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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Personally I think the "cater to the hard core" is the wrong argument. A better argument is years of raid or die (read 'leave' for die) design which attempted to get people with no interest in raiding into what the developers feel is their best and most important content. That last is really arguable but the fact remains that years of trying to get people to be interested in something they clearly are not is not working for them. That was very clear in Warlords which was a decent expansion for raids but totally lacked in things to do if you weren't interested in that.

    The raiding community works on exclusion instead of inclusion—working to grow the raiding base—so of course it continues to gradually shrink through attrition. Your argument above, which sounds reasonable, is still based on "well, why aren't you raiding?"

    That's not the answer if they want to return to better business. So no, I don't think it's an issue of catering to a clearly undefined "hard core." That misses the point entirely.

    Ion has talked three times that I'm aware of now about providing an expansion that will allow people to play and progress in the content they prefer. If he and the team delivers on that promise then the issue will become more moot. There are signs in the last SL patch that they might be waking up to this. We'll see.
    I can't really see how it has been raid or die. Raids have only at best been consistent they haven't grown nor expanded over the years. If anything there has been more and more of a push to prompt up every other style of gameplay much to the detriment of the game.

    Every power progression system wasn't designed around raid game play. Warfront, isles, visions, mage tower, torghast and more are all content they tried to add

    The main failing of that content was for the most part bar visions ( I think those failed because of how high the cost of failure was and their over reliance on their own talent system) was designed to be completed by people who can barely turn on the game.

    Raids are only focused on because of how powerful the rewards are and how appealing that aspect is for players driven by clout. If you moved the ilv to mythic 20s you would see the same reaction from the playerbase.

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Has this ever actually happened and if so can you make a note of when?

    I understand that there is this rhetoric the top end hates the terrible players and is out to ruin there content but it has never made much sense to me.

    I recall players saying lfr would turn into a dumpster fire that would invalidate dungeons solely to give whiny players free loot and till the end of wod that was a pretty accurate take.

    Usually what happens is the top end players warn something is going to be fucking awful if they dumb it down for the terrible players who want free rewards. Blizzard ignores the feedback and ap,azerite,corruption, islands, etc are born.

    I am going to actually really drive this home past the finish line. It is exceedingly rare you ever see players outside of mythic and higher rated pvp EVER bitch about the content. I don't think content matters to them if I'm being blunt. Nearly every time they complain it comes down to rewards and once they have those rewards they are scornful that no one cares about those rewards anymore.

    It comes off at least to me. That they have this weird desire to be a hero in an mmo where they are at best mediocre or below. It isnt something I can easily put myself into their shoes with because if that was my goal ( it isn't) I would just work at getting better.
    Every single post you make completely confirms your bias, and I don't think you have any idea you even do it.

    Every point you think you make relies on a basis of opinion that you imply is fact, or requires the acceptance of being fact to work as a point.

    You should try to reread your posts with a focus on dividing what is actually a fact and what is your opinion of that fact, because the two frequently do not align from the point of view of players in those positions.


    Quote Originally Posted by Celement
    I can't really see how it has been raid or die. Raids have only at best been consistent they haven't grown nor expanded over the years. If anything there has been more and more of a push to prompt up every other style of gameplay much to the detriment of the game.

    Every power progression system wasn't designed around raid game play. Warfront, isles, visions, mage tower, torghast and more are all content they tried to add

    The main failing of that content was for the most part bar visions ( I think those failed because of how high the cost of failure was and their over reliance on their own talent system) was designed to be completed by people who can barely turn on the game.

    Raids are only focused on because of how powerful the rewards are and how appealing that aspect is for players driven by clout. If you moved the ilv to mythic 20s you would see the same reaction from the playerbase.
    Here is a good example. You claim to be unable to see how the game is "raid or die", despite the fact that raiding is by far the fast way to accrue ilvl rewards after a very low entry level. All of the things you listed, to more or lesser degrees, relied on ilvl as a driving factor in progression or success, while not meaningfully contributing to ilvl.

