I'll be honest, I'm not a big fan of the old talents coming back.

[Vampyrr]

There's still cookie-cutter builds out there now, especially with the limited talents. At least with the old system, it felt like you were getting something more than just a noise and some other stupid little thing when you leveled. Even if it was just a talent point to stick into a talent so you got 4% extra crit chance instead of 3%, you still felt you were growing in some way.

That was a BAD system though. It is not good to bring failed systems back for nostalgia sake.

[Aydinx2]

That was a BAD system though. It is not good to bring failed systems back for nostalgia sake.

The system didn't "fail", and the new talents were not any better when they were implemented.
Also it's an RPG. Growth is important.

The idea that talents need to be a "I choose how I want to play" system has never been correct. Blizz has stated it being a problem but that was only until they invented borrowed power systems. After that suddenly it was ok to have 1 specific build work for a specific scenario (which is the same how it was with old trees).

Now we don't have borrowed power because people keep telling them it sucks and suddenly they have time to change the talents.

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Go play a mobile game because even FF14 and BDO would be to diffult for you to understand.

Lucky them in ~40 minutes.

[Firefall]

That was a BAD system though. It is not good to bring failed systems back for nostalgia sake.

From what extremely little we've seen, it looks like it's more that they've repackaged/skinned the current talent system to resemble the old one, and given it a bunch of new passives like azerite. So I'm actually not too concerned, the nostalgia pandering looks like a trick.

[Diaphin]

You shouldn't have to play an old copy of the game to experience content. I'm a big fan of forcing players to get geared through the tiers up to current content. Nowadays we make patch "9.x" irrelevant with the new content. Why would a new player being forced into older content suffer? They literally never completed the old patch/raid yet; thus, it is new content. Meanwhile, those who completed the old content are geared enough to progress forward. All we need is super good catch up mechanisms for alt characters.

Because that was the biggest factor that gatekept people out of content back in the day, thats why Blizz introduced catch-up methods in wotlk, the pool of people who will do the old content with you to gear up becomes ever smaller.

[VinceVega]

Dude. They've actually repeatedly said you will NOT be able to share talents at launch.

So keeping saying you can share them is flatly wrong. You can go back and check interviews etc. if you want. So you're already claiming as a "fact" something that isn't true. They haven't even confirmed that they're going to add that AFAIK, just that they've heard its something people want.

I just read over the interview and watched the spotlight again. I did not catch anyone say this will no be available.
Also this:


Directly from the presentation. Maybe i missed something but please show me where then because i didn't find.

If they said that. Ok. Then i was wrong. But i don't see anything pointing in that direction for now.

Even if it is not sharable and this was just a red herring for whatever reason. It is 9-11 rows.... open a tab click without reading. Done.

[NineSpine]

Its everygreen to a certain degree, but there isn't really any reward to run most of the old content synced compared to just running it synced, especially since class changes and ongoing pruning make replaying the content alot more clunky than they originally had been. It speaks more for FF14s lack of any current content, that people praise levelsynced raiding as a grand feature, as players in WoW for the longest time before the level squish could creat alts just as easily and run the current at the appropriate level, it was actually done to get the Algalon archievment. And outside of the specific circumstances of getting a group to do savage raids or ex trials unsynced, the levelsync feature is more of an obstacle for the most part, as it usually forces you to play most roulettes, which make up the majority of daily content of this game, with a highly restricted skillset for your class. Does anyone have actually fun doing labyrinth of ancients or ARR dungeons when you get them in your daily roulettes?

Actually you can experience lots of content in a state like it was when it was current, thats what classic is doing. And actually, no you won't be able to experience levensynced content the way how it was originally supposed to be either, because of ongoing class changes and pruning which make the experience in synced content ever worse. And I would argue its a luxury of WoW to be able to abandon old content as easily, as it is one of the few MMOs that can creat a swath of new content both outdoors and in terms of instanced raiding every single major patch. FF14 doesn't has that. FF14 struggles to creat eureka-esque zones in a decent pace, which are more grind-heavy and less single-player friendly compared to the usual outdoor zones and activities WoW offers with each patch. Not to forget that if you think Class Balancing in WoW is bad, whats with FF14 then? I played a DRK for the longest time in that game and it took literal years and multiple expansions for SE to fix as simple issues like rewamping Living Dead and it took a major patch to change Blood Price, not to forget the very vocal DRK Playerbase that is highly dissatisfied with the current state of DRK and wish for it to return more to a playstyle similar to HW, which are just simply ignored. Or Healer Issues, with the WHM community being regularily ignored and the class usually being at the bottom of the healer classes for most expansions and the community in its entirety being fully ignored when it comes to the core issues of the role, them being the very low healing requirements even to the highest level of content and very bare dps toolkit that forces healer players to basically just spam 1 for the entirety of often more than 10 minutes long encounters. FF14 does many things rights, thats why its survived and became a competitor to WoW, but it is far from actually catching up to the level of content WoW offers and the professionalism that it has in terms of class design. The things where it is clearly ahead are writing and music, but the story is basically just 1 hour of content you get every few months.

