones.

[kenn9530]

snip

No matter how many players play the game or give feedback they dont know better than the devs, the devs have already discussed every possible thing that could happen in WoW and they and the company are the one who decide whats best for the game, there is nothing wrong with the game its just old and most ppl are getting bored, there is no feature that can help with a game that is past its time.

Breaking the integrity of the game is not good for the game, you are delusional if you think breaking lore just to get what you want is reasonable.

[Kiria]

Its not hard to understand they had a small budget to do this thing, and they wasted putting scales and dual hair color on a blood elf form, is it?



Yes, blizzard said their feelings that ""A DRAGON CLASS"" should be "pure spellcaster", for ~~some reasons~~ that have nothing to do with they being too lazy or incompetent to design a race with more than two specs. Cause a "DRAGON" fantasy is a monster that is well know for being a spellcaster, and not something that attack with their teeth and claws

Im not saying who did the model itself is lazy, (even if this is a re-used model of the legion demons) but who did the design and the idea and lore behind, and how you are forced to blood elf as visage form, and especially the people who approved this idea are the lazy ones.

Its blizzards class/race fantasy design, not yours, if you don't like it don't play it, no one's forcing you.

[kenn9530]

Indubitably true. They know better than any random poster. Most random mouth-breathers can barely create CO2 from O2.

They do not know better than a consensus of many players. When you have threads 100 pages long on the beta forums complaining about, say, Azerite armor, or legendary acquisition, or Torghast sucking, that should be treated deadly seriously and not discarded, even if it means you need to redesign systems or build new content that could delay release. I've been in pretty much every WoW beta since WotLK and quite a few alphas and EVERY single time, if there's a 100 page thread that isn't addressed, they have to go back in patch X.1 and X.2 and do their best to fix it after the fact. The devs were never right, the players in those threads were always proven correct. But by then the damage was done.

Organized feedback must be considered, even when or even particularly when it's consistently negative. Which it usually is, because who's writing super passionate screeds about a feature they enjoy? They just play it. Anyway not doing so has been their failing for this entire post-Ghostcrawler generation of WoW developers. GC wasn't perfect and I disagreed with many of his decisions, but you could talk to the guy.

They actually do know better than the whole player population combined, you know devs actually discuss everything right and have considered every possible feature the game can possibly implement, what the whole playerbase thinks is better for a game is not actually what is better for the game.

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Just because you like something doesn't mean its not lazy.

Im not talking about the system, zones, ro whatever, thats not my point, im talking about the class and the race and whow ork with it.


there is too many raids and dungeons so they are not require to amke anymore, blablabla, the same nonsense over and over.

If theya re not going to do something decent maybe they should not have done at all

You are claiming the devs are lazy, when infact they are not, they can do whatever they want for the game and creating a whole new class/race is not lazy in the slightest.

Raids and dungeons are only relevant per expansion so there are not too many of them actually, its not for you to decide what they should or shouldn't do, just because you are not getting what you want.

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Yes, blizzard said their feelings that ""A DRAGON CLASS"" should be "pure spellcaster", for ~~some reasons~~ that have nothing to do with they being too lazy or incompetent to design a race with more than two specs. Cause a "DRAGON" fantasy is a monster that is well know for being a spellcaster, and not something that attack with their teeth and claws

Im not saying who did the model itself is lazy, (even if this is a re-used model of the legion demons) but who did the design and the idea and lore behind, and how you are forced to blood elf as visage form, and especially the people who approved this idea are the lazy ones.

The lore was already set instone that dragons are spellcasters, they have always been that way and they dont wear armour, you just want to break the games intergrity just to satisfy you not getting what you want, creating a whole new race/class is not lazy at all.

[Lex Icon]

the race might've gotten some some playtime from me if other classes was an option.
i'm not interested in the class.

kinda like i hate it when other games do the whole gender locked classes and every cool new thing ends up female(which i'm not interested in playing).

[Supertoster]

The lore was already set instone that dragons are spellcasters, they have always been that way and they dont wear armour, you just want to break the games intergrity just to satisfy you not getting what you want, creating a whole new race/class is not lazy at all.

And yet almost all dragon bosses are melee. And Deathwing in Hots is a melee character.
Also, no matter what Teriz says, Dracthyr are not dragons. They are a different thing. They are part of dragonkin family, but they are not dragons at all.

[kenn9530]

And yet almost all dragon bosses are melee. And Deathwing in Hots is a melee character.
Also, no matter what Teriz says, Dracthyr are not dragons. They are a different thing. They are part of dragonkin family, but they are not dragons at all.

Nope most of all dragons actual deadly attacks are magic, dragons are just strong so its going to do some damage when it slaps your face, the game is not great a doing fights boss mobs doing at least basic melee attacks that are just filler attacks while they charge the real attacks, dracthyr are dragons they have dragon blood and made from a dragon. A mage can still punch but what does more damage a melee attack or a magic blast.