    You're right; if the ilvl was moved to mythic 20s the focus would shift to mythic 20s, because it is the reality that ilvl contributes to success in every facet of the game. For casual players even more so than elite players, ilvl is paramount to improving success rates, while being available from extremely limited sources after a certain point. Ergo: players feel compelled to raid or m+ to get gear to progress their character, regardless of any of the other systems they "tried" to implement.

    The reality is that the majority of players don't want to raid, but can be compelled to do so by rewards which are applicable to the things they actually do.
    Last edited by Delekii; 2022-05-03 at 11:11 AM.

  3. #403
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    The customer is always right.

    It's not just a cliched, smartass saying. In most cases, if the customer's demands are reasonable, it's totally applicable. Without their paying customers, Blizzard goes belly up. Now if you mean why the MMO Champion community is so entitled, then you have a point. Blizzard can survive without that small vocal minorities' unreasonable requests. Their general wow gaming player base and to a lesser extent wow community is what keeps them profitable and puts food on their tables. But they really shouldn't make it a habit of ignoring their player base because they think everyone's requests are entitled and do what they want. Sometimes the player knows more what the player wants than the devs do. Shocking concept, I know.
    Really depends on the product, for most cases where actual profesionals are required to create certain service / product, no, the customer is not right and they should shut up and listen to the professional 90% of the times (example on my field where we design and build houses, and a lot of clients insist in making more than proven mistakes because they think that they like it,but we know that they will not like it in reality, because we´ve seen that happen over and over..)

    In game developing, it is neither but a middle point. You must listen to your playerbase, of course, follow their trends... but you also need to have an audience and not try to pelase everyone. Some players might think that having level skips, free gear with no effort, etc is good... but is it tho?

  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    Every single post you make completely confirms your bias, and I don't think you have any idea you even do it.

    Every point you think you make relies on a basis of opinion that you imply is fact, or requires the acceptance of being fact to work as a point.

    You should try to reread your posts with a focus on dividing what is actually a fact and what is your opinion of that fact, because the two frequently do not align from the point of view of players in those positions.




    Here is a good example. You claim to be unable to see how the game is "raid or die", despite the fact that raiding is by far the fast way to accrue ilvl rewards after a very low entry level. All of the things you listed, to more or lesser degrees, relied on ilvl as a driving factor in progression or success, while not meaningfully contributing to ilvl.

    You're right; if the ilvl was moved to mythic 20s the focus would shift to mythic 20s, because it is the reality that ilvl contributes to success in every facet of the game. For casual players even more so than elite players, ilvl is paramount to improving success rates, while being available from extremely limited sources after a certain point. Ergo: players feel compelled to raid or m+ to get gear to progress their character, regardless of any of the other systems they "tried" to implement.

    The reality is that the majority of players don't want to raid, but can be compelled to do so by rewards which are applicable to the things they actually do.
    Then what is it they want to do that scales with difficulty?

    You make it sound as though there hasn't been attempts at alternative content when there clearly has been. The solution can't and won't be to destroy everything but mythic and lfr via ilv inflation.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Then what is it they want to do that scales with difficulty?

    You make it sound as though there hasn't been attempts at alternative content when there clearly has been. The solution can't and won't be to destroy everything but mythic and lfr via ilv inflation.
    You make it sound as though these alternative content forms don't change with ilvl, when they do. Content gets easier with increased ilvl, and thus things that give increased ilvl will always be something that people feel forced to do if the content they are interested in doesn't provide it.

    There is no intrinsic necessity for raiding to maintain an ilvl buffer over other content just because it always has. If other content provides similar ilvls and people stop raiding, its because people don't want to raid. You can describe this in any number of bias-induced and bias-inducing terms (a most common one is that people follow the path of least resistance), but the reality is that if raiding were compelling in its own right and not simply because it is the simplest way to progress power character, people would have engaged with it from the outset. They didn't.

    Raiding is a niche activity that Blizzard spends far too much time and effort shoehorning into the main aim of the game. As a result, all of their forays into alternative content have been released with a rock tied around their waist, dragging along behind, rather than on an equal footing with the capacity to grow. Anything and everything that gets released gets released in the framework and shadow of raiding being the top dog.

