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  1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Oh you're totally right on this - less people in the group = tighter meta. We have way too many specs in game imho, and to me specs should define roles when applicable. But that's just me. And in M+ not only the smaller group counts but also the fact it's a constantly scaling content so some classes due to their own mechanics and scaling are just flat out better than others.

    But since meta isn't really avoidable i think a clear indication from Blizzard about what is the balance target would help a lot. I'm fine with a strict meta if it's mostly tied to content that doesn't relate to player power.
    In reality the meta does not matter for the part of M+ that is progression; everyone can do +15s in time, you don't need the extra tank damage or the insane burst AoE so you can do larger pulls. But there should still be some effort to tune for higher keys (especially given the focus they give to Dungeons as esports). But ofc player perception is always problematic and meta specs effectively get a bonus to their rating as far as some people are concerned.

    Still think they could make their lives more easy if there was a separate gear progression for Dungeons (so you'd have PvP, Raids and maybe even a World progression track).

  2. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    I hate these groups so much, that I wish there would be some ingame penalty.

    It actually affects me. Yes - I might be addicted to the game and a big supporter - but atleast make sense when you are suggesting something.

    WoD is the direct result of them pleasing these groups. Creating systems is the direct results of the constant outcry of "nothing new". All of it damaged the game and the community itself.
    Wait. What did WoD do? I know the purple-haired problem glass wearing types took over Blizz just after Legion pretty much, but what's wrong with WoD?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    In reality the meta does not matter for the part of M+ that is progression; everyone can do +15s in time, you don't need the extra tank damage or the insane burst AoE so you can do larger pulls. But there should still be some effort to tune for higher keys (especially given the focus they give to Dungeons as esports). But ofc player perception is always problematic and meta specs effectively get a bonus to their rating as far as some people are concerned.

    Still think they could make their lives more easy if there was a separate gear progression for Dungeons (so you'd have PvP, Raids and maybe even a World progression track).
    MoP did it right. It really did. The really good content wasn't about gear at all. PVP shouldn't be about gear either. But alas, Blizzard always listens to the most vocal minorities. The guys behind the changes to classes over the years should probably stick to climbing trees to get coconuts for tourists. It's despicable what some classes have become.

  3. #523
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Still think they could make their lives more easy if there was a separate gear progression for Dungeons (so you'd have PvP, Raids and maybe even a World progression track).
    That, or they could go the opposite route so the loot table is just one and shared. Raid drops will need to obviously be tailored better but this is a process that's already happening.

    Either way is fine to me.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  4. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    In reality the meta does not matter for the part of M+ that is progression; everyone can do +15s in time, you don't need the extra tank damage or the insane burst AoE so you can do larger pulls. But there should still be some effort to tune for higher keys (especially given the focus they give to Dungeons as esports). But ofc player perception is always problematic and meta specs effectively get a bonus to their rating as far as some people are concerned.

    Still think they could make their lives more easy if there was a separate gear progression for Dungeons (so you'd have PvP, Raids and maybe even a World progression track).
    According to raiderio the meta only starts to kick in at 20s and up. Every class has at least ONE viable spec for 20s. But we are way past the progression cap of 15s at that point. Hell you could even stack classes or specs till 23s (as seen in the break the Class Clash) obviously classes without healer or tank specs aren't represented (for obvious reasons). But stacking 3 WW for a 24 is hardly ideal in any normal circumstance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    In reality the meta does not matter for the part of M+ that is progression; everyone can do +15s in time, you don't need the extra tank damage or the insane burst AoE so you can do larger pulls. But there should still be some effort to tune for higher keys (especially given the focus they give to Dungeons as esports). But ofc player perception is always problematic and meta specs effectively get a bonus to their rating as far as some people are concerned.

    Still think they could make their lives more easy if there was a separate gear progression for Dungeons (so you'd have PvP, Raids and maybe even a World progression track).
    I really think that addressing outliers would fix most of this, aka nerfing the top and buffing the bottom. Like I can't believe that destro warlocks and survival hunters are just sitting there still dramatically better than everyone else.

    Balance in the middle is usually decent!

    (Meaning most specs are in there and similar)
    Last edited by Ashana Darkmoon; 2022-05-12 at 07:54 PM.

  6. #526
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    I really think that addressing outliers would fix most of this, aka nerfing the top and buffing the bottom. Like I can't believe that destro warlocks and survival hunters are just sitting there still dramatically better than everyone else.

    Balance in the middle is usually decent!

    (Meaning most specs are in there and similar)
    Leave my SV alone, it was garbage when I started playing it, it's kinda OP now, don't touch it !
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  7. #527
    The reality is for all the discussion of meta, it is only the outliers that actually matter to the vast majority of players. Claiming that the fact there is a meta is a reason to not do something is ludicrous. Specs just need to be competitive, they don't all need to be equally number one. The reason that the meta is so ingrained is that Blizzard will not balance iteratively enough. If they did small percentage buffs far more frequently, the "meta" would change too quickly for it to be a realistic concern to most players, and no individual class would be so far ahead or behind for it to be a problem.