[Syegfryed]

Its blizzards class/race fantasy design, not yours, if you don't like it don't play it, no one's forcing you.

Ok, who said it was mine? if you are going to attempt a half-asset fallacy and not make an argument don't quote me, if you don't agree ignore it, lmao

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They actually do know better than the whole player population combined, you know devs actually discuss everything right and have considered every possible feature the game can possibly implement, what the whole playerbase thinks is better for a game is not actually what is better for the game.

You say that, and in the very first page of mmo champion there is a quote by blizzard themselves refuting you:

The season 4 M+ mount and Gladiator mount are pretty awful in terms of recolor. The M+ is like 2 shades different then the season 1 mount.

We’ve received and agreed with a lot of feedback about the color scheme for the Keystone Master mount for Season 4. It did look too similar to the Season 2 Soultwisted Deathwalker mount.

Our art team has updated it so that the colors are more unique, like the other Keystone Master mounts. Here’s a preview for you:

https://media.mmo-champion.com/image...asterMount.jpg

Let us know what you think, and thanks again for all of the feedback that led to the Season 4 Deathwalker getting its new appearance.

You are claiming the devs are lazy, when infact they are not, they can do whatever they want for the game and creating a whole new class/race is not lazy in the slightest.

Create a half-asset class/race it is lazy, when the standarts were a lot higher before.

The lore was already set instone that dragons are spellcasters,

IT is not, the expansion did not release yet, and even it did, it can be updated.

Dragons are more melee monsters than spellcasters, in fact, dragons spellcasters is a rare sight

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Nope most of all dragons actual deadly attacks are magic

Completely false, dragons attack with tails, claws and their maw, and they o their breath, they do not rely on magic like a spellcaster is, and thats why this class is a failure of trying to pretend to b a dragon.

[kenn9530]

snip

Its a simple fact that companies will say things to appease the players so they think thier feedback is important. If they really thought player feedback was important you would have many different changes in the game, this has not happened ever.

Any one can attack with a melee attack, it doesnt mean its thier strongest attacks, the breath attacks in WoW are magic attacks, the WoW dragon is entirely based around being a magic being, its the whole point in the dragons in WoW, everything about them is magic.

The lore was already set as soon as dragons were written in WoW lore, they have always been magical creatures, every dangerous attack a dragon has is magic based, thier melee attacks are strong but it still doesnt mean they are suited for it when they could wipe out entire cities with thier magic, a simple claw attack cant do that.

You have already lost the argument over and over and yet refuse to admit you are wrong about it, seems you are a little too far gone.

Blizzard themselves dont believe your own thinking so you are not going to convince anyone else.

[Syegfryed]

Its a simple fact that companies will say things to appease the players so they think thier feedback is important. If they really thought player feedback was important you would have many different changes in the game, this has not happened ever.

Then why did they changed after the players asking?

Do you think this a 4d chess that they on purpose made this way, to change later, to say they listen to feedback?

Any one can attack with a melee attack, it doesnt mean its thier strongest attacks, the breath attacks in WoW are magic attacks, the WoW dragon is entirely based around being a magic being, its the whole point in the dragons in WoW, everything about them is magic.

Dragon breath is not magic, its an natural ability lmao.

wow dragons is about ripping and tearing with their teeth and claws, this is the basic fantasy of a dragon.

You have already lost the argument over and over and yet refuse to admit you are wrong about it, seems you are a little too far gone.

"lost argument" lmao, you are the perfect example of someone playing pigeon chess

Blizzard themselves dont believe your own thinking so you are not going to convince anyone else.

ITs not a matter of believing, its a matter doing something half-asset to cut costs.

[kenn9530]

Then why did they changed after the players asking?

Do you think this a 4d chess that they on purpose made this way, to change later, to say they listen to feedback?



Dragon breath is not magic, its an natural ability lmao.

wow dragons is about ripping and tearing with their teeth and claws, this is the basic fantasy of a dragon.



"lost argument" lmao, you are the perfect example of someone playing pigeon chess



ITs not a matter of believing, its a matter doing something half-asset to cut costs.

They only do things they were going to do anyway when its suitable to make them money.

A breath attack is magic lol do you not understand WoW at all, have you not paid attention anytime you have ever done anything with dragons, you really dont understand anything or are just wanting to lie to suit your own agenda. They all have different attacks depending on the magic they use otherwise all dragons would just breath fire, in WoW these breaths are magic.

Blizzard are the ones who do the lore and they are telling you dragons are magic beings, they are spellcasters, they created a whole new race/class so its not half assed no matter what you seem to think.

Anytime you dont get what you want you just claim they are lazy, and then make up invalid reasons why they should change it.