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  1. #301
    The Lightbringer Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uopayroll View Post
    You know who does love the talent trees coming back? Wowhead, Icy Veins, Elitist Jerks clones, class "experts" who will now have a lot more traffic heading their way as people go to find the current "tree of the month".

    Probably Preach and Asmond, and other "WoW Haters" who can then get views as they complain about the whack-a-mole game Blizz has to play to find class balance.
    The thing is, if Blizzard is at all succesful with this, optimal talents may well change per fight in raids or per dungeon and affix in M+. And world content will have different ones ofc. I think we will move more towards addons that load multiple setups and prompt you to switch them as needed (which exist already but will be much more necessary and may come with the setups themselves).

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The thing is, if Blizzard is at all succesful with this, optimal talents may well change per fight in raids or per dungeon and affix in M+. And world content will have different ones ofc. I think we will move more towards addons that load multiple setups and prompt you to switch them as needed (which exist already but will be much more necessary and may come with the setups themselves).
    Lol, that makes my thought even more so, if there is a "tree of the month" for each fight. We just have to wait and see how things go

  3. #303
    The best anyone can hope for is being within 3% or so from optimal and not. If they chance achieve that sort of balance i think they will have won and i say that to make people feel as if they are not picking the wrong talent.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Since MoP.

    Ever since the current talent system has existed, druids have had Affinity talent that lets them choose another of their specs and learn core spells from it.
    My bad. I wowpedia'd the affinities and only one of them had a changelog which said it was added in 7.0.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The thing is, if Blizzard is at all succesful with this, optimal talents may well change per fight in raids or per dungeon and affix in M+. And world content will have different ones ofc. I think we will move more towards addons that load multiple setups and prompt you to switch them as needed (which exist already but will be much more necessary and may come with the setups themselves).
    People already do this.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  5. #305
    Over 9000! Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    My bad. I wowpedia'd the affinities and only one of them had a changelog which said it was added in 7.0.
    No, fuck. I confused it with HotW's current design.

    MoP was pre-prune. We just HAD all of those offspec spells available. And HotW buffed the fuck out of them while it lasted. I used to tank first phase of Dark Animus as a Resto Druid with HotW active. Balance druid was also basically an extra raid healing CD. Pop HotW and Tranquility and you just topped the raid.

    WoD pruned those spells away, making offspecs un-usable because of the lack of spells, while keeping HotW with its offspec boosting role. Hilariously bad.

    Legion added talent trees that could be different for each spec, so it gave us the ability to have the Affinity tier. Finally got some offspec spells back. HotW got removed, so Affinities were mostly chosen for their passive bonuses (which mostly just meant Guardian and 10% damage reduction to non-guardians)

    And finally Shadowlands added back HotW, which now boosts the chosen Affinity's effect.
    Last edited by Lahis; 2022-05-12 at 10:21 PM.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    No, fuck. I confused it with HotW's current design.

    MoP was pre-prune. We just HAD all of those offspec spells available. And HotW buffed the fuck out of them while it lasted. I used to tank first phase of Dark Animus as a Resto Druid with HotW active. Balance druid was also basically an extra raid healing CD. Pop HotW and Tranquility and you just topped the raid.

    WoD pruned those spells away, making offspecs un-usable because of the lack of spells, while keeping HotW with its offspec boosting role. Hilariously bad.

    Legion added talent trees that could be different for each spec, so it gave us the ability to have the Affinity tier. Finally got some offspec spells back. HotW got removed, so Affinities were mostly chosen for their passive bonuses (which mostly just meant Guardian and 10% damage reduction to non-guardians)

    And finally Shadowlands added back HotW, which now boosts the chosen Affinity's effect.
    I remember a few things, like resto affinity's, or whatever its equivalent was, healing tick, being in WoD. It killed me a bunch of times on the Throne of Kil'jaeden cause at the time it bounced to any friendly passing by. Some guy would run through the area, aggro some stuff, keep running, and when he got away they'd revert to me cause I was on their aggro list. Got me killed a bunch of times.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    The main draw, for me at least, is going to be the ability to experiment with new combinations of talent choices. I think we can all be honest and acknowledge that there will be meta builds, and that this is inevitable; however, I think the option to be able to granularly customize some hyper-specialized, dumb builds is important in an MMO (like a modern-age Shockadin build).

