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  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    but having to pad them out with our base spells and filler talents so that we can only get back to the state we are in now makes it feel disingenious.
    Did people actually think the trees were not going to work that way? i.e. Your max level toon would be the same as now and then the talent tree would dump a bunch of spell options/talent options on top of that kit. Why would anyone think that?

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    I'm not sure how they're 'watered down' compared to classic talents, which tended to hand out +1 or +2% bonuses per level, or require five point investments to actually have a talent working fully. This version tends to be much stronger, though it would be nice if all the +X talents were changed to 'does something more than the baseline' or even just (in the case of hots/dots) longer durations - stuff that changes gameplay in a way that slightly bigger numbers don't.

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    They're including a talent build save function, so you'll be able to simply load in the build for that fight if that's how you roll.
    I hope so... I really don't want to be snappin' pics of crap to remember or something.

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by ChairmanKaga View Post
    Did people actually think the trees were not going to work that way? i.e. Your max level toon would be the same as now and then the talent tree would dump a bunch of spell options/talent options on top of that kit. Why would anyone think that?
    Because the game used to progress. You used to get stronger as you leveled and have more options. Then borrowed power became the thing for the past 3 expacs and people left the game.

    Ion said no more borrowed power and we are going to make talent trees and add to them.

    We are going from 60-70 to end up in the same state we are in right now. That isn't progress. That is effectively borrowed power again for another expansion. The talent trees give them the option of expanding from there, but as they are now, they ARE NOT ANYTHING DIFFEERNT THAN THE BORROWED POWER SYSTEMS WE DID NOT LIKE.

    Your Druid will lose power in the prepatch and have to regain it leveling from 60-70 and end up exactly back where he was. That is the borrowed power system.

    Ion said they were going away from that, yet here it is, on full display, no change. You will not be any stronger with any more options at 70 than you were at 60.


    Another filler expansion, expect the playerbase to dip well below the 1 million it apparently floats around nowadays.

  4. #404
    Perhaps one role classes such as rogues will love this system but hybrids such as druids are severely screwed over.

    Resto druids have to burn all 31 general talent points getting the healer/caster related general talents.
    There is absolutely no room for any kind of "creativity" or improvisation since blizzard made general talents very relevant to resto role performance.

    Some of the feral or guardian general talents may look potentially useful but there is nowhere near enough points to put them in a build when all 31 points are already dedicated to very important role performance talents.
    Another problem is there is so much clutter in the general talent tree that to reach a talent on the other side of the tree you have to give up on ~7 useful talents and take 6 potentially useless talents just to reach that 1 "creative use" talent on the other side of the general talent tree.

    Perhaps if you are boosting your lvl 10 friends in the wailing caverns you can toy around with the gimmick talent builds but for any kind of difficult content there is no room for creativity in the druid general talents (healer pov).
    Last edited by Aleksej89; 2022-06-05 at 11:06 PM.

  5. #405
    Alek, you do point out something I'll be curious about..... non-hybrids will likely find it easier to branch out and take things that aren't as limiting.

    I'll be curious to see what they do with Rogues/Mages/Warlocks/Hunters. Those classes may get alot more out of this type of tree than others.

    Also Demon Hunters and Evokers..... Will their trees be really small or will it be super easy for a 2 spec class to take everything they need and get some of the other spec? For Demon Huntes especially, its not like they have very many base spells to move to the trees.... they can't even fill 2 bars as it is.

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    Perhaps one role classes such as rogues will love this system but hybrids such as druids are severely screwed over.

    Resto druids have to burn all 31 general talent points getting the healer/caster related general talents.
    There is absolutely no room for any kind of "creativity" or improvisation since blizzard made general talents very relevant to resto role performance.

    Some of the feral or guardian general talents may look potentially useful but there is nowhere near enough points to put them in a build when all 31 points are already dedicated to very important role performance talents.
    Another problem is there is so much clutter in the general talent tree that to reach a talent on the other side of the tree you have to give up on ~7 useful talents and take 6 potentially useless talents just to reach that 1 "creative use" talent on the other side of the general talent tree.

