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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Reap what you sow.
    Disney and other big companies spend years/decades funding crazy monsters and the problem with these monsters is that it's never enough because there is always somebody worse.

    Palin used to be seen as the crazy stupid republican...
    Agee. This was my big point on donations to insurrectionist. Corporations and many rich people are people in general would rather have tax cuts then look into that maybe a party or at leas people in that party don't have good will to the people. These people did the good ole "stop donations" for about 6 months, then went right back to donating.

    Sadly in our political climate, which mirrors hyper capitalism is the only way to get through to these people is by taking away their money. As I stated at least compromise to go with the less offender, but you stated Palin is main stream now, so maybe we are doomed.
    “There is a cult of ignorance in the United States…. [It is] nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.’”

    -Isaac Asimov

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    If this where a thread about Disneys abuses, you might have a point but it isn’t. You are the one who kept trying to equate pointing out how the GOP is trying to punish Disney for doing the right thing with wholesale support of corporations.

    And you were the one ignoring how multiple people have mentioned disneys abuses in the past we agree should be dealt with.

    So, try again…
    It is a bit of a pickle for you isn’t it. I’m not referencing any of Disney’s abuses, haven’t even mentioned them. I’m not sure exactly what agenda you think I’ve got but I’d put myself mostly in alignment with @Endus, right move, wrong reasons.

    Edit: and I’d add, wrong way to do it.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Redwyrm View Post
    Disney dodges taxes (not accurate, but for the sake of the illustration) - "You get what you deserve you giant corporation, *shakes fist*"

    Trump dodges taxes - "Good job sticking it to da MAN" "Just evidence of smart business if you can avoid paying taxes"
    To add to this, 99.9% of these people do not and will never have these tax break advantages available to them. Just the same they are brainwashed in not taking government entitlements, while Disney and the rich take government money in a nano-second when offered.
    “There is a cult of ignorance in the United States…. [It is] nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.’”

    -Isaac Asimov

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyonai View Post
    I think this whole situation is more about people's thinning patience and growing frustration with Republican double-think than being Pro super-corporation. They had no issue with corporations spending money on political activism and/or making political statements up until the moment a large brand name decided to make the smallest amount of pushback against a piece of legislation in their home state; and now suddenly 'Corporate Free Speech' doesn't matter anymore to them as they work to legislatively retaliate against a corporation that dared question them.

    Like I'd be 100% down for having Disney knocked a few pegs because they fuckin' deserve it, but - as pointed out already - this piece of legislation is shortsightedly stupid and is trying to go after them for the dumbest possible reasons. It's like revoking tax credits to Exxon in their Oil drilling ventures because the CEO made a half-hearted statement about how domestic violence is probably bad after the state their HQ is in passed a 'Pro wife kicking' act. Like yeah a giant corp like that doesn't need the credits, but c'mon.
    Disney’s hardly the first example of a large corporation wading into the political arena, I put this move down to a nascent and vocal portion of the Republican base who are tired of being dictated to by those who think themselves their betters. It’s blatant pandering to that group even if I agree on some level.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by D3thray View Post
    It is a bit of a pickle for you isn’t it. I’m not referencing any of Disney’s abuses, haven’t even mentioned them. I’m not sure exactly what agenda you think I’ve got but I’d put myself mostly in alignment with @Endus, right move, wrong reasons.

    Edit: and I’d add, wrong way to do it.
    Not a pickle for me at all, I addressed in supporting Disney in this one instance as they did nothing wrong but should be held to account for the wrong stuff they should. You on the other hand have equated supporting Disney doing the right thing with supporting corporations period from the moment you quoted me.

    You put your agenda on full display from the willful dis-ingeniousness of your opening remark.

    Your the one that opened up with "When exactly did corporatism become synonymous with Democrats? That one really snuck up on me. " pretending the entire context of everything that was happening didn't happen or wasn't relevant.

    Try again.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by D3thray View Post
    I put this move down to a nascent and vocal portion of the Republican base who are tired of being dictated to by those who think themselves their betters.
    Not at all. They were perfectly fine with the previous corporate involvement in the political arena as long as it favored them. They just finally found themselves on the wrong end of Disney and are big-mad as a result, because it was never about actual corporate involvement in politics - which is actually Free Speech that Republicans claim to love and support - it was about whether or not that involvement benefitted their party and policies.

    Quote Originally Posted by D3thray View Post
    It’s blatant pandering to that group even if I agree on some level.
    It's exclusively pandering to reactionaries that fantasize about Mickey Mouse having sex with Pluto (Ted Cruz) and that Disney is "grooming" children.

