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  1. #161
    The only positive thing is that you get to allocate a point per level.
    The rest will just be like current talents and how like talents were back in the day.

    You have your cookie cutter builds and change a few talents here and there based on situation. Conduits is basically a talent tree so that's also included in the talent swapping based on situation.

    It's mostly just presentation that will change. Though I am looking forward to it because I like change, keeps things fresh even if it's similar in technicalities.
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  2. #162
    It will be better for new players. The feeling of progression,even if little, each levels is important

    Experienced/max lvl players will just put points to regain abilities/passives they had baseline for years. Worthless.

  3. #163
    Dreadlord Berkilak's Avatar
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    I wouldn't say that I'm excited for talents trees.

    What excites me is that I won't have to relearn the entire power progression system every expansion, every patch. And that this effort can be expended elsewhere in design.

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by pahbi View Post
    Wow has 12 classes, each class has 3 talent trees except druid which has 4 and demon hunter that only has 2. That might as well be 36 different classes.

    And the dev team is going to come up with 36 different talent trees?

    You realize this is Blizz we're talking about here right? Blizz is still trying to balance the talent trees they pruned years and years ago.

    I am missing something?

    Is each class just going to have 1 massive talent tree? Instead of 3 different specs?

    I just don't trust Blizz to be figure that out.
    13 base class +38 spec as another poster pointed out but honestly, I do trust Blizzard to do a reasonable job here.

    They've likely been working on the specifics of this system since before SL released - we know they've been working on DF since then, and this is likely to be one of the more time-consuming parts of development in terms of how much it's likely to require iteration.

    And we all love to rag on Blizzard when their balance isn't perfect, but part of the problem is that they self-limited on how many balance levers they could pull by adopting the tier-based talent system, and constantly make their lives harder by introducing weird borrowed power systems which screw everything up. In the short term, this will require a lot of balancing, but because they're losing borrowed power, in the longer-term, this is likely to stabilize better than other approaches. WoW's balance isn't perfect but it is one of the better-balanced MMOs out there. FFXIV is better but only because it has no spec'ing at all, no choices at all about abilities. I'm pretty sure if you suggested that to most WoW players they'd actually explode, Scanners-style.

    It also puts more power in the hands of the player, for better or worse. You cannot expect perfect balance if you give people decent freedom to spec how they please. No-one in any game has ever achieved anything like that. But they can make it so you can shape your way of playing a lot more, and they can probably get it so that, unless you're at the cutting edge of content, you're able get solid/decent performance out. And as you can change spec freely and have multiple specs saved, it's going to be a bit more on us to choose the "right" spec. Which may be annoying as hell, or fun as hell, we shall see.
    Last edited by Eurhetemec; 2022-05-02 at 01:59 PM.
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  5. #165
    People bothering about talent trees are the same that copy paste talents/conduits/legendary from icy veins without even thinking.

  6. #166
    A part of me is looking forward to seeing how they do the talent tree. Another part of me is worrying whether these trees are going to be badly built, and if we go back to the stupid old talents we had that were just filler.

    I don't want to see "Gain 1% crit" or "Crusader Strike does +5% damage." However, they did say they were going to be making azerite traits/legiondary effects/etc into the talent tree. So they might be cool. A talent that makes Divine Storm travel again would be nice.

    What I would like to see are talents that affect spells not by raw numbers, but modification/augmentation. Something like "Templar's Verdict reduces the remaining cooldown of Avenging Wrath by 2 seconds", or "Enemies affected by Judgement cannot stealth", things like that.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyviroth View Post
    A part of me is looking forward to seeing how they do the talent tree. Another part of me is worrying whether these trees are going to be badly built, and if we go back to the stupid old talents we had that were just filler.

    I don't want to see "Gain 1% crit" or "Crusader Strike does +5% damage." However, they did say they were going to be making azerite traits/legiondary effects/etc into the talent tree. So they might be cool. A talent that makes Divine Storm travel again would be nice.

    What I would like to see are talents that affect spells not by raw numbers, but modification/augmentation. Something like "Templar's Verdict reduces the remaining cooldown of Avenging Wrath by 2 seconds", or "Enemies affected by Judgement cannot stealth", things like that.
    Thing is, we get 51 points right?

    There's no way to make 51 different talents and noone of them being either multi-point, which increases % or maybe nr of targets(?), or stat points...

    That's why we got the current talent system, to remove the unnecessary bloat and filler talents and only choose between gameplay ones.
    We gonna get some "boring" stat points because that's the nature of having so many points.

