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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    My biggest fear is that Blizz will pull a BfA, where they strip down the classes of their abilities/passives in order to make room for the new system. I wouldn't be surprised that the new talent trees will be filled with abilities and passives that are currently innate with your classes/specs, so without the talents you base class will be weak and/or not feel good. If not done correctly, you could actually feel like you have a weaker character after the talent tree implementation, as there's no guarantee that you'll keep everything you have now.
    That is what Legion did, not BfA. What you felt at beginning of BfA was removal of all that shit legion put on items.
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  2. #162
    To me it looked like more of a skill tree with talents baked in. It looked like the actual spells were learned like that.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Playintrafic View Post
    What legion changes?

    Talents have been largely the same since MoP. WoD added a new row. Legion added nothing, changed nothing, save for some talents themselves. But it didnt change the system.

    If you meant artifact weapons, that wasnt really a talent tree. it was a "get all the things after grinding" system.
    Look at the MoP talents vs the Legion talents. In MoP, the tree was the same throughout the spec, in Legion, each spec had a unique tree.

  4. #164
    Over 9000! Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pahbi View Post
    Wow has 12 classes, each class has 3 talent trees except druid which has 4 and demon hunter that only has 2. That might as well be 36 different classes.

    And the dev team is going to come up with 36 different talent trees?

    You realize this is Blizz we're talking about here right? Blizz is still trying to balance the talent trees they pruned years and years ago.

    I am missing something?

    Is each class just going to have 1 massive talent tree? Instead of 3 different specs?

    I just don't trust Blizz to be figure that out.
    Each class will have one class talent tree and each spec will have their own spec tree.

    So that's 13 class talent trees and 38 spec trees.

  5. #165
    I really like the new talent trees and hope we get a 2 month pre patch to have enough time for the set up. It seems there are many different ways to set the points in the talent trees, will be very interesting.

  6. #166
    I am Murloc! Motorman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuxTheGamer View Post
    They seem confusing, and I feel like I'll be stressed out by them, I've played Classic and have quit as the talents seem too extreme and such.
    I prefer the WOD era talents as I started in Late MOP and boosted a fury warrior in warlords of Draenor, and I might miss the pick a talent, and boom, you read the thing and you pick a talent. That seems easy, but with this other system, I don't understand I'm not sure.
    How was classic talents extreme most of them were filler talents to reach the end goal talent and most of the time it was irrelevant what path you chose.

    The extreme part was having to pay increasing amounts of gold to respec but other than that you could find ready made builts that showed you optimal paths etc.

    When in doubt always check the classic websites that give guidance.

  7. #167
    The only positive thing is that you get to allocate a point per level.
    The rest will just be like current talents and how like talents were back in the day.

    You have your cookie cutter builds and change a few talents here and there based on situation. Conduits is basically a talent tree so that's also included in the talent swapping based on situation.

    It's mostly just presentation that will change. Though I am looking forward to it because I like change, keeps things fresh even if it's similar in technicalities.

  8. #168
    It will be better for new players. The feeling of progression,even if little, each levels is important

    Experienced/max lvl players will just put points to regain abilities/passives they had baseline for years. Worthless.

  9. #169
    The Patient Berkilak's Avatar
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    I wouldn't say that I'm excited for talents trees.

    What excites me is that I won't have to relearn the entire power progression system every expansion, every patch. And that this effort can be expended elsewhere in design.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by pahbi View Post
    Wow has 12 classes, each class has 3 talent trees except druid which has 4 and demon hunter that only has 2. That might as well be 36 different classes.

    And the dev team is going to come up with 36 different talent trees?

    You realize this is Blizz we're talking about here right? Blizz is still trying to balance the talent trees they pruned years and years ago.

    I am missing something?

    Is each class just going to have 1 massive talent tree? Instead of 3 different specs?

    I just don't trust Blizz to be figure that out.
    13 base class +38 spec as another poster pointed out but honestly, I do trust Blizzard to do a reasonable job here.

    They've likely been working on the specifics of this system since before SL released - we know they've been working on DF since then, and this is likely to be one of the more time-consuming parts of development in terms of how much it's likely to require iteration.

    And we all love to rag on Blizzard when their balance isn't perfect, but part of the problem is that they self-limited on how many balance levers they could pull by adopting the tier-based talent system, and constantly make their lives harder by introducing weird borrowed power systems which screw everything up. In the short term, this will require a lot of balancing, but because they're losing borrowed power, in the longer-term, this is likely to stabilize better than other approaches. WoW's balance isn't perfect but it is one of the better-balanced MMOs out there. FFXIV is better but only because it has no spec'ing at all, no choices at all about abilities. I'm pretty sure if you suggested that to most WoW players they'd actually explode, Scanners-style.

    It also puts more power in the hands of the player, for better or worse. You cannot expect perfect balance if you give people decent freedom to spec how they please. No-one in any game has ever achieved anything like that. But they can make it so you can shape your way of playing a lot more, and they can probably get it so that, unless you're at the cutting edge of content, you're able get solid/decent performance out. And as you can change spec freely and have multiple specs saved, it's going to be a bit more on us to choose the "right" spec. Which may be annoying as hell, or fun as hell, we shall see.
    Last edited by Eurhetemec; 2022-05-02 at 01:59 PM.
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  11. #171
    People bothering about talent trees are the same that copy paste talents/conduits/legendary from icy veins without even thinking.

  12. #172
    A part of me is looking forward to seeing how they do the talent tree. Another part of me is worrying whether these trees are going to be badly built, and if we go back to the stupid old talents we had that were just filler.

    I don't want to see "Gain 1% crit" or "Crusader Strike does +5% damage." However, they did say they were going to be making azerite traits/legiondary effects/etc into the talent tree. So they might be cool. A talent that makes Divine Storm travel again would be nice.

