I'll be honest, I'm not a big fan of the old talents coming back.

[Eurhetemec]

Pretty much. Time and time again people have shown they will take the path of least resistance and just take what’s optimal instead of “experimenting”. And, just like before, people will require the “right” build for you to get into their groups.

The key difference with the proposed system is that you can change how you're spec'd inside instances and so on with saved setups, so there won't be one "right" build. The "right" build for one specific boss won't be the same as another.

Now, you can say "THAT'S EVEN WORSE!!!" and maybe you're right, but I suspect the reality is that we will see more experimentation and more competing ideas on this. Sure most players won't be doing the experimenting, but that's never not been the case. The only game I can think of where even normal players did was Diablo 3, and this system is closer to D3's approach than anything we've seen before (and ultimately D3 required you to get specific sets to compete, and that made most choices invalid).

I actually liked borrowed power. The criticism of it seemed to be just people repeating the words of 2-3 streamers. I don't think they really thought about it.

Borrowed power meant we got interesting new abilities every xpac. A returns to talents means less content, less diverse builds, less scope for creativity, a really, really dull game.

Wow, that's a pretty silly assumption.

Some of us have been playing MMOs a lot longer than any of the current WoW streamers, and were used to games which didn't have borrowed power. There's no doubt streamers popularized the specific term, but people disliking it is absolutely a real thing and predates the usage of the term.

You liking it is fine - it wasn't a total disaster - but equally not having it should be fine. We'll likely still get "new abilities every xpac", just as a new tier of talents (or even off to the sides or whatever).

[Celement]

Pretty much. Time and time again people have shown they will take the path of least resistance and just take what’s optimal instead of “experimenting”. And, just like before, people will require the “right” build for you to get into their groups.

I am mildly surprised they wouldn't just do away with talents outside of pvp where you use addons to build around what you will be fighting.

Talents are not whimsical choices... they boil down to how many mobs are you fighting on the high end side and if you wanna click more buttons or have a passive on the low end.

[Theangryone]

The key difference with the proposed system is that you can change how you're spec'd inside instances and so on with saved setups, so there won't be one "right" build. The "right" build for one specific boss won't be the same as another.

Now, you can say "THAT'S EVEN WORSE!!!" and maybe you're right, but I suspect the reality is that we will see more experimentation and more competing ideas on this. Sure most players won't be doing the experimenting, but that's never not been the case. The only game I can think of where even normal players did was Diablo 3, and this system is closer to D3's approach than anything we've seen before (and ultimately D3 required you to get specific sets to compete, and that made most choices invalid).



Wow, that's a pretty silly assumption.

Some of us have been playing MMOs a lot longer than any of the current WoW streamers, and were used to games which didn't have borrowed power. There's no doubt streamers popularized the specific term, but people disliking it is absolutely a real thing and predates the usage of the term.

You liking it is fine - it wasn't a total disaster - but equally not having it should be fine. We'll likely still get "new abilities every xpac", just as a new tier of talents (or even off to the sides or whatever).

I would say it’s closer to what we have in Guild Wars 2 with build templates. With that system though, more often than not changing builds also requires a stat change on gear as well. Which would be a detriment in WoW if that is the case with gearing being much more difficult

[Skayth]

I actually liked borrowed power. The criticism of it seemed to be just people repeating the words of 2-3 streamers. I don't think they really thought about it.

Borrowed power meant we got interesting new abilities every xpac. A returns to talents means less content, less diverse builds, less scope for creativity, a really, really dull game.

Me, I didnt like borrowed power post legion, cause it felt like my character kept reverting and regressing. And all the borrowed power for the dh turned out to be the same.

When the dev's cant even bother making new powers... and keep recycling the old ones, ya would figure that that they shoulda baked it into the class by then. This is the issue I have with borrowed power, it is lazy recycled content with a fresh coat of paint.

How much do you want to bet with the new talent system, that the borrowed powered you used so much... will be baked into it?

