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  1. #321
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    Regardless of the talent changes itself the big change is that they so far at least stated they will try to step away from useless borrowed power systems.
    That is the big thing and a much needed, long requested change.
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  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    The key difference with the proposed system is that you can change how you're spec'd inside instances and so on with saved setups, so there won't be one "right" build. The "right" build for one specific boss won't be the same as another.
    I actually doubt they will let you respec inside M+. You'll still be able to switch per boss in raids but for M+ it will be one decision depending on Dungeon and Affixes.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Requitus View Post
    I saw those trees and immediately thought, "Oh no, button bloat incoming?". Granted, I was one of the weirdos who LIKED the "great prune" in Legion.
    Thanks to Blizzard's love of mini-cooldown talents and on-use trinkets with CDs that don't match class cooldowns, there's plenty of button bloat already in SL (and in BfA too), most of it for not very interesting effects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    People saying how the current talent rows are better which would be true if they hadn't been abandoned for 10 years... When was the last time those talent rows felt meaningful. MoP? WoD? Most of the time they were ignored in favour or expansion only systems...
    Legion for several of my characters. The were several different Elemental builds, a couple of different Frost DK builds, and some decent choices in the Ret Pally talents (until they nerfed the choices away).

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I actually doubt they will let you respec inside M+. You'll still be able to switch per boss in raids but for M+ it will be one decision depending on Dungeon and Affixes.
    Yeah there is literally no way they will allow that when you can't even change gear in dungeons.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathspell View Post
    Yeah there is literally no way they will allow that when you can't even change gear in dungeons.
    It would completely change how we run dungeons. Let's be fair, not everyone swapped gear; it was a tactic mostly for people trying to push keys and was mostly there to deal with large empty stretches where you could not mount (speed sets) and certain bosses' damage abilities going crazy and requiring a defensive set, mostly for Tyrannical. If you could switch talents you would at the very least switch to an ST set for almost every boss on Tyrannical weeks (imo Tyrannical and Fortified should be removed entirely with maybe a weaker version of Tyrannical retained as a second tier affix)

    So I doubt it will happen. We will see people picking specific talents that help them deal with affix mechanics or switch to stronger ST before they start the key though. And that will add a lot of planning and strategy already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    Legion for several of my characters. The were several different Elemental builds, a couple of different Frost DK builds, and some decent choices in the Ret Pally talents (until they nerfed the choices away).
    Legion did a great job at that, especially in 7.2 and after. The synergy different builds had with different legendaries (and different relic traits) let at least a few specs roll different builds. There were THREE different Elemental builds, all of them viable, all requiring different legendary combos.

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Bakis View Post
    Regardless of the talent changes itself the big change is that they so far at least stated they will try to step away from useless borrowed power systems.
    That is the big thing and a much needed, long requested change.
    So what do we do after another 8 expansions of new abilities get added to bloat the system?

    That is the problem 'borrowed power' tried to solve. How to give players new stuff every expansion without piling on more and more stuff until its to much.
    I have yet to see any opponents of borrowed power make an attempt to solve this issue other then stick their fingers in their ear and pretend like its not a problem to begin with.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by Skayth View Post
    How much do you want to bet with the new talent system, that the borrowed powered you used so much... will be baked into it?
    didnt they literaly said so in the DF introduction videos? that some old powers from borrowed systems will be part of "new" talents?
    and honestly, thats not a bad thing, quite the opposite, i think one of the worst things blizz do (and one of loudest complaint about borrowed powers) is that things get just tossed asside after some time, why would recycling things that worked be bad ffs?!

  8. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I actually doubt they will let you respec inside M+. You'll still be able to switch per boss in raids but for M+ it will be one decision depending on Dungeon and Affixes.
    I'm pretty sure they specifically called out being able to change specs for bosses, but perhaps they were thinking of in a raid, so yeah, it may well be that M+ doesn't allow that. If so it'll certainly mean M+ has a lot narrower specs (as it'd be per-dungeon rather than per-boss).
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  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by LuxTheGamer View Post
    They seem confusing, and I feel like I'll be stressed out by them, I've played Classic and have quit as the talents seem too extreme and such.
    I prefer the WOD era talents as I started in Late MOP and boosted a fury warrior in warlords of Draenor, and I might miss the pick a talent, and boom, you read the thing and you pick a talent. That seems easy, but with this other system, I don't understand I'm not sure.
    The talents are too extreme? whats confusing about +1% to hit lmao

  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    So what do we do after another 8 expansions of new abilities get added to bloat the system?