    Can't think of one game that does have so many points without them having boring fillers at times.
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  8. #168
    Herald of the Titans MrKnubbles's Avatar
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    They're going to move a lot of abilities and passive that you're already using into the talent trees. Just pick what you already use and you'll be fine. There will be cookie cutter builds. It's not going to offer as much freedom and choice as they suggest.
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  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Thing is, we get 51 points right?

    There's no way to make 51 different talents and noone of them being either multi-point, which increases % or maybe nr of targets(?), or stat points...

    That's why we got the current talent system, to remove the unnecessary bloat and filler talents and only choose between gameplay ones.
    We gonna get some "boring" stat points because that's the nature of having so many points.

    Can't think of one game that does have so many points without them having boring fillers at times.
    As far as I know, we'll technically have more than 51 points because a few of the class-tree stuff will be filled out for you to get us started, as explained in the announcement vid during their talent tree deep dive. So it'll probably be like "4 points auto spent, plus 51." Or something like that.

    But yeah, this is what I worry about. There are multiple-point talents, but I find myself sitting here wondering if it'll be talents of old or if they will find something more interesting. Spitballing here off the top of my head, but something like "Crusader Strike hits 1/2/3 additional targets, but deals 5%/10%/15% less damage." I know it sounds stupid, but my train of thought (for what little thought was actually put into this) is:

    -- It's something that augments the ability, but, in this instance, with a trade-off. Not necessary but gives the player something to think about.
    -- Something that isn't obvious to take, but can benefit in a certain situation. In this case, changing a ST ability into a cleave/AoE one at a cost.
    -- Because of the trade-off, it will lead to players making a "meaningful choice" to build something more focused on AoE over ST for council bosses/outdoor content/M+ without worry of being locked into it for a long while, giving more credence to Dragonflight's new talent loadouts system.

    Something like this would be like, "Well I don't want this as part of a ST build or for PvP, but I'll take it when I do outdoor content/old raid farming/M+ where it'll benefit the most." I guess the cruz of the concern is, "are these multiple-point talents going to be mandatory, or can we find a way to have them be situational so that they're not just mandatory picks."

  10. #170
    It is weird to see Blizzard making changes to the game which make it less accessible but I'm curious to see how it'll pan out. The idea of allowing specs to have access to talents which they traditionally have not had access to is one that intrigues me quite a bit but also one I could see going pretty poorly if they fail to balance accordingly.

  11. #171
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  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by MrKnubbles View Post
    They're going to move a lot of abilities and passive that you're already using into the talent trees. Just pick what you already use and you'll be fine. There will be cookie cutter builds. It's not going to offer as much freedom and choice as they suggest.
    I'd generally agree with you here but the devs did say they were aware of this and were designing the system around it. Some talents will of course remain mandatory but it offers a possible layer of flexibility which the game hasn't had in eons.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Thing is, we get 51 points right?

    There's no way to make 51 different talents and noone of them being either multi-point, which increases % or maybe nr of targets(?), or stat points...

    That's why we got the current talent system, to remove the unnecessary bloat and filler talents and only choose between gameplay ones.
    We gonna get some "boring" stat points because that's the nature of having so many points.

    Can't think of one game that does have so many points without them having boring fillers at times.
    IMO a lot of the times those ‘boring fillers’ is what creates actual unique specs though. If we have a system similar to what we have now its literally just “pick the best spell out of the three”, and there will ALWAYS be a best one depending on the scenario.

    This at least adds some sort of flavor. Sure there will probably be a guide or a spec most people attempt to follow, but at least there will be more wiggle room for customization.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I'd generally agree with you here but the devs did say they were aware of this and were designing the system around it. Some talents will of course remain mandatory but it offers a possible layer of flexibility which the game hasn't had in eons.
    I legit can’t think of the last time I got into a new expansion and looked at builds, and didn’t instantly see the best build within the first 10 mins and used it all expansion, or until one of the abilities got nerfed.
    Last edited by Temporaldrift; 2022-05-02 at 02:48 PM.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Temporaldrift View Post
    I legit can’t think of the last time I got into a new expansion and looked at builds, and instantly saw the best build within the first 10 mins and used it all expansion, or until one of the abilities got nerfed.
    There are a few specs which are pretty rigid (mostly tanks). There is flexibility in the current system but the proposed version offers the current flexibility plus the potential of adding new things we haven't had access to in the past. It's a net improvement though it comes at the cost of simplicity.

  15. #175
    Does it even matter? Lots of people find a guide that tells what talents to pick no matter what Blizzard does. Someone out there will crunch the numbers and see whats best.

    What this change of talent systems do provide though is a more open-mindend approach to how you want to play the game, if implemented good. You can differenciate your playstyle if you want, try out new stuff etc.