    For instance, imagine if it was possible to make a Demonology Warlock build that could give up all major cooldowns in lieu of summoning more imps and gave you the ability to increase the power of your main Imp pet instead of your Felguard. That would be a fun idea for a build, but would be awful and off meta. But even if it's off meta, who would want to stop an aspiring Gnome Warlock from attaining a personal title of "The Implord" on an RP server? As someone who has played OSRS and other games where someone else making the wrong choice doesn't necessarily affect you, it's always fun to see a "cute noob" that's doing something that's in every way wrong.
    Instead of felguard you get a imp that summons more imps every felfirebolt. Imp me daddy
    Quote Originally Posted by TrollHunter3000 View Post
    How the fuck is this trolling?

    Discussing moderation is against the rules. Infracted.

  8. #308
    Over 9000! Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I remember a few things, like resto affinity's, or whatever its equivalent was, healing tick, being in WoD. It killed me a bunch of times on the Throne of Kil'jaeden cause at the time it bounced to any friendly passing by. Some guy would run through the area, aggro some stuff, keep running, and when he got away they'd revert to me cause I was on their aggro list. Got me killed a bunch of times.
    Ysera's Gift was its own talent in WoD. In Legion it was baked into Restoration spec/affinity

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Vampyrr View Post
    Lol not even close it was a terrible awful system and the game is better for its removal

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    I mean 6 months is a very short time to learn a game you have 0 experience with. Most dont even get max lvl in that timeframe
    You can't simultaneously claim the game is easy mode and then say it takes more than 6 months for legitimate e-sports professionals to learn to play it.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The thing is, if Blizzard is at all succesful with this, optimal talents may well change per fight in raids or per dungeon and affix in M+. And world content will have different ones ofc. I think we will move more towards addons that load multiple setups and prompt you to switch them as needed (which exist already but will be much more necessary and may come with the setups themselves).
    lol blizzard successful at this. i got a great laugh out of this.

    I have to ask you, when have they ever been completely successful at balancing talents and/or specs for all classes?

    The answer is never. Now your changing talent tree, adding more talents, another class and 2 more specs.... and im sure new abilities and new talents for current classes and specs as we level not to mention new trinkets and set bonuses.

    Aint no way in hell are they going to make this work successfully. It will be more FOTM then ever before. Get ready to swipe them credit cards to buy them boosts for your favorite OP class of the month if you dont have it already.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by uopayroll View Post
    Lol, that makes my thought even more so, if there is a "tree of the month" for each fight. We just have to wait and see how things go
    I think the overarching issue has less to do with the talent systems and more to do with how Blizz balances the game. The real question is how much difference is there between FOTM ultra-tuned talent tree builds and "good enough" builds and "I picked random things because why not" builds. Furthermore, does the difference between all these different types of talent builds in relation to the content itself.

    While there are many tangential issues with the raiding difficulty constantly getting amp up over time, one impact is how talents need to be tuned. The tighter you tune encounters, the tighter Blizz will need to tune talents to avoid dead talents or cookie-cutter talent trends being the only viable builds.

    Now, let's just say as an extreme example to illustrate a trend... cut the content difficulty in half (not advocating for this extreme, just using it as an example). Suddenly, whatever you choose probably doesn't matter. You can certainly optimize your talent builds, but in the end it's not necessary at all. Heck, you could probably not even take any talents and potentially do fine in the content.

    The correct answer lies somewhere in the middle, however Blizz has been trending towards the former example of pushing the difficulty/tuning so much that not having an optimized build is extremely detrimental. The middle ground is that you can leverage optimal talent builds without making the process of choosing talents feel absolutely worthless. However, as I just described, this is an effect of the way Blizz tunes and balances the game in other areas beyond just talents... so more fundamental changes need to happen at Blizz to achieve what should be the optimal balance.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    You are 1000% wrong. In every single way.
    Not even close baby

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by LuxTheGamer View Post
    It's not really silly, and Idk why people are saying it's alpha and stuff, Blizz doesn't exactly listen to people who critique such systems, this is how we got Azerite Power and stuff which are different, but still.

    And what made the old ones difficult is that there were points and shit, that's annoying, I just want to pick talent from a big menu and bam talents that you earn as you level from just clicking on them, there are no points shit to increase how effective it is. And the menu/screenshot of the system looks exactly like the old one.

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    Sometimes I trust Blizzard, sometimes I don't.
    Blizzard ALWAYS listens. NOt caving to your every demand and complaint does not = not listening to you. That means they disagree with you. "Ignoring" does not mean what you think it means.