    The reality is that people who are primarily raiders somewhat rely on a captive audience of people who would likely be just as happy doing other things if they didn't feel compelled to raid, because otherwise the critical mass needed to raid effectively would struggle to exist on a lot of server groupings. There is a self-serving purpose to raiders, and Blizzard, ensuring that people who don't particularly want to raid still do it anyway.
    Last edited by Delekii; 2022-05-03 at 11:38 AM.

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    You make it sound as though these alternative content forms don't change with ilvl, when they do. Content gets easier with increased ilvl, and thus things that give increased ilvl will always be something that people feel forced to do if the content they are interested in doesn't provide it.

    There is no intrinsic necessity for raiding to maintain an ilvl buffer over other content just because it always has. If other content provides similar ilvls and people stop raiding, its because people don't want to raid. You can describe this in any number of bias-induced and bias-inducing terms (a most common one is that people follow the path of least resistance), but the reality is that if raiding were compelling in its own right and not simply because it is the simplest way to progress power character, people would have engaged with it from the outset. They didn't.

    Raiding is a niche activity that Blizzard spends far too much time and effort shoehorning into the main aim of the game. As a result, all of their forays into alternative content have been released with a rock tied around their waist, dragging along behind, rather than on an equal footing with the capacity to grow. Anything and everything that gets released gets released in the framework and shadow of raiding being the top dog.

    The reality is that people who are primarily raiders somewhat rely on a captive audience of people who would likely be just as happy doing other things if they didn't feel compelled to raid, because otherwise the critical mass needed to raid effectively would struggle to exist on a lot of server groupings. There is a self-serving purpose to raiders, and Blizzard, ensuring that people who don't particularly want to raid still do it anyway.
    I mean... mythic plus and visions. While I think mythic plus should have a chest and rather cap out at 20 myself. Your argument seems to require we omit content that did have similar ilv and still failed. If I was being unkind I would point out torghast had higher ilv...

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Now everything I am about to bring up can be seen in any mmo. This isn't about wow having unique problems just the frequency I see it compared to other games.

    With that out of the way... why is it that in wow players just come off as brats as the norm?

    You see people complaining constantly that they are not invited to high level content without having done any high level content. You see people turning their noses at starting gear claiming that it isn't near best in slot and only more powerful then the first few tiers of difficult content...


    I just don't get why... in most communities these players are laughed out but here I wouldn't say they are catered to but they come off as the norm.
    I reliazed the problem.

    Blizzard is giving the option to the community - but they are not commiting any promises. The community feels like the customer is king and then you have a bunch of people(giving the size of the playerbase) - all having a need to fix the game. The communication itself created the foundation for what we are observing.

    Blizzard should instead communicate more clearly on realistic milestones and actually reject ideas they don't see fitting. They should act like devs and not customerservice.
    Last edited by HansOlo; 2022-05-03 at 11:58 AM.

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    I mean... mythic plus and visions. While I think mythic plus should have a chest and rather cap out at 20 myself. Your argument seems to require we omit content that did have similar ilv and still failed. If I was being unkind I would point out torghast had higher ilv...
    M+ had a competitive ilvl and was reigned in because it was too popular and undermining raiding. It now only competes in terms of weekly box, which is very slow relative to raiding (and temporality matters). Visions and Torghast both have extremely limited scope; visions was extremely short and limited in potential rewards and very, very unlikely to reward an actual upgrade, and Torghast rewards a single piece of one-and-done gear which then gets upgraded ad-infinitum.. and people do it.

    With the exception of the first iteration of M+ (which was absolutely popular and was reigned in because of it), none of these systems are direct competitors with raiding from a player progression perspective. There is nothing out there that is an actual alternative to raiding, whereby you can say "nah, I don't like raiding.. I'll do this instead". Besides PvP, of course, which is even moreso reliant on a captive "loser" audience to prop up the winners.