    What I would like to see are talents that affect spells not by raw numbers, but modification/augmentation. Something like "Templar's Verdict reduces the remaining cooldown of Avenging Wrath by 2 seconds", or "Enemies affected by Judgement cannot stealth", things like that.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyviroth View Post
    A part of me is looking forward to seeing how they do the talent tree. Another part of me is worrying whether these trees are going to be badly built, and if we go back to the stupid old talents we had that were just filler.

    I don't want to see "Gain 1% crit" or "Crusader Strike does +5% damage." However, they did say they were going to be making azerite traits/legiondary effects/etc into the talent tree. So they might be cool. A talent that makes Divine Storm travel again would be nice.

    What I would like to see are talents that affect spells not by raw numbers, but modification/augmentation. Something like "Templar's Verdict reduces the remaining cooldown of Avenging Wrath by 2 seconds", or "Enemies affected by Judgement cannot stealth", things like that.
    Thing is, we get 51 points right?

    There's no way to make 51 different talents and noone of them being either multi-point, which increases % or maybe nr of targets(?), or stat points...

    That's why we got the current talent system, to remove the unnecessary bloat and filler talents and only choose between gameplay ones.
    We gonna get some "boring" stat points because that's the nature of having so many points.

    Can't think of one game that does have so many points without them having boring fillers at times.

  14. #174
    Herald of the Titans MrKnubbles's Avatar
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    They're going to move a lot of abilities and passive that you're already using into the talent trees. Just pick what you already use and you'll be fine. There will be cookie cutter builds. It's not going to offer as much freedom and choice as they suggest.
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  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Thing is, we get 51 points right?

    There's no way to make 51 different talents and noone of them being either multi-point, which increases % or maybe nr of targets(?), or stat points...

    That's why we got the current talent system, to remove the unnecessary bloat and filler talents and only choose between gameplay ones.
    We gonna get some "boring" stat points because that's the nature of having so many points.

    Can't think of one game that does have so many points without them having boring fillers at times.
    As far as I know, we'll technically have more than 51 points because a few of the class-tree stuff will be filled out for you to get us started, as explained in the announcement vid during their talent tree deep dive. So it'll probably be like "4 points auto spent, plus 51." Or something like that.

    But yeah, this is what I worry about. There are multiple-point talents, but I find myself sitting here wondering if it'll be talents of old or if they will find something more interesting. Spitballing here off the top of my head, but something like "Crusader Strike hits 1/2/3 additional targets, but deals 5%/10%/15% less damage." I know it sounds stupid, but my train of thought (for what little thought was actually put into this) is:

    -- It's something that augments the ability, but, in this instance, with a trade-off. Not necessary but gives the player something to think about.
    -- Something that isn't obvious to take, but can benefit in a certain situation. In this case, changing a ST ability into a cleave/AoE one at a cost.
    -- Because of the trade-off, it will lead to players making a "meaningful choice" to build something more focused on AoE over ST for council bosses/outdoor content/M+ without worry of being locked into it for a long while, giving more credence to Dragonflight's new talent loadouts system.

    Something like this would be like, "Well I don't want this as part of a ST build or for PvP, but I'll take it when I do outdoor content/old raid farming/M+ where it'll benefit the most." I guess the cruz of the concern is, "are these multiple-point talents going to be mandatory, or can we find a way to have them be situational so that they're not just mandatory picks."

  16. #176
    It is weird to see Blizzard making changes to the game which make it less accessible but I'm curious to see how it'll pan out. The idea of allowing specs to have access to talents which they traditionally have not had access to is one that intrigues me quite a bit but also one I could see going pretty poorly if they fail to balance accordingly.

  17. #177
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  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by MrKnubbles View Post
    They're going to move a lot of abilities and passive that you're already using into the talent trees. Just pick what you already use and you'll be fine. There will be cookie cutter builds. It's not going to offer as much freedom and choice as they suggest.
    I'd generally agree with you here but the devs did say they were aware of this and were designing the system around it. Some talents will of course remain mandatory but it offers a possible layer of flexibility which the game hasn't had in eons.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Thing is, we get 51 points right?

    There's no way to make 51 different talents and noone of them being either multi-point, which increases % or maybe nr of targets(?), or stat points...

    That's why we got the current talent system, to remove the unnecessary bloat and filler talents and only choose between gameplay ones.
    We gonna get some "boring" stat points because that's the nature of having so many points.

    Can't think of one game that does have so many points without them having boring fillers at times.
    IMO a lot of the times those ‘boring fillers’ is what creates actual unique specs though. If we have a system similar to what we have now its literally just “pick the best spell out of the three”, and there will ALWAYS be a best one depending on the scenario.

    This at least adds some sort of flavor. Sure there will probably be a guide or a spec most people attempt to follow, but at least there will be more wiggle room for customization.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I'd generally agree with you here but the devs did say they were aware of this and were designing the system around it. Some talents will of course remain mandatory but it offers a possible layer of flexibility which the game hasn't had in eons.
    I legit can’t think of the last time I got into a new expansion and looked at builds, and didn’t instantly see the best build within the first 10 mins and used it all expansion, or until one of the abilities got nerfed.
    Last edited by Temporaldrift; 2022-05-02 at 02:48 PM.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Temporaldrift View Post
    I legit can’t think of the last time I got into a new expansion and looked at builds, and instantly saw the best build within the first 10 mins and used it all expansion, or until one of the abilities got nerfed.
    There are a few specs which are pretty rigid (mostly tanks). There is flexibility in the current system but the proposed version offers the current flexibility plus the potential of adding new things we haven't had access to in the past. It's a net improvement though it comes at the cost of simplicity.

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