[alturic]

Pretty much. Time and time again people have shown they will take the path of least resistance and just take what’s optimal instead of “experimenting”. And, just like before, people will require the “right” build for you to get into their groups.

I'm a bit confused. You are quoting "right" as if there isn't a right and wrong choice? If there's math involved, there is always a right and wrong choice.

Now, I can fully admit that outside of some odd scenarios that Blizzard didn't think of there is not a huge difference between the right and wrong choices for the majority of players to make a real difference but it doesn't take away the fact there will still always be a right and wrong choice.

And yes, back in the LK/Cata days, you better bet your ass I inspected PUGs to see if they had the optimal gems and talents. Why wouldn't you?

[Eurhetemec]

I would say it’s closer to what we have in Guild Wars 2 with build templates. With that system though, more often than not changing builds also requires a stat change on gear as well. Which would be a detriment in WoW if that is the case with gearing being much more difficult

I mean, there's just no way WoW is going to need you to re-gear like GW2, because they'd have to produce multiple different versions of each tier set with different stats, and/or bring back reforging but make it way more serious, neither of which is going to happen.

So it'll be like GW2 if you didn't have to change gear. In which case people would change spec pretty regularly.

[Theangryone]

Oh most definitely. Wow seems to want more streamlined gear and less variety stat wise. It is a shame we will not get reforging back.

[Bakis]

Regardless of the talent changes itself the big change is that they so far at least stated they will try to step away from useless borrowed power systems.
That is the big thing and a much needed, long requested change.

[Nymrohd]

The key difference with the proposed system is that you can change how you're spec'd inside instances and so on with saved setups, so there won't be one "right" build. The "right" build for one specific boss won't be the same as another.

I actually doubt they will let you respec inside M+. You'll still be able to switch per boss in raids but for M+ it will be one decision depending on Dungeon and Affixes.

[Kalisandra]

I saw those trees and immediately thought, "Oh no, button bloat incoming?". Granted, I was one of the weirdos who LIKED the "great prune" in Legion.

Thanks to Blizzard's love of mini-cooldown talents and on-use trinkets with CDs that don't match class cooldowns, there's plenty of button bloat already in SL (and in BfA too), most of it for not very interesting effects.

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People saying how the current talent rows are better which would be true if they hadn't been abandoned for 10 years... When was the last time those talent rows felt meaningful. MoP? WoD? Most of the time they were ignored in favour or expansion only systems...

Legion for several of my characters. The were several different Elemental builds, a couple of different Frost DK builds, and some decent choices in the Ret Pally talents (until they nerfed the choices away).

[Lathspell]

I actually doubt they will let you respec inside M+. You'll still be able to switch per boss in raids but for M+ it will be one decision depending on Dungeon and Affixes.

Yeah there is literally no way they will allow that when you can't even change gear in dungeons.

[Nymrohd]

Yeah there is literally no way they will allow that when you can't even change gear in dungeons.

It would completely change how we run dungeons. Let's be fair, not everyone swapped gear; it was a tactic mostly for people trying to push keys and was mostly there to deal with large empty stretches where you could not mount (speed sets) and certain bosses' damage abilities going crazy and requiring a defensive set, mostly for Tyrannical. If you could switch talents you would at the very least switch to an ST set for almost every boss on Tyrannical weeks (imo Tyrannical and Fortified should be removed entirely with maybe a weaker version of Tyrannical retained as a second tier affix)

So I doubt it will happen. We will see people picking specific talents that help them deal with affix mechanics or switch to stronger ST before they start the key though. And that will add a lot of planning and strategy already.

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Legion for several of my characters. The were several different Elemental builds, a couple of different Frost DK builds, and some decent choices in the Ret Pally talents (until they nerfed the choices away).

Legion did a great job at that, especially in 7.2 and after. The synergy different builds had with different legendaries (and different relic traits) let at least a few specs roll different builds. There were THREE different Elemental builds, all of them viable, all requiring different legendary combos.