Class balance is objectively better in FF14 than in WoW. It's just a fact. It comes at the cost of customization, but it is factually better. The difference between the best specs and the worst specs is significantly smaller than it is in wow, let alone the difference between the best specs and the worst specs *with the wrong talents*.

It's not that your criticisms of FF14 are invalid. I agree with them almost entirely (please no more ARR dungeons in queue, at least give me level 50 abilities for all of them), but the alternative to those things that wow has (throwing content in the trash every patch for example) is so much obnoxiously worse that it is silly to point out these minor quibbles with FF14.

The idea that FF14 doesn't put out content at the pace WoW does is simply false. FF14 has a much more aggressive patch schedule than WoW. FF14 is putting out 2-3 patches (arguably more because of end-expansion droughts) for every single patch WoW puts out. Let's see what we get for 2 patches in FF14:

6.1
Ultimate raid
Alliance raid
Unreal Trial
New MSQ
Dungeon
A significant amount of side story content
New housing district
New rep
New PvP mode (equivalent of a new BG)
Adventurer plate system
Overhauls to ARR dungeon systems

6.2
4-boss raid
Unreal trial
New dungeon
New MSQ
New criterion dungeon system
New island sanctuary system
More that hasn't been announced

Each of these patches is something like 66% - 75% of a wow patch, but we get two of them in the time it takes wow to deliver one. Most notable is the constant introduction of new evergreen content, like ultimate raids or new pvp modes or the island sanctuaries or new deep dungeons. Even if we put aside the idea that roulettes represent evergreen content, the fact that in three patches we are going to see all of the following evergreen content is crazy: island sanctuaries, new housing district, criterion dungeon system (this is presumed evergreen), a deep dungeon, two ultimate raids, a new pvp mode....

To say this is incomparable to wow is flatly dishonest, just like it is dishonest for you to talk about Eureka (blech) and ignore the absolutely massive amount of content that came with Bozja, which is yet another evergreen system.

[Royru]

The system didn't "fail", and the new talents were not any better when they were implemented.
Also it's an RPG. Growth is important.

The idea that talents need to be a "I choose how I want to play" system has never been correct. Blizz has stated it being a problem but that was only until they invented borrowed power systems. After that suddenly it was ok to have 1 specific build work for a specific scenario (which is the same how it was with old trees).

Now we don't have borrowed power because people keep telling them it sucks and suddenly they have time to change the talents.

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Lucky them in ~40 minutes.

I don’t agree with this being true with the old systems. One thing that held back and changed a TON of specs was one resource that isn’t AS important or at least it’s not as much of an issue today, which is mana.

For casters specifically you had a ton of different specs you could lean toward, and depending on your gear your build would go after a ton of different talents you wouldn’t normally specifically based on your mana.

[Vampyrr]

From what extremely little we've seen, it looks like it's more that they've repackaged/skinned the current talent system to resemble the old one, and given it a bunch of new passives like azerite. So I'm actually not too concerned, the nostalgia pandering looks like a trick.

Thats an alright system. What I dont need is a 1% or sometimes only .5% gains in a 0/5 format. Its not fun or compelling, those could just be baked into the level itself if that is what people want.

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Issue is the raids/dungeons do not compare to WoW raids/dungeons. The game isn't as complex and doesn't try to be which is fine. But they cater to different audiences.

[Utrrabbit]

That was a BAD system though. It is not good to bring failed systems back for nostalgia sake.

It was an amazing system. You are just factually wrong.

[matheney2k]

It's okay OP.

It's perfectly fine to share your wrong opinion

[Aydinx2]

...

They did say multiple times that sharing wouldn't be there. Not sure why the screenshot includes that then.

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Thats an alright system. What I dont need is a 1% or sometimes only .5% gains in a 0/5 format. Its not fun or compelling, those could just be baked into the level itself if that is what people want.

It's not about getting the stat. It's about the player getting a point and getting to spend it.
Why do you think Artifact Power wasn't automatic?

[Ersula]

I don't understand why people think talents add any sort of flavor, complexity or what have you.

There has, and always will be, right and wrong picks. Sure you can min/max it and choose the right and wrong talents for specific fights, but at the end of the day, there is no "flavor" in talents.