  7. #67
    I am Murloc! Poopymonster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Not at all. They were perfectly fine with the previous corporate involvement in the political arena as long as it favored them. They just finally found themselves on the wrong end of Disney and are big-mad as a result, because it was never about actual corporate involvement in politics - which is actually Free Speech that Republicans claim to love and support - it was about whether or not that involvement benefitted their party and policies.



    It's exclusively pandering to reactionaries that fantasize about Mickey Mouse having sex with Pluto (Ted Cruz) and that Disney is "grooming" children.
    They republicunts are rather vehement about their perception of non-hetero/non-cis people taking advantage of children. They don't want anyone setting up on their terf.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok

  8. #68
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3thray View Post
    I get your arguments, I really do. It’s so hard for me to mentally get past the idea of corporate control being the better option, especially when I know plenty of the posters should in principle be ideologically opposed. It’s a bit of a mind-blow honestly but I suppose I’m glad to know there is a point where pragmatism Trumps ideology. Or at least I choose to believe that’s what is going on.

    Totally agree on the political hit thing though, completely transparent.
    The thing is, I'm not nearly as ideological as people seem to think. Yes, I'm a democratic socialist, but that's for practical reasons. I support an incrementalist transition into a socialist economy, because a radical shift causes too much havoc all at once, and people get hurt. And that's my main focus; the benefit to the average individual.

    So when it comes to an issue like this, I don't take a an ideological stance about how I think things should work in an ideal alternative reality, I take a very realist stance about the practical outcomes of the changes in question and how they're gonna directly impact the folks in the area.

    Do I think megacorps like Disney and the power and influence they wield are "good"? Fuck no. Do I think Disney's been particularly abusive in this particular respect? Not in a noteworthy way that I've seen, though I'd be willing to consider new information as to that. Do I think just fucking them over like DeSantis is threatening is a good move? Fuck no, because it's being done for amoral fascist reasons, targeted unfairly, and isn't about the principles, just hurting a company that dared buck the State government. And it's likely to hurt a lot of innocents in the process, which is on DeSantis, not Disney. I'd never have argued that the status quo was the "right way to go", but I'd simultaneously have made arguments to pay state and country staff enough and hold them to high enough standards that there wasn't anything to be gained in the first place.

    In a capitalist hellscape, a moderately conscientious corporation is the "best available option", oftentimes. That doesn't mean it's the best option possible, but the better alternatives aren't feasible at this moment, for one reason or another.


  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Redwyrm View Post
    Disney dodges taxes (not accurate, but for the sake of the illustration) - "You get what you deserve you giant corporation, *shakes fist*"

    Trump dodges taxes - "Good job sticking it to da MAN" "Just evidence of smart business if you can avoid paying taxes"
    Not just Trump, it's a little weird that Republicans are trying to make a "legal tax dodge" argument against Disney while simultaneously applauding every corporation and wealthy person in America for clever uses of tax law. Usually there's at least a little more buffer between Republican talking points and an absolute lack of self awareness.

  10. #70
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Your assumption that fascism can be concentrated and quarantined and doesn't spread is an... errant one.

    Missouri is already moving to make it legal for people to claim bounties on people who help Missouri women receive abortions in other states, completely outside the purview of Missouri law.

    Moreover, the GOP voting power of Texas and Florida mean that they are a constant threat to legislation and progress on a national scale. Were either of those states to fall from GOP favor, the Republicans would never have a shot at the white house again. And given their tenure in the past... well, let's generously say only 6 years, that sounds like a mighty fine prospect to me.

    Fascism need always be ripped out from the root and routed at every turn. Saying "fascists, go live there, we're good over here" is a great way to concentrate a bunch of hateful bigots who then start to decide they want to spread... by force, if necessary, because they aren't content to not just have you in their immediate vicinity... they don't want you around, anywhere.
    Yeah but personally I believe letting Florida and states like Texas do what they want they can become examples of Alt-Right Trumpster government, which I know would fail. But more importantly everyone else would see exactly what they don't want to be and finally stop voting for these clowns.
    #ANTIFA "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    I believe letting Florida and states like Texas do what they want they can become examples of Alt-Right Trumpster government, which I know would fail. But more importantly everyone else would see exactly what they don't want to be and finally stop voting for these clowns.
    We are literally seeing the opposite right now.

  12. #72
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    Problem is, as we saw with the Texas abortion bill, other GOP states take notes and then mirror these asinine bills. It won’t stop in Florida.
    True but none of these states I have any faith in nor would ever want to live in and as I stated, with the complete failure they become without and constraints they will be less popular not more. People need to stop treating this like it's a spectator sport, until that happens we will never be rid of Alt-Right or Trumpsters.