    That is the problem 'borrowed power' tried to solve. How to give players new stuff every expansion without piling on more and more stuff until its to much.

    I have yet to see any opponents of borrowed power make an attempt to solve this issue other then stick their fingers in their ear and pretend like its not a problem to begin with.
    I mean, this was discussed a lot even before "borrowed power" was a thing. I don't know if you started with WoW or played pre-WoW MMOs (10 years here, I'm guessing you maybe played ones before WoW?), but pre-WoW, a lot of games did have some kind of endgame advancement system that wasn't "borrowed power", that was permanent.

    For example, EverQuest has the Alternate Advancement system (which I am not an expert on), which is a huge selection of abilities you can buy up with Alternate Advancement points, and Dark Age of Camelot has the Realm Ability system (which I am more familiar with), which was not dissimilar (as I understand it), where you have a large selection (based on your class) of Realm Abilities, which are a mixture of passive and active abilities, which you can buy up when you got your Realm Rank to a certainly level (In DAoC this is via RvR, except on Gaheris, where it is via PvE raids in the area used for RvR on other servers).

    I think with Blizzard they're planning something different, I mean, it's impossible to say until we see it, but more along the lines of giving us a few more Spec Points each expansion, and adding more abilities to the spec tree.

    Now here's the trick though: those abilities do not need to be at the end of the spec tree. You can add new abilities into the middle or even the bottom of the spec tree. But because you have to spec for them, it's unlikely to ever be optimal for you to just spec for the maximum number of active abilities, because thanks to the GCD, casting times and so on, you can only be doing so many active things at once. Most of your spec points are probably going to be spent on passive abilities, rather than active one, I would suspect.

    You probably do want to add a bit to the end of the tree, but so long as you have alternative, passive ways to spend points, you don't get the same "MY HOTBAR IS FULL!!!!" effect that happens if you just keep piling new abilities on to a class. Because people will self-limit. There's no point spec'ing for abilities it'll be impractical to use.

    Does that make sense? I kind of wonder if it needs a diagram to make sense.

    EDIT - Also, just an addenda, one thing WoW and FFXIV have discovered which was not known back in the day was that you can do squishes and take stuff away and people won't riot, so if WoW somehow lasts another eight expansions (so, to 2038-ish - basically its entire lifespan so far again), which seems incredibly unlikely to me, but w/e, I'm sure they'll squish things again and prune the trees at some point (like the 5th expansion or w/e). Pretty sure Ion even mentioned this as a possibility.
    Last edited by Eurhetemec; 2022-05-20 at 12:00 PM.
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  11. #331
    As a Warlock main, the different legendaries we play with this patch is the best «choices» we have had in the game for a long time. Much more than the talents. I really hope many of these legendaries end up as talents in Dragonflight.

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    I'm pretty sure they specifically called out being able to change specs for bosses, but perhaps they were thinking of in a raid, so yeah, it may well be that M+ doesn't allow that. If so it'll certainly mean M+ has a lot narrower specs (as it'd be per-dungeon rather than per-boss).
    Per Dungeon and Affix. People will likely run different specs for Tyrannical so they can increase ST. And as a tankadin I've always had to switch around a couple of utility talents depending on the other affixes as well; you don't always want Spellwarding or Consecrated Ground.

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by catalystical View Post
    Yes and no. What convenants, conduits and soulbinds have taught us is if one choice isn't superior to another by a lot and if it still kinda makes sense, then it'll be fine.

    Even for Paladins, if choices like Divine Toll makes somewhat sense, some will still pick it over say Ashen. But as a negative example, for DKs, things like Abomination Limb is way overpowered. So they have to tune back some abilities but at some point in the bell curve, there are players who start to don't care about min-maxing and to us, flavour still trumps.
    Not just flavour. Ease of use is also important for a lot of people - one reason Survival isn't popular is that the top build is very fiddly in play.