  14. #314
    We need the calculators sooner rather than later because I wanna know if I can build an ST or AE build on my Monk

    The idea is super fun to think about because either it's not extremely different and just gives us new combos of abilities and talents OR it is enough for you to be able to choose what abilities to get and how to change them
    For example:
    As a WW my AE build could be
    FoF
    Clones
    Cleaving BOK
    Bone dust brew
    For ST:
    RSK
    Tiger eye brew
    Weapons of order
    Xuen

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    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Blizzard ALWAYS listens. NOt caving to your every demand and complaint does not = not listening to you. That means they disagree with you. "Ignoring" does not mean what you think it means.
    What would you call them saying "no you are wrong" then a year later saying "actually you are right but you had a better time with our inferior design than you would have with the better one"

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonsworn 4 Lyfe View Post
    We need the calculators sooner rather than later because I wanna know if I can build an ST or AE build on my Monk

    The idea is super fun to think about because either it's not extremely different and just gives us new combos of abilities and talents OR it is enough for you to be able to choose what abilities to get and how to change them
    For example:
    As a WW my AE build could be
    FoF
    Clones
    Cleaving BOK
    Bone dust brew
    For ST:
    RSK
    Tiger eye brew
    Weapons of order
    Xuen

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    What would you call them saying "no you are wrong" then a year later saying "actually you are right but you had a better time with our inferior design than you would have with the better one"
    Not once has Blizzard said "No you are wrong" to anyone. They never said you were right either. Things change as the expansion gets further along in cycle. They implement things when it is the right time in the cycle as they want to go through the game as intended once.

  16. #316
    ]

    The m+ cache in BfA at launch
    Covenant swapping
    Soul binds

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Blizzard ALWAYS listens. NOt caving to your every demand and complaint does not = not listening to you. That means they disagree with you. "Ignoring" does not mean what you think it means.
    Quoted for so many truths it's not even funny. Why do people equate listening with obeying?
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  18. #318
    I actually liked borrowed power. The criticism of it seemed to be just people repeating the words of 2-3 streamers. I don't think they really thought about it.

    Borrowed power meant we got interesting new abilities every xpac. A returns to talents means less content, less diverse builds, less scope for creativity, a really, really dull game.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    But when there's a system that deals with math, there will *always* be a right choice and a wrong choice. The absolute only way they could make talents have flavor, flair, choice, would be if they were cosmetic changes (animations or the like) and/or cosmetic changes with the same math behind them - at which point... what is the point (no pun intended) of the damn system.
    Pretty much. Time and time again people have shown they will take the path of least resistance and just take what’s optimal instead of “experimenting”. And, just like before, people will require the “right” build for you to get into their groups.

  20. #320
    Scarab Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theangryone View Post
    Pretty much. Time and time again people have shown they will take the path of least resistance and just take what’s optimal instead of “experimenting”. And, just like before, people will require the “right” build for you to get into their groups.
    The key difference with the proposed system is that you can change how you're spec'd inside instances and so on with saved setups, so there won't be one "right" build. The "right" build for one specific boss won't be the same as another.

    Now, you can say "THAT'S EVEN WORSE!!!" and maybe you're right, but I suspect the reality is that we will see more experimentation and more competing ideas on this. Sure most players won't be doing the experimenting, but that's never not been the case. The only game I can think of where even normal players did was Diablo 3, and this system is closer to D3's approach than anything we've seen before (and ultimately D3 required you to get specific sets to compete, and that made most choices invalid).

    Quote Originally Posted by stansted12 View Post
    I actually liked borrowed power. The criticism of it seemed to be just people repeating the words of 2-3 streamers. I don't think they really thought about it.

    Borrowed power meant we got interesting new abilities every xpac. A returns to talents means less content, less diverse builds, less scope for creativity, a really, really dull game.
    Wow, that's a pretty silly assumption.

    Some of us have been playing MMOs a lot longer than any of the current WoW streamers, and were used to games which didn't have borrowed power. There's no doubt streamers popularized the specific term, but people disliking it is absolutely a real thing and predates the usage of the term.

    You liking it is fine - it wasn't a total disaster - but equally not having it should be fine. We'll likely still get "new abilities every xpac", just as a new tier of talents (or even off to the sides or whatever).
    "A youtuber said so."

    "... some wow experts being interviewed..."

    "According to researchers from Wowhead..."

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