They are basically gear but in button form. You don't choose sub-par gear 'just because'.

I'd agree for the most part. But there were indeed on average more viable builds during the Talent Tree era than the Post-Cata era. There was nothing stopping them from supporting multiple optimal builds with the post-cata era of talents, but if they're not going to try to do that, going back to the tree is the next best thing.

[Utrrabbit]

They did say multiple times that sharing wouldn't be there. Not sure why the screenshot includes that then.

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It's not about getting the stat. It's about the player getting a point and getting to spend it.
Why do you think Artifact Power wasn't automatic?

They said it wont be at launch but it will be later.

[Diaphin]

Class balance is objectively better in FF14 than in WoW. It's just a fact. It comes at the cost of customization, but it is factually better. The difference between the best specs and the worst specs is significantly smaller than it is in wow, let alone the difference between the best specs and the worst specs *with the wrong talents*.

It's not that your criticisms of FF14 are invalid. I agree with them almost entirely (please no more ARR dungeons in queue, at least give me level 50 abilities for all of them), but the alternative to those things that wow has (throwing content in the trash every patch for example) is so much obnoxiously worse that it is silly to point out these minor quibbles with FF14.

The idea that FF14 doesn't put out content at the pace WoW does is simply false. FF14 has a much more aggressive patch schedule than WoW. FF14 is putting out 2-3 patches (arguably more because of end-expansion droughts) for every single patch WoW puts out. Let's see what we get for 2 patches in FF14:

6.1
Ultimate raid
Alliance raid
Unreal Trial
New MSQ
Dungeon
A significant amount of side story content
New housing district
New rep
New PvP mode (equivalent of a new BG)
Adventurer plate system
Overhauls to ARR dungeon systems

6.2
4-boss raid
Unreal trial
New dungeon
New MSQ
New criterion dungeon system
New island sanctuary system
More that hasn't been announced

Each of these patches is something like 66% - 75% of a wow patch, but we get two of them in the time it takes wow to deliver one. Most notable is the constant introduction of new evergreen content, like ultimate raids or new pvp modes or the island sanctuaries or new deep dungeons. Even if we put aside the idea that roulettes represent evergreen content, the fact that in three patches we are going to see all of the following evergreen content is crazy: island sanctuaries, new housing district, criterion dungeon system (this is presumed evergreen), a deep dungeon, two ultimate raids, a new pvp mode....

To say this is incomparable to wow is flatly dishonest, just like it is dishonest for you to talk about Eureka (blech) and ignore the absolutely massive amount of content that came with Bozja, which is yet another evergreen system.

The problem with the class balancing in FF14 is, that there is a pretty tight group composition in this game and any challenging raid mode is just 8 group spots and there are still some pretty significant differences between classes, so I would argue that differences at times are even worse than in WoW, especially since there are no other specs or roles to fall back on when you're class is currently performing badly. I don't know how its currently, but look at Summoner for example during 6.0. It was just objectively worse than any other caster and all the more if you compare it to Red Mage, which was just objectively better in every regard for the role its supposed to fulfill, being the more supportive caster who brings a rezz. Same with Machinist, which doesn't brings any support yet can't compete with selfish dps jobs either, so it is just not a good choice to bring.

And yeah, lots of FF14 content is evergreen in theory, but the question here is more of how engaging it is. Dungeons and Alliance Raids are content that become tiresome and old pretty fast, just due to the fact that its content on lfr and normal dungeon levels of difficulty. Especially new dungeons become just annoying after the first few runs, because the expert dungeon roulette system lets you do the same 2 or 3 dungeons every day and they are just ridiculously easy. And when it comes to Bozja, its better than Eureka, sure, but only evergreen to the extend of finding parties for the content. The same with MSQ, which is great an all, but pretty fast to play through and really only something thats engaging once. Criterion dungeons sound nice though.

Lets be real here, so far FF14 doesn't have the kinds of content that offers daily engagement and rewards to basically all levels of players that WoW has. And you act like FF14 has all contents stay relevant indefinitely, which is quite dishonest. In terms of progression, every its exactly the same like WoW, only in a 2 patch cyclus where there is an effective reset happening with catch-up gear once the next raid tier hits and we get new raid- tomestone and crafting gear, that renders everything before redundant.

[NineSpine]

The problem with the class balancing in FF14 is, that there is a pretty tight group composition in this game and any challenging raid mode is just 8 group spots and there are still some pretty significant differences between classes, so I would argue that differences at times are even worse than in WoW, especially since there are no other specs or roles to fall back on when you're class is currently performing badly. I don't know how its currently, but look at Summoner for example during 6.0. It was just objectively worse than any other caster and all the more if you compare it to Red Mage, which was just objectively better in every regard for the role its supposed to fulfill, being the more supportive caster who brings a rezz. Same with Machinist, which doesn't brings any support yet can't compete with selfish dps jobs either, so it is just not a good choice to bring.