    Heck, there are a lot of players copying the 'best' builds that should, given their level of skill, actually be choosing less fiddly builds with slightly lower theoretical throughput and if they did so they'd get better results (and probably enjoy themselves more).

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    Quote Originally Posted by kansor View Post
    My skepticism is about the cost in dev time. This looks like the biggest balance and design project in the new expansion. Why is it necessary?

    The new talents may end up being a perfectly fine system in their own right, but what was wrong with the old system that justifies spending this time on a rework? Getting this means we don't get something else that they could do instead. As far as I can tell the current system wasn't causing any complaints, so the unnecessary rework could end up being project mismanagement.
    Because it replaces the current talents system (which needs a lot of work on the talents anyway because a ton of specs have heaps of dead talents), and it replaces all the borrowed power systems. As over the past three expansions a lot of dev time during the expansion has gone on tweaking borrowed power systems and making up new ones (there was a new one in Legion for Argus, and two new ones in BfA, one each for the last two raid tiers). All that time and energy can be spent on just the one system now. Maybe we'll be actual fixes to busted character design during expansions again, rather than just blanket DPS bumps up and down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stansted12 View Post
    I actually liked borrowed power. The criticism of it seemed to be just people repeating the words of 2-3 streamers. I don't think they really thought about it.

    Borrowed power meant we got interesting new abilities every xpac. A returns to talents means less content, less diverse builds, less scope for creativity, a really, really dull game.
    I hate it in its current form. It was fine in Legion, until Argus (where we got another system of it layered on). But back then we thought that, as with tier set bonuses, we'd generally get to keep most of it in some way - that it wasn't 'borrowed' so much as the normal level, talent, and gear advancement all bundled into the weapon and that by some mechanism (and associated story arc) we'd absorb some of it. Instead what powers we did get to keep we pushed into the talent tree, often at the expense of other talents (to be fair, many of those were junk talents, but not all). In BfA and SL it was clear that borrowed power was just that, meaning that the underlying characters are not really seeing any growth and, as with D&D and other traditional tabletop RPGs (from which MMORPGs descend), players generally expect their characters to grow personally and not only through their gear.

    Now, if borrowed power had been implemented such that characters still meaningfully grew underneath it, and were reasonably complete without it (something SL does do a bit better than BfA), it wouldn't feel so bad. As it stands, when all the conduits, etc., are turned off it's going to feel like when you walk out of Torghast after a good run and go and do world quests - you go from god-like to complete suck.

  14. #334
    What I hate is having to re-set abilities on action bars every time you swap talent, because you loose or gain some abilities, and usually I prefer most of my skills to be macroed (mouseovers, @cursor etc) with these new-old talents there might be a lot of fiddling around with that and I prefer to set my action bars for good and pretty much forget, untill next time ill want to do a re-spec, kind of like in ol' days.

  15. #335
    The Lightbringer Skayth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    didnt they literaly said so in the DF introduction videos? that some old powers from borrowed systems will be part of "new" talents?
    and honestly, thats not a bad thing, quite the opposite, i think one of the worst things blizz do (and one of loudest complaint about borrowed powers) is that things get just tossed asside after some time, why would recycling things that worked be bad ffs?!
    When you have to rework and grind to get back the power you had before? It kinda sucks. What's the lore reason why my eyebeam doesnt have a chance of resetting? It been there since legion. Oh right... they need to offer that at some point at the next lvl cap in hope of that I dont see what they are doing.

    Basically, I'm saying is, they have been fucking lazy by reusing the stuff as if it's new content. No, I dont want another god damn legendary that does the same shit as before. Just bake it into the fucking class already if you think I need it!

    Most of the damn borrowed powered is quite literally the same shit I've had since legion, either named something different or made into an aoe, or st. Venthyr ability? Suped up bloodlet. Sigil? Aoe soul carver. Let's not talk about all the blade dance shit they stack in there.

    Been playing since vanilla, I'm used to seeing abilities come, and some abilities going... but not an entire expansions worth... and then on top of that, them reusing the same shit for the past 3 expansions. That is laziness. Want to give a special ability per expansion then take it away? Fine. As long as it's a single ability thematically for the expansion. But suspect you can use the same shit over and over? Obviously players are going to be upset.