    Even the removal of 10 man raiding goes somewhat to show this idea of holding the majority hostage to prop the minority up. 10-man raiding was incredibly popular (in relative terms, compared with raiding in totality), and still remains a common request to this day. Blizzard ostensibly didn't want to deal with the balance issues between the two modes, while ignoring the fact that it doesn't actually matter if the balance between 10 and 25man raiding isn't exactly perfect unless they require them to be exactly equal, which isn't needed. Again; if people want to 25man raid they will 25man raid; if people can choose between 10 or 25 man raiding and choose 10man, its because they don't want to do 25man raids. Removing the mode to create a captive audience for those who want to raid 25man (now 20) is shoehorning the majority to fill the needs of the minority.
    Last edited by Delekii; 2022-05-03 at 12:03 PM.

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    You make it sound as though these alternative content forms don't change with ilvl, when they do. Content gets easier with increased ilvl, and thus things that give increased ilvl will always be something that people feel forced to do if the content they are interested in doesn't provide it.

    There is no intrinsic necessity for raiding to maintain an ilvl buffer over other content just because it always has. If other content provides similar ilvls and people stop raiding, its because people don't want to raid. You can describe this in any number of bias-induced and bias-inducing terms (a most common one is that people follow the path of least resistance), but the reality is that if raiding were compelling in its own right and not simply because it is the simplest way to progress power character, people would have engaged with it from the outset. They didn't.

    Raiding is a niche activity that Blizzard spends far too much time and effort shoehorning into the main aim of the game. As a result, all of their forays into alternative content have been released with a rock tied around their waist, dragging along behind, rather than on an equal footing with the capacity to grow. Anything and everything that gets released gets released in the framework and shadow of raiding being the top dog.

    The reality is that people who are primarily raiders somewhat rely on a captive audience of people who would likely be just as happy doing other things if they didn't feel compelled to raid, because otherwise the critical mass needed to raid effectively would struggle to exist on a lot of server groupings. There is a self-serving purpose to raiders, and Blizzard, ensuring that people who don't particularly want to raid still do it anyway.
    Your whole argument thrones on the assumption that casual players desperately want good gear, near mythic itemlevel to be exact as something above normal+tier is easily attainable right now.

    There are several market cases right now in the ever increasing mmo competition that just... prove this wrong?

  10. #410
    The Lightbringer Battlebeard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalam the Venom View Post
    Kinda weird to me that there are still people out there with that outlook on MMORPGs.

    I have a few games i'd play "Just for fun" Like Swtor, Vindictus, Warframe, Black desert as i'm not as invested in those and don't ever plan to play them at the true endgame grind or efficiany (Tho it's been years since i've touched most of those, It's just stuff i've played previously and how i felt about them when i played them)

    WoW & Blade and soul are the two main games i have atm, WoW is still more of a side activty that i don't engage with too much any more tho, Not played it since Korthia patch, But might get back into it, I heard Surv hunter is said to be very fun atm with the tier set bonus.

    If you are invested and play something a lot tho, i don't see how you can not fall into the "Need to be efficiant for max progression" mentality.

    Why not? Imagine playing tennis with a friend and rushing it all the time "okey lets go serve gogogogo, quick change side, no time for water, SERVE FASTER so we can end this match 15min earlier" it's just a very strange way to do any hobby I think.

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    M+ had a competitive ilvl and was reigned in because it was too popular and undermining raiding. It now only competes in terms of weekly box, which is very slow relative to raiding (and temporality matters). Visions and Torghast both have extremely limited scope; visions was extremely short and limited in potential rewards and very, very unlikely to reward an actual upgrade, and Torghast rewards a single piece of one-and-done gear which then gets upgraded ad-infinitum.. and people do it.

    With the exception of the first iteration of M+ (which was absolutely popular and was reigned in because of it), none of these systems are direct competitors with raiding from a player progression perspective. There is nothing out there that is an actual alternative to raiding, whereby you can say "nah, I don't like raiding.. I'll do this instead". Besides PvP, of course, which is even moreso reliant on a captive "loser" audience to prop up the winners.