    I specifically say Alt-Right or Trumpsters because the GOP and Conservatives died a long time ago. Along with Patriots in the Republican Party. Along with anyone still spewing that nonsense there is no difference between the two parties.
    #ANTIFA "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    We are literally seeing the opposite right now.
    Yeah like... Kansas fuckin' imploded on itself because of an over-implementation of GOP policy making and yet people just forget that happened. Letting stupid play out only benefits the stupid people, because it's harder to stop something with momentum than it is to cut it off from gaining that momentum in the first place.

  14. #74
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    We are literally seeing the opposite right now.
    Right now yes, because a few things the GOP has nothing to lose and they are desperate because they know if they fail to take the house or Senate, Trump their GOP Brand is dead.

    That is why there is violence on the alt-right and that is why they are being more aggressive
    #ANTIFA "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  15. #75
    Just so we are clear in the discussion. There is no tax break/advantage for Disney from Reedy Creek Special District. Disney still pays property tax to Orange and Osceola Counties just like any other property owners in these two counties. It pays sales tax, business tax, hotel occupancy tax, etc. to the State of Florida. Just like any other businesses in Florida.

    The Special District designation gives it certain governing authorities. Which was necessary at the time that it was established in the 1960s. Back then, neither Orange County, nor Osceola County, were equipped to deal with a development project the magnitude of Disney World. The state of Florida back then did not have building codes which address monorail construction, or fiberglass building, or faux rockwork. Which meant that Disney would not have been able to build Spaceship Earth, Jungle Cruise, the monorail, etc.
    Last edited by Rasulis; 2022-04-22 at 08:55 PM.

  16. #76
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    Yeah but personally I believe letting Florida and states like Texas do what they want they can become examples of Alt-Right Trumpster government, which I know would fail. But more importantly everyone else would see exactly what they don't want to be and finally stop voting for these clowns.
    People don’t see that though, because the GOP messaging is that the democrats or some minority is stopping all of their conservative policies from being successful.

    There’s no limit to their scapegoating and shifting the blame. It’s always someone else’s fault that their policies don’t actually help the vast majority of their voter base.

    And even if people start to see through all of that failure, the GOP has been using their positions of power to basically rig the game in their favor, whether it be through disenfranchisement or their latest proposed shenanigans with elector tampering.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  17. #77
    Related, apparently Florida also tried to abolish Key West as a municipality because they weren't voting the way Republicans wanted them to.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    True but none of these states I have any faith in nor would ever want to live in and as I stated, with the complete failure they become without and constraints they will be less popular not more. People need to stop treating this like it's a spectator sport, until that happens we will never be rid of Alt-Right or Trumpsters.


    I specifically say Alt-Right or Trumpsters because the GOP and Conservatives died a long time ago. Along with Patriots in the Republican Party. Along with anyone still spewing that nonsense there is no difference between the two parties.
    Yeah, but the people that these Bills directly affect and who don't support them, can't just, like, move -- it's not an option for everyone. It's easy to say, "I'd never live there so who cares".

    You have to care if you live in the US cause it affects us all. These Bills aren't going to stop. It's going to spread and then what do people do... just live in Blue states?
    Fairy tales are more than true–not because they tell us dragons exist, but because they tell us dragons can be beaten. -G. K. Chesterton & Neil Gaiman

  19. #79
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    People don’t see that though, because the GOP messaging is that the democrats or some minority is stopping all of their conservative policies from being successful.

    There’s no limit to their scapegoating and shifting the blame. It’s always someone else’s fault that their policies don’t actually help the vast majority of their voter base.

    And even if people start to see through all of that failure, the GOP has been using their positions of power to basically rig the game in their favor, whether it be through disenfranchisement or their latest proposed shenanigans with elector tampering.
    You’re right but at this point there aren’t many options. Besides what I said. I much rather organize and prioritize on the left for the fight instead of all the distractions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    Yeah, but the people that these Bills directly affect and who don't support them, can't just, like, move -- it's not an option for everyone. It's easy to say, "I'd never live there so who cares".

    You have to care if you live in the US cause it affects us all. These Bills aren't going to stop. It's going to spread and then what do people do... just live in Blue states?
    The lines are being drawn. You make great points but yes people will likely have to move according to where they want to be.
    #ANTIFA "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    The lines are being drawn. You make great points but yes people will likely have to move according to where they want to be.
    If only this was practical for most folks. But like...just picking up and moving states is not remotely practical for the vast majority of Americans. Hence why the, "if you don't like it just leave" argument holds no actual water.

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