    The talent system as it is now is rather tedious and boring. Might be for many with the new(old) system too, but atleast we have the option to have fun with it in a broader way.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphin View Post
    I think one of the advantages of the new talent system is, that it looks like it can be expanded in different directions, both horicontally like we knew it but also vertically, which could prevent overbload like with the purely vertical talent trees from the past, especially in terms of abilities added, as they just can introduce more options for existing nods instead of new nods if they feel like a class could get overbloated.

    And I think having a permanent player power system in the form of talents will end up being ultimately very healthy for the game, because its just easier to tweak certain talents and work each expansion on how to expand the talent trees instead of always coming up with a new power system. One of the issues with borrowed power was, that the devs often had to spend most of any expansion fixing the flaws of the current system and then abandoning it once it had become well build up and positively received. We saw that with Legion, in BFA and also in Shadowlands. Covenants are actually fun now that they are easy to catch up, can be switched on the fly, we have a good conduit catch up and are always wearing the covenant legendary.
    also makes it leaps and bounds easier to sim one system vs 3 compounded by each other lol idk what blizz was thinking since BFA, they made their lives miserable in balancing

  17. #177
    Dreadlord Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Does it even matter? Lots of people find a guide that tells what talents to pick no matter what Blizzard does. Someone out there will crunch the numbers and see whats best.

    What this change of talent systems do provide though is a more open-mindend approach to how you want to play the game, if implemented good. You can differenciate your playstyle if you want, try out new stuff etc.

    The talent system as it is now is rather tedious and boring. Might be for many with the new(old) system too, but atleast we have the option to have fun with it in a broader way.
    I just hope that the variance between the builds can be made up for based on personal playstyle. Like if that Lava Lash build does 5% more damage than the Stormstrike build, my poor execution of the Lava Lash might mean that I'm still better with the Stormstrike build regardless. I think this is where the flexibility shines.

    With the current layered systems, one particular build could be 60% more effective - even if you're trash at it, it's still going to be the higher output option. That is why Icy Veins is king.

  18. #178
    Herald of the Titans MrKnubbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I'd generally agree with you here but the devs did say they were aware of this and were designing the system around it. Some talents will of course remain mandatory but it offers a possible layer of flexibility which the game hasn't had in eons.
    The only way I can see them accomplish that is if there's a good single target ability on one side of the tree and a good aoe ability on the opposite side of the tree. That would force you to do different build routes for aoe vs single target. You'll probably always want the aoe for M+ and single target for raid. So, unless we can freely change talents out of combat (highly unlikely) then I don't see this system offering much versatility.

    I imagine it to be like soulbinds and conduits. I don't know about you, but I never change those. I know friends that do, but I see the changes to be so minor that I don't even care.
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  19. #179
    Dreadlord Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKnubbles View Post
    The only way I can see them accomplish that is if there's a good single target ability on one side of the tree and a good aoe ability on the opposite side of the tree. That would force you to do different build routes for aoe vs single target. You'll probably always want the aoe for M+ and single target for raid. So, unless we can freely change talents out of combat (highly unlikely) then I don't see this system offering much versatility.

    I imagine it to be like soulbinds and conduits. I don't know about you, but I never change those. I know friends that do, but I see the changes to be so minor that I don't even care.
    The key difference is that talents can be internally balanced.

    Let's say that a Shaman has a Lava Lash build and a Stormstrike build. The Lava Lash talent is like 15% behind the Stormstrike one. But with layered systems... there might be a conduit power, soulbind, and legendary that makes the Lava Lash build 25% better than the Stormstrike build. Now they can't even touch the underpowered talent to bring it "in line" with the baseline, because they need to consider the layers of other systems that were designed with those imbalanced numbers in mind, implicitly carving bad design in stone.

    I hope that talents allow for them to spend time balancing the game that isn't thrown out.

    Let's say that Stormstrike build is based on Haste, whereas the Lava Lash build is based on Mastery. Now you can design two separate playstyles for the same spec, both focusing on single-target DPS, but playing very differently. And they can make adjustments based on that singular system to keep them in line. In fact, even a small amount of imbalance would be permissible if player skill can make up the difference. So what if that Lava Lash build is 5% better in the sim if I can play my Stormstrike build 10% better than that because of personal preference, ability, and gear?

  20. #180
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    I am honestly pretty excited. These big trees are much easier to tinker with and can easily fit new abilities while removing those that do not work (imagine doing it with current talent system mid expansion). Maybe this time we will avoid the "where is new talent row Blizz?", or having some talents pretty much dead for a few expacs. And even if they will be dead, good chances are that it wont be that significant among so many other options. But big dick testing is required.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2022-05-02 at 07:12 PM.
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