    Even the removal of 10 man raiding goes somewhat to show this idea of holding the majority hostage to prop the minority up. 10-man raiding was incredibly popular (in relative terms, compared with raiding in totality), and still remains a common request to this day. Blizzard ostensibly didn't want to deal with the balance issues between the two modes, while ignoring the fact that it doesn't actually matter if the balance between 10 and 25man raiding isn't exactly perfect unless they require them to be exactly equal, which isn't needed. Again; if people want to 25man raid they will 25man raid; if people can choose between 10 or 25 man raiding and choose 10man, its because they don't want to do 25man raids. Removing the mode to create a captive audience for those who want to raid 25man (now 20) is shoehorning the majority to fill the needs of the minority.
    I agree mythic plus shouldn't of been as nerfed as it was. It takes longer then it should to gear though that nerf went alongside a nerf to raid loot though the latter was mostly undone.

  12. #412
    Scarab Lord Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Now everything I am about to bring up can be seen in any mmo. This isn't about wow having unique problems just the frequency I see it compared to other games.

    With that out of the way... why is it that in wow players just come off as brats as the norm?

    You see people complaining constantly that they are not invited to high level content without having done any high level content.
    So people should have done mythic jailer before the first time they try mythic jailer? Cool story, bro

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    So people should have done mythic jailer before the first time they try mythic jailer? Cool story, bro
    People just want to progress their characters. If they can choose between taking someone who has proven they can help with that goal or taking someone who might get in the way of that goal, why would they ever choose the unproven player? There's nothing to gain but there is something to lose by bringing an unproven player.

    Now imagine if bosses dropped extra loot if someone in the group was killing it for the first time. Now there's at least something to gain for letting a less experienced player join.

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    I look at the opposite and don't understand how people can accept the elitistic game that this has become. And the insane requirements that people ask for.

    - People asking for Ahead of the Curve for Normal raids
    - People asking for Keystone Mastery (+15s) to join +10s
    - People asking for full Heroic gear to do Normal raids

    etc etc, it's become a joke.
    It's not that the game or community actually changed. It's that the middle tier casual player (that was the guy who dind't really care about this stuff, only to clear a reasonable amount of content), went away to other more suited games or whatever reasons. The core that stays is the most diehard hence this is what happens.

    Also the whole design seems tailored to appeal exactly the most competitive players, which are usually the most visible aswell.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    I agree mythic plus shouldn't of been as nerfed as it was. It takes longer then it should to gear though that nerf went alongside a nerf to raid loot though the latter was mostly undone.
    M+ even with the nerfs is still by far the best way to gear up. You can spam them to get the loot you want, you can upgrade gear to a decent (albeit lower than mythic raid ilvl) and you can have a guaranteed mythic ilvl piece of gear each week (with all the issues the Vault has).

    Raid it's a weekly chance to a loot you may even not get at all. M+ you can always run one more, and you don't need actual mythic level difficulty to get mythic ilvl loot.

    And a thing many people just doesn't consider: to raid you need a guild and organized schedule. You cannot PUG mythic raids (both because it's locked until later date and because there are not really groups doing it) and pugging HC both has a higher skill/coordination requirement while giving you worse (if at all) rewards.

    It's not really a matter of easy/hard content at all (and we all agree 15s are much easier than mythic raids). It's literally the fact you can spam one while the other is a weekly chance. The vault is equally bad for both as you can get thrash independently from what you're actually doing.

    People pretending to have 15s dish out mythic ilvl gear are literally asking for mythic raid loot without the hassles of actually doing mythic raids.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Has this ever actually happened and if so can you make a note of when?

    I understand that there is this rhetoric the top end hates the terrible players and is out to ruin there content but it has never made much sense to me.

    I recall players saying lfr would turn into a dumpster fire that would invalidate dungeons solely to give whiny players free loot and till the end of wod that was a pretty accurate take.

    Usually what happens is the top end players warn something is going to be fucking awful if they dumb it down for the terrible players who want free rewards. Blizzard ignores the feedback and ap,azerite,corruption, islands, etc are born.

    I am going to actually really drive this home past the finish line. It is exceedingly rare you ever see players outside of mythic and higher rated pvp EVER bitch about the content. I don't think content matters to them if I'm being blunt. Nearly every time they complain it comes down to rewards and once they have those rewards they are scornful that no one cares about those rewards anymore.