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by Skayth View Post
    Been playing since vanilla, I'm used to seeing abilities come, and some abilities going... but not an entire expansions worth... and then on top of that, them reusing the same shit for the past 3 expansions. That is laziness. Want to give a special ability per expansion then take it away? Fine. As long as it's a single ability thematically for the expansion. But suspect you can use the same shit over and over? Obviously players are going to be upset.
    Aye - one of the stronger AoE legendaries for Ret is just one of the secondary powers from Ashbringer back in Legion - and when it comes down to it, that was just a nerfed version of a WoD talent. The same goes for Resto Shaman legendaries.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by LuxTheGamer View Post
    They seem confusing, and I feel like I'll be stressed out by them, I've played Classic and have quit as the talents seem too extreme and such.
    I prefer the WOD era talents as I started in Late MOP and boosted a fury warrior in warlords of Draenor, and I might miss the pick a talent, and boom, you read the thing and you pick a talent. That seems easy, but with this other system, I don't understand I'm not sure.
    Depends on implementation really.
    How much of a kit will be moved to talents and which parts of the kit.
    It also opens the system for further growth.

    Talents of olde werent that complicated, and, as with any version of them there were cookie-cutter builds easily found on the net.

    The thing with current revision is that we stopped getting new rows back in Legion and our "power progression" moved to borrowed power. As with any borrowed power - its borrowed and gone in the next pre-patch.
    This, to me, felt like insanely huge waste of time, im spending a lot of time to "grow" just to feel like wet noodle as soon as new expansion lands.
    As the borrowed power went out of control i lost "connection" to my characters and, after 16years - left the game.

    But i also went back to BCClassic and leveled few characters.
    It felt slow but rewarding. Every level i got new spell rank and talent point, mentally i was being tricked like i got stronger but in practice majority of old stat increase talents were 0.3-1%.

    Now. Blizzard is known for making beautiful art and fun but overcomplicated systems, main question is - how much will new system be fun?
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    It's not nerfed unless it's live.

  18. #338
    Catering to people like OP is partly why retail sucks in the first place

    Stop catering for the elite and stop catering for the people who are too ignorant to find out where a pvp vendor is or google a talent spec. Aim for the middle ground

  19. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowClassic View Post
    Catering to people like OP is partly why retail sucks in the first place

    Stop catering for the elite and stop catering for the people who are too ignorant to find out where a pvp vendor is or google a talent spec. Aim for the middle ground
    It honestly kind of sounds like the main thrust of this expansion is exactly aimed at the middle ground, so it'll be interesting to see if that works out or if the monkey's paw curls.
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  20. #340
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    So what do we do after another 8 expansions of new abilities get added to bloat the system?

    That is the problem 'borrowed power' tried to solve. How to give players new stuff every expansion without piling on more and more stuff until its to much.
    I have yet to see any opponents of borrowed power make an attempt to solve this issue other then stick their fingers in their ear and pretend like its not a problem to begin with.
    BLZ is banking on players not feeling they actually need a ton of new abilities added/removed every expansion or at a bare minimum that players see it as trade-off well worth it in order to have solid talent trees with options available in themselves as baseline.
    The devs need to find a balance of cutting back on new stuff and focus on a sustainable framework.

    By now it is abundantly clear that the opposite of making, lesser <-> complete upheaval, of "talent trees" and abilities every expansion is something the playerbase really dislike. There is no feeling of character progression if to spend and entire expansion investing a ton of time into some borrowed power system only to become a peon at the start of next expansion.

    What BLZ look for now is continuity and rightly so. If they pull off what we have seen glimpses of so far (and that is a big ask) then playing the game concerning those parts wont feel like a yo-yo experience of being throttled between feeling powerful and a wet nuddle. Because that is dull as fuck.
    But soon after Mr Xi secured a third term, Apple released a new version of the feature in China, limiting its scope. Now Chinese users of iPhones and other Apple devices are restricted to a 10-minute window when receiving files from people who are not listed as a contact. After 10 minutes, users can only receive files from contacts.
    Apple did not explain why the update was first introduced in China, but over the years, the tech giant has been criticised for appeasing Beijing.

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