[Gorsameth]

Regardless of the talent changes itself the big change is that they so far at least stated they will try to step away from useless borrowed power systems.
That is the big thing and a much needed, long requested change.

So what do we do after another 8 expansions of new abilities get added to bloat the system?

That is the problem 'borrowed power' tried to solve. How to give players new stuff every expansion without piling on more and more stuff until its to much.
I have yet to see any opponents of borrowed power make an attempt to solve this issue other then stick their fingers in their ear and pretend like its not a problem to begin with.

[Lolites]

How much do you want to bet with the new talent system, that the borrowed powered you used so much... will be baked into it?

didnt they literaly said so in the DF introduction videos? that some old powers from borrowed systems will be part of "new" talents?
and honestly, thats not a bad thing, quite the opposite, i think one of the worst things blizz do (and one of loudest complaint about borrowed powers) is that things get just tossed asside after some time, why would recycling things that worked be bad ffs?!

[Eurhetemec]

I actually doubt they will let you respec inside M+. You'll still be able to switch per boss in raids but for M+ it will be one decision depending on Dungeon and Affixes.

I'm pretty sure they specifically called out being able to change specs for bosses, but perhaps they were thinking of in a raid, so yeah, it may well be that M+ doesn't allow that. If so it'll certainly mean M+ has a lot narrower specs (as it'd be per-dungeon rather than per-boss).

[LedZeppelin]

They seem confusing, and I feel like I'll be stressed out by them, I've played Classic and have quit as the talents seem too extreme and such.
I prefer the WOD era talents as I started in Late MOP and boosted a fury warrior in warlords of Draenor, and I might miss the pick a talent, and boom, you read the thing and you pick a talent. That seems easy, but with this other system, I don't understand I'm not sure.

The talents are too extreme? whats confusing about +1% to hit lmao

[Eurhetemec]

So what do we do after another 8 expansions of new abilities get added to bloat the system?

That is the problem 'borrowed power' tried to solve. How to give players new stuff every expansion without piling on more and more stuff until its to much.

I have yet to see any opponents of borrowed power make an attempt to solve this issue other then stick their fingers in their ear and pretend like its not a problem to begin with.

I mean, this was discussed a lot even before "borrowed power" was a thing. I don't know if you started with WoW or played pre-WoW MMOs (10 years here, I'm guessing you maybe played ones before WoW?), but pre-WoW, a lot of games did have some kind of endgame advancement system that wasn't "borrowed power", that was permanent.

For example, EverQuest has the Alternate Advancement system (which I am not an expert on), which is a huge selection of abilities you can buy up with Alternate Advancement points, and Dark Age of Camelot has the Realm Ability system (which I am more familiar with), which was not dissimilar (as I understand it), where you have a large selection (based on your class) of Realm Abilities, which are a mixture of passive and active abilities, which you can buy up when you got your Realm Rank to a certainly level (In DAoC this is via RvR, except on Gaheris, where it is via PvE raids in the area used for RvR on other servers).

I think with Blizzard they're planning something different, I mean, it's impossible to say until we see it, but more along the lines of giving us a few more Spec Points each expansion, and adding more abilities to the spec tree.

Now here's the trick though: those abilities do not need to be at the end of the spec tree. You can add new abilities into the middle or even the bottom of the spec tree. But because you have to spec for them, it's unlikely to ever be optimal for you to just spec for the maximum number of active abilities, because thanks to the GCD, casting times and so on, you can only be doing so many active things at once. Most of your spec points are probably going to be spent on passive abilities, rather than active one, I would suspect.

You probably do want to add a bit to the end of the tree, but so long as you have alternative, passive ways to spend points, you don't get the same "MY HOTBAR IS FULL!!!!" effect that happens if you just keep piling new abilities on to a class. Because people will self-limit. There's no point spec'ing for abilities it'll be impractical to use.

Does that make sense? I kind of wonder if it needs a diagram to make sense.