    It comes off at least to me. That they have this weird desire to be a hero in an mmo where they are at best mediocre or below. It isnt something I can easily put myself into their shoes with because if that was my goal ( it isn't) I would just work at getting better.
    Yes, people have a "weird desire" to feel like a "hero" in...a video game. If there was ever a potent example of how detached from reality your perspective it is, that's it right there. Does anything more need to be said? You are so absurdly infatuated with yourself, that you are expressing confusion at the idea of having fun in a video game.

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    If you can start a group and get people to apply who are above the qualifications, why wouldn't you take them over someone who doesn't have them?

    If you run a business and try to hire new folks and a bunch of people with elite experience apply for the same salary, would you really hire the noobs?
    Your above assertions are 100% correct. This isn't something that is the player's fault.

    It is the game's fault.

    The game should mechanically prevent such behavior, and we would all be the better for it, imo.
    Last edited by Zenfoldor; 2022-05-03 at 01:54 PM.

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    Where did they cater to the hardcore ? The only hardcore catering I saw is adding Mythic raid difficulty, and even that was more like bad players complaining they couldn't complete Heroic, so they shifted some stuff around and created Flex for both Normal and Heroic.
    The entire endgame loop is based around doing normal+ raiding, mythic+ dungeons, or rated pvp. If you don't want to do any of those things, the game has virtually nothing to offer you. You outgear almost everything else in literally just days after hitting max level. The whole structure of the endgame is based on rapidly funneling players into those three activities, all of which are for hardcore players. Everything outside of those things is pathetically poorly designed, not engaging, typically time gated, and offers almost no rewards of substance or a long term endgame loop with a progression path.

  18. #418
    Pandaren Monk Nalam the Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    Why not? Imagine playing tennis with a friend and rushing it all the time "okey lets go serve gogogogo, quick change side, no time for water, SERVE FASTER so we can end this match 15min earlier" it's just a very strange way to do any hobby I think.
    Hopefully you just play with friends then.

    I’d say it’s pretty rude to stomp on someone elses enjoyment just because you have a different outlook on the game.

    If you do group content then be considerate towards your fellow players and don’t slack too much.

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  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalam the Venom View Post
    Hopefully you just play with friends then.

    I’d say it’s pretty rude to stomp on someone elses enjoyment just because you have a different outlook on the game.

    If you do group content then be considerate towards your fellow players and don’t slack too much.
    Imagine joining a pickup basketball game at the gym, acting like its the fucking NBA, ruining the fun for everyone, and then claiming everyone else is being "rude" for not also acting like a delusional, narcissistic maniac.

  20. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Where is the pocpoc upgrade panel? I was told i need to run m+ to get items to upgrade as well? I completed the campaign and got my legendary belt but I dont remember upgrading pocpoc. I have like 5 different currencies and im not sure what most of these do.

    Again in wrath it was much simpler. Run dungeon get tier It was slower sure and maybe not even as lucrative but like their was less hurdles to jump through.
    I believe even dailies awarded justice points at sone point.

    It was about the journey then for many not just the simple act if gearing. Getting that upgrade felt great as it really boosted our ability to do even non group things.

    I remember going from struggling with the tournament to near the end just jumping off my horse and wiping out the other side because f that jousting i'm strong enough to do it solo now.

    It took a longer time sure. But i think that made the impact of the gear feel more significant.

    Tbh concepts such as the "feel" of sonething or rather emotion(and maybe even fun) as well as "the journey" is what seems to never be considered by many and especially Ion who goes purely by numbers. Video games are art not just a scientific metric you can quantify. Theres an emotional aspect that seems to get pretty heavily ignored these days

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    That's clever and probably has some benefit to it but I don't think it actually addresses his concern about reward systems being exploited to the hilt so people can min max their face off. I don't think it's a particularly valid concern, it's selfish but what you're proposing simple sounds like another avenue for them to further leverage additional player power albeit in service of helping others. They will still complain about being "forced" only this time the complaints will include being forced to interact with pleebs. Actually that's exactly happened when LFR had trinkets and tier sets. Like that's the best part, the behaviour he's ascribing as human nature is usually relegated to children and sociopaths but evidently this is everybody playing every game everywhere. Like dudes in uzbekistan playing sims 4 are concerned about min maxing. Gtfo with this garbage bullshit.
    You actually just get cosmetics, titles or mounts for the mentor/commemdations.