And yeah, lots of FF14 content is evergreen in theory, but the question here is more of how engaging it is. Dungeons and Alliance Raids are content that become tiresome and old pretty fast, just due to the fact that its content on lfr and normal dungeon levels of difficulty. Especially new dungeons become just annoying after the first few runs, because the expert dungeon roulette system lets you do the same 2 or 3 dungeons every day and they are just ridiculously easy. And when it comes to Bozja, its better than Eureka, sure, but only evergreen to the extend of finding parties for the content. The same with MSQ, which is great an all, but pretty fast to play through and really only something thats engaging once. Criterion dungeons sound nice though.

Lets be real here, so far FF14 doesn't have the kinds of content that offers daily engagement and rewards to basically all levels of players that WoW has. And you act like FF14 has all contents stay relevant indefinitely, which is quite dishonest. In terms of progression, every its exactly the same like WoW, only in a 2 patch cyclus where there is an effective reset happening with catch-up gear once the next raid tier hits and we get new raid- tomestone and crafting gear, that renders everything before redundant.

"I don't like the evergreen content" isn't the same argument as "There isn't evergreen content".
"I don't like the new content" isn't the same argument as "They don't add enough new content."

These are dishonest conflations you are making. You can't complain that the game doesn't get enough content and then when the content is listed just start saying that you don't like that content so you don't count it. That's as silly as me saying "I don't like wow raids therefore FF14 has more raids".

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Issue is the raids/dungeons do not compare to WoW raids/dungeons. The game isn't as complex and doesn't try to be which is fine. But they cater to different audiences.

Remember when a group of hardcore world first wow raiders came to FF14 and practiced for six months to show us how its done and then came in.... 37th in the world first savage race? And then took their toys, went home, and didn't bother embarrassing themselves by taking part in the ultimate race?

I remember. Funny how all these people that declare FF14 so much less complex than WoW don't just come to FF14 and one shot all the bosses, claim world first, and laugh at everyone else.

[Makaloff]

They seem confusing, and I feel like I'll be stressed out by them, I've played Classic and have quit as the talents seem too extreme and such.
I prefer the WOD era talents as I started in Late MOP and boosted a fury warrior in warlords of Draenor, and I might miss the pick a talent, and boom, you read the thing and you pick a talent. That seems easy, but with this other system, I don't understand I'm not sure.

how does it stress you out? the talent tree pretty much uppgraded your abilities over time and honestly im liking they are bringing it back. current talent tree is just filled with dead talents and some stuff that is in there should be baseline for some classes and speccs even.

[alturic]

I'd agree for the most part. But there were indeed on average more viable builds during the Talent Tree era than the Post-Cata era. There was nothing stopping them from supporting multiple optimal builds with the post-cata era of talents, but if they're not going to try to do that, going back to the tree is the next best thing.

But when there's a system that deals with math, there will *always* be a right choice and a wrong choice. The absolute only way they could make talents have flavor, flair, choice, would be if they were cosmetic changes (animations or the like) and/or cosmetic changes with the same math behind them - at which point... what is the point (no pun intended) of the damn system.

[Aedruid]

Because that was the biggest factor that gatekept people out of content back in the day, thats why Blizz introduced catch-up methods in wotlk, the pool of people who will do the old content with you to gear up becomes ever smaller.

I guess I just don't see how this is a bad thing. Leveling is in of itself is a gatekeeping mechanism. Running higher keys in Mythic+ has gatekeeping via ilvls. Same for clearing mythic raids. Why would anew player experiencing all the content an expansion has to offer be bad? Nowadays in later patches you miss out on a year+ of content.

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But when there's a system that deals with math, there will *always* be a right choice and a wrong choice. The absolute only way they could make talents have flavor, flair, choice, would be if they were cosmetic changes (animations or the like) and/or cosmetic changes with the same math behind them - at which point... what is the point (no pun intended) of the damn system.

The older talent system was way easier to balance because of all the passive talents. 3% fire damage is easier to work with than 3 separate active abilities that have x^3 combinations.

[baseballfan]

confused? holy...

[Ashana Darkmoon]

I think my renewed concern is mostly not ending up with a ton more buttons. Some classes are already pushing the limits and beyond. It usually stinks to suddenly add like 3 active abilities from talents because of some change or set bonus (like how blood dk suddenly uses tombstone, blood tap, bonestorm, etc)