EDIT - Also, just an addenda, one thing WoW and FFXIV have discovered which was not known back in the day was that you can do squishes and take stuff away and people won't riot, so if WoW somehow lasts another eight expansions (so, to 2038-ish - basically its entire lifespan so far again), which seems incredibly unlikely to me, but w/e, I'm sure they'll squish things again and prune the trees at some point (like the 5th expansion or w/e). Pretty sure Ion even mentioned this as a possibility.

[Mmid]

As a Warlock main, the different legendaries we play with this patch is the best «choices» we have had in the game for a long time. Much more than the talents. I really hope many of these legendaries end up as talents in Dragonflight.

[Nymrohd]

I'm pretty sure they specifically called out being able to change specs for bosses, but perhaps they were thinking of in a raid, so yeah, it may well be that M+ doesn't allow that. If so it'll certainly mean M+ has a lot narrower specs (as it'd be per-dungeon rather than per-boss).

Per Dungeon and Affix. People will likely run different specs for Tyrannical so they can increase ST. And as a tankadin I've always had to switch around a couple of utility talents depending on the other affixes as well; you don't always want Spellwarding or Consecrated Ground.

[Kalisandra]

Yes and no. What convenants, conduits and soulbinds have taught us is if one choice isn't superior to another by a lot and if it still kinda makes sense, then it'll be fine.

Even for Paladins, if choices like Divine Toll makes somewhat sense, some will still pick it over say Ashen. But as a negative example, for DKs, things like Abomination Limb is way overpowered. So they have to tune back some abilities but at some point in the bell curve, there are players who start to don't care about min-maxing and to us, flavour still trumps.

Not just flavour. Ease of use is also important for a lot of people - one reason Survival isn't popular is that the top build is very fiddly in play.

Heck, there are a lot of players copying the 'best' builds that should, given their level of skill, actually be choosing less fiddly builds with slightly lower theoretical throughput and if they did so they'd get better results (and probably enjoy themselves more).

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My skepticism is about the cost in dev time. This looks like the biggest balance and design project in the new expansion. Why is it necessary?

The new talents may end up being a perfectly fine system in their own right, but what was wrong with the old system that justifies spending this time on a rework? Getting this means we don't get something else that they could do instead. As far as I can tell the current system wasn't causing any complaints, so the unnecessary rework could end up being project mismanagement.

Because it replaces the current talents system (which needs a lot of work on the talents anyway because a ton of specs have heaps of dead talents), and it replaces all the borrowed power systems. As over the past three expansions a lot of dev time during the expansion has gone on tweaking borrowed power systems and making up new ones (there was a new one in Legion for Argus, and two new ones in BfA, one each for the last two raid tiers). All that time and energy can be spent on just the one system now. Maybe we'll be actual fixes to busted character design during expansions again, rather than just blanket DPS bumps up and down.

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I actually liked borrowed power. The criticism of it seemed to be just people repeating the words of 2-3 streamers. I don't think they really thought about it.

Borrowed power meant we got interesting new abilities every xpac. A returns to talents means less content, less diverse builds, less scope for creativity, a really, really dull game.

I hate it in its current form. It was fine in Legion, until Argus (where we got another system of it layered on). But back then we thought that, as with tier set bonuses, we'd generally get to keep most of it in some way - that it wasn't 'borrowed' so much as the normal level, talent, and gear advancement all bundled into the weapon and that by some mechanism (and associated story arc) we'd absorb some of it. Instead what powers we did get to keep we pushed into the talent tree, often at the expense of other talents (to be fair, many of those were junk talents, but not all). In BfA and SL it was clear that borrowed power was just that, meaning that the underlying characters are not really seeing any growth and, as with D&D and other traditional tabletop RPGs (from which MMORPGs descend), players generally expect their characters to grow personally and not only through their gear.

Now, if borrowed power had been implemented such that characters still meaningfully grew underneath it, and were reasonably complete without it (something SL does do a bit better than BfA), it wouldn't feel so bad. As it stands, when all the conduits, etc., are turned off it's going to feel like when you walk out of Torghast after a good run and go and do world quests - you go from god-like to complete suck.