    They also took the wrath era justice/valor system renamed it tomestones and made it so ANY activity on a high level character gets tomestones with a weekly cap on raid ilv(so say doing the random high level roulette..oh yeah there are multiple random dungeon roulettes for multiple types of content from the latest ones to old max level to simple leveling ones to "trials"(single boss raids) to "alliance raids"(24 nan raids about normal mode difficulty) etc). You can also get them through hunt trains(bosses that spawn in the open world at certain times). You can also crazy slowly get some of the non end game tomestones through pvp(whose gear is now 100% aesthetic and is auto equalized even with different skills/abilities for everyone)

    Crafters have there own way to get a counterpart called scribs to gear

    Cool thing is getting a new player in group content awards extra tomestones/points so you can gear up faster. But doesn't explicity award power for doing a good job/being helpful.

    All in all you can do most anything you want and progress if on a max level class(if not you get daily xp bonuses and some older tomestones for gear from prior expansions)

    It's basically just a variant on wraths system and it WORKS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    This is my feelings on this as well.

    I did a lot more optional content when the "required" content (AKA content I needed to do to progress my main character's strength for the content I was trying to tackle- namely Heroic Raiding) was kept at a bare minimum. There was a time in Wrath where the only way I could actually get better gear was to show up to my weekly raid nights. Once those were done or earlier in the day before they started well... I had literally nothing to do.
    I spent much of that time leveling and gearing alts, participating in pug raids on said alts, exploring the world with my friends on Vent (oh lord). I have plenty of screenshots from that time period. My friend and I decided to climb down into the bottom of Blackrock Mountain and go fishing in the lava. Cool screenshot I still have to this day. I also had a priest friend who started abusing Levitate in order to get to out of bounds areas. He was visited by an in game GM who asked him what he was doing in the middle of the giant area behind AQ that would later become Uldum. He got a screenshot of the GM floating in mid air in front of him LOL.

    There were a lot of fun things you could do in the game when you didn't have a carrot on a stick constantly dangling in front of you. I hope they go back to that old model. Torgast would have been a lot of fun if it was optional. I remember a lot of people during SLs beta who said it was a blast, and then immediately hated it once they started changing it to give it a functional end with a reward system.
    I think you hit on why i preferred the point system. I do my daily get the points then just do whatever. I ran alts i worked on gearing a character i chose or just went and did random stuff.

    I didn't feel trapped or forced to do 50 seperate checklists. It was a small list and even then i miss a day i could compensate elsewhere. It wasn't a job.

    Also reminds me of South Park where they took out the asshole ganker and then after no lifing go "ok NOW we can have fun"..After doing an insane amount of mind numbing grinding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Aside from talents, this entire expansion press tour has been about the things they aren't doing anymore, rather than what they are going to do.

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    Interesting. What technology did you use to wipe your mind of all knowledge about the game before doing that?

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    Hitting max level and running out of things to do in two weeks isn't "never had it better". It's boring.
    I think for some it's purely about ilv not the journey in getting it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    Yeesh, the arrogance on these forums is astonishing. Just 100% speculation trotted out as unassailable truth, repeated ad nauseum. Incredible to behold.

    But on the point of solo progression...really feels like some of yall haven't played this patch! You can get tier solo for the first time ever! And having set is more potent than all other gear combined. Like literally 20-30 ilvls worth in some cases.

    You can also get two 291 legos and upgrade ZM gear to normal raid level.

    And if you don't want to do any of that, you can always pug low keys for vault options or just do LFR and get set that way.

    Or go play other games and don't worry about the secret cabal of evil devs or whatever! That's great too.
    "First time ever" no not really you could get tier sets in wrath solo. Took ages but doable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    I mean... mythic plus and visions. While I think mythic plus should have a chest and rather cap out at 20 myself. Your argument seems to require we omit content that did have similar ilv and still failed. If I was being unkind I would point out torghast had higher ilv...
    Things like Visions(which was very fun fairly casual content imo) are ONLY put in by expansions end.

    Why not have a thing like it from the start?

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