    Perhaps if you are boosting your lvl 10 friends in the wailing caverns you can toy around with the gimmick talent builds but for any kind of difficult content there is no room for creativity in the druid general talents (healer pov).
    are you counting hotw/imp SR and renewal as core caster/healer abilities? cause running through the tree i keep finding pts to spend in things like imp sunfire, astral influence or if you dont want those 2 you can even get all the resto stuff while grabbing skull bash



    that even has 4 pts left over for playing around and you get skull bash so im really confused by your post as a resto druid. Obviously you could drop the interrupt and get base movespeed which would also be nice, or spend more pts at the bottom for hotw to dps more along with more moonkin baseline things like aoe sunfire. Feels like a lot of options to me

  7. #407
    Unpopular opinion: DF talent trees have little to nothing in common with "old talent trees" and should not be called such as they have much more in common with current (MoP+) talents style mixed with borrowed powers, presented with little graphical spin.

    Problem with old talent trees was that if you substracted all the mandatory talent's as well as "useless" one you were left (both of these were never in question really) with very little choice, but these were really usually the best ones, situational, minor tweaks that gave you little bit of this or that, nothing game/spec breaking. And yeah I miss not having to worry about my spec (whether or not it can perform in AOE, burst phases etc) all that much or having to re arrange my abilities every new boss fight or arena match.

    So far from what i have seen (not even sure if thats official placeholders) for druid and dk, i gotta say I am not impressed. Having to choose between "core" things I used to have for years, feels and is indeed "impactful" but also not something I feel good about choosing.
    I think classes/spec should be perfectly playable and "ready" baseline but there should be ideally many many small tweaks we can pick or skip.
    I likes when each spec/class have had its own characteristics like this one was great for aoe, that one for burst damage but kinda lacked in sustain etc, with "current" talent style you can get that... if you pick up the "right" talents, for given task/bossfight/arenamatch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    They're including a talent build save function, so you'll be able to simply load in the build for that fight if that's how you roll.
    Ohhh that sure does sound fun, JK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorothyjean View Post
    I hope so... I really don't want to be snappin' pics of crap to remember or something.
    luckyly it will still greatly work against your muscle memory so... goota deal with that!

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by FAILoZOFF View Post
    Unpopular opinion: DF talent trees have little to nothing in common with "old talent trees" and should not be called such as they have much more in common with current (MoP+) talents style mixed with borrowed powers, presented with little graphical spin.
    Nobody cares about why something is called a certain way. Blizzard calls it talents so thats what we call them.

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    Ohhh that sure does sound fun, JK.
    It's a utility feature. It's not ment to be fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2
    People who don't buy the deluxe edition should be permanently banned. I'm sick of playing with poor people.

  9. #409
    Good thing that the old talents aren't coming back then, 'uh?

  10. #410
    I'm just happy they're going for a comprehensive approach again, rather than spreading this stuff over four parallel systems like in SL (soulbinds, legendaries, conduits, normal talents... might be forgetting something).

    If they make a system to add to it, it should at least be conceptually different in a clear way, if they can't do that then jamming it all into a single talent tree is the best they can do.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
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    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    i really dislike the new system, it seems to do everything wrong.

    they disassembled the already over-pruned SLands classes and put the abilities onto talent trees, then gave us nowhere near enough points to actually make an interesting class.

    As it stands right now there should be either a lot more "general talent" points or there should be a lot less filler on the general talent trees.
    By the time we spend the general talent points to stitch the class back together into a competitive form we got no leftover points for anything fun.
    exactly, this is just same sht all over again with illusion of "choice"

  12. #412
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    This is supposed to be a redo of the current system so of course many of our current abilities are going to be in the new tree.
    Not necessarily. They could have granted those abilities as baseline and made new ones. I guess this is how they deal with ability bloat simple not make new abilities. Actually its worse than that... are you fucking telling me I have to pick tranquility now.. kinda garbage... Its pretty evident the game has had its budget cut...
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #413
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    Red face

    FAILoZOFF
    Unpopular opinion:
    Actually, this is not an unpopular opinion at all, furthermore this is how things really are

    How it supposed to be:
    - everything, that goes under base spellkit, is for talents/items-sets -

    and don't forget this part (no stat scaling with spec):
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    put on strength and avoidance - bear abilities work better; agility and attack power with accuracy - better as cat and so on

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    Asrialol
    I'm confused, I was expecting some sort of documentation here but instead it's links to your own opinions/previous posts?
    Theoretically, it would be possible to compile statistics on user opinions on information platforms, but even if we approximate only from popular resources (official forum and a couple of Internet sites/more active&discussing users), then on each of them, at least in each of discussions, where a conclusion is made about "similarity of tree", there're indications of dubiousness thereof. This is quite enough to argue that opinion mentioned by poster in quote isn't "unpopular". imo, I don’t sin with logic (I’m not talking about popularity in my links, but explain/try to justify my wording, and they redirect from exactly this part of my sentence)
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2022-07-05 at 07:54 AM.
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  14. #414
    I am Murloc! Asrialol's Avatar
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    I'm not a fan of removing spells and talents, turning them into "new talents" and pretending it's diverse and a "choice".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Actually, this is not an unpopular opinion at all, furthermore this is how things really are
    I'm confused, I was expecting some sort of documentation here but instead it's links to your own opinions / previous posts?
    Hi

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    they disassembled the already over-pruned SLands classes and put the abilities onto talent trees, then gave us nowhere near enough points to actually make an interesting class.
    this, i main frost dk with m+ obliteration build, and with the tree as it stands now its impossible to build spec i play right now...
    it should bring more diversity, not push people even more into the "best" spec - in case of frost DK for m+ so far it seems to be breath or bust AGAIN

  16. #416
    My main gripes with the new (old) talent system are:

    A) Upon now seeing the Druid, DK and Priest trees it seems they've just taken the spellbook and dumped it in the class tree. Tons of things that are, should be, and pretty much always have been baseline, are now put in the tree where they compete against things that are simply much stronger. In the past it was not really possible (or the min/max mentality wasn't there) to change talents all the time, but now you simply won't have unique niche things that are fun and good for the game, simply because they are not stronger than other things (which are perhaps passive or just very boring in comparison - but again, much stronger). Essentially, we're being pruned of things that should be baseline/unavoidable autopicks.

    B) Given the possibility to min/max your talents, changing them in the starting area of each arena, bg or before each dungeon/raid/raid boss you'll practically be forced to change up to ~1/3rd of your character all the time. I'm sorry, but I'm having enough keybinding issues and not really having a solid base as is. I wanted to play Feral Druid, not Feral Druid with xyzklmnop talents one fight, qwertyasdzxch talents the other fight, dzxdwqeads talents in a third fight etc., with half my UI changing every time.

    C) The way the trees are structured, compared to the old pre-MoP talent trees, it seems that they're much more free. You can go one path, completely forgoing something else, so there's no stable base of "no matter how you spec, you'll have these things - then you can do minor modifications", which is how the old pre-MoP talent trees were designed. With these new trees the freedom, and thus lack of base, is much much larger (all you have to do is compare the old trees to the new ones to see it). Essentially, the design is becoming evermore fragmented.
    Last edited by RelaZ; 2022-07-04 at 11:25 AM.

  17. #417
    The Patient MCitra's Avatar
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    Tbh i love the old talents, they where the most fun we have had


    I do not like the new comming. they are to messy to many base are into talenstree and not much is new at all.
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  18. #418
    Legendary! Makabreska's Avatar
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    The one thing that started to bother me is the ability bloat. Depending on spec, you can grab so many active abilities now.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by LuxTheGamer View Post
    They seem confusing, and I feel like I'll be stressed out by them, I've played Classic and have quit as the talents seem too extreme and such.
    I prefer the WOD era talents as I started in Late MOP and boosted a fury warrior in warlords of Draenor, and I might miss the pick a talent, and boom, you read the thing and you pick a talent. That seems easy, but with this other system, I don't understand I'm not sure.
    I will never understand people who think everything has to be child proof'd for them because the concept of thinking about things makes them stressed, if this stresses you I ENVY your life.

  20. #420
    "Tree" systems are an archaic and cumbersome chore to manage, and are never fun to tinker around in any way.

    I wish they would advance tech and systems in new gameplay-enhancing ways instead of going back to buried and rotten systems ("dailies are BACK baby! world quests 2.0!") just to be "safe" and because it's the hip thing to do to cater to nostalgia "everything was the best in its first iteration" extremists.

    Everything is scattered, messy and unintuitive and changing just one thing means shuffling so much stuff around...

    Yeah, this looks like the "bad system" of the expansion. Repeating past mistakes just to have to fix them later on... again.
    Once upon a time... the end. Next time, try twice upon a time.

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