    The reason the "meta" is exists is because Blizzard balances in a way that not only creates it, but reinforces it. They won't make mid-tier changes because they don't want to invalidate people's progression, but the alternative is balancing far more often in far smaller increments so that no spec becomes invalidated at all.

  8. #528
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Now everything I am about to bring up can be seen in any mmo. This isn't about wow having unique problems just the frequency I see it compared to other games.

    With that out of the way... why is it that in wow players just come off as brats as the norm?

    You see people complaining constantly that they are not invited to high level content without having done any high level content. You see people turning their noses at starting gear claiming that it isn't near best in slot and only more powerful then the first few tiers of difficult content...


    I just don't get why... in most communities these players are laughed out but here I wouldn't say they are catered to but they come off as the norm.
    Some are, some are not. Think it also has to do with the content. You are mostly talking about raid stuff here.
    Most other games the raids or stuff are not big groups or this long.
    A raid now is 20 people. A person not comming prepared screws the time over for 19 other people.

    And dude ( or lady)......are you kidding me. Other games are not entiteld.
    Hell in WoW people might say: you are not prepared ( :P), or geared enough.

    In other games people curse at you, holler at you, scream etc. And there is way more toxic behavior there...

  9. #529
    Quote Originally Posted by zysis View Post
    Wait. What did WoD do? I know the purple-haired problem glass wearing types took over Blizz just after Legion pretty much, but what's wrong with WoD?

    - - - Updated - - -



    MoP did it right. It really did. The really good content wasn't about gear at all. PVP shouldn't be about gear either. But alas, Blizzard always listens to the most vocal minorities. The guys behind the changes to classes over the years should probably stick to climbing trees to get coconuts for tourists. It's despicable what some classes have become.
    I prefer MoP over any expansions past this point. WoD presents the new era of them pleasing these groups of flakey people.

  10. #530
    Keyboard Turner Baraquda13's Avatar
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    I agree, problems with the game really, but every game is not without problems.

  11. #531
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    I look at the opposite and don't understand how people can accept the elitistic game that this has become. And the insane requirements that people ask for.

    - People asking for Ahead of the Curve for Normal raids
    - People asking for Keystone Mastery (+15s) to join +10s
    - People asking for full Heroic gear to do Normal raids

    etc etc, it's become a joke.
    You were literally asking for LFR to be unwipable and still award gear in the other thread. Nothing you say holds any value anymore.
    And none of the behaviour you mentioned is new. People asking for proof of skill has been in the game since Vanilla. And none of those requirements are insane.

    To asnwer the OP: Because WoW is one of the most expensive games to play. Full price for the expansion + monthly sub costs.
    Every so often this exact same topic comes up and the OP needs to be reminded that we're customers who are paying more than what the competitors ask for. On top of that Blizzard keeps saying they're "listening to feedback" yet so far it has always been proven to be a lie. At least be honest.
    Last edited by Aydinx2; 2022-05-23 at 08:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2
    People who don't buy the deluxe edition should be permanently banned. I'm sick of playing with poor people.

  12. #532
    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    I prefer MoP over any expansions past this point. WoD presents the new era of them pleasing these groups of flakey people.
    Blizzard doesn't reward "flakey people". If anything it's the opposite. There's far more grinds required to do anything than there ever was in the past, been this way since Legion. WoD was when they started to try milking the playerbase for $$$ by it being the first expansion that had a price increase and the first expansion that was "supposed" to be a year long for them to milk more money for new expansions faster. Players didn't like that and quit, players don't like the current design philosophy of the game, and I can't say that I blame them, I used to play this game 30+ hours a week back in Wrath, Cata, MoP, but now I can't be bothered because I have to do content I don't like to get into content I like and that was never the case. If I wanted to raid on 3 toons in MoP I didn't have all these arduous grinds to keep my character relevant, I picked up the Legendary Cloak chain and worked on it, now it's like you have to grind M+ to even get into a raiding guild because Blizzard has been dramatically overtuning the content since BFA for literally the top .0001% of guilds which comes out to roughly 150-200 players total. Then you have conduits, soulbinds, legendaries. Last expansion was Corruption, Cloak Levels, Essences, AP, ect. It just doesn't end... Flakey people are not the problem with the game, the problem with the game is that Blizzard thinks they have to tell you how to play instead of just letting you play the game the way you want to like you could back in the day.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  13. #533
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    Blizzard doesn't reward "flakey people". If anything it's the opposite. There's far more grinds required to do anything than there ever was in the past, been this way since Legion. WoD was when they started to try milking the playerbase for $$$ by it being the first expansion that had a price increase and the first expansion that was "supposed" to be a year long for them to milk more money for new expansions faster. Players didn't like that and quit, players don't like the current design philosophy of the game, and I can't say that I blame them, I used to play this game 30+ hours a week back in Wrath, Cata, MoP, but now I can't be bothered because I have to do content I don't like to get into content I like and that was never the case. If I wanted to raid on 3 toons in MoP I didn't have all these arduous grinds to keep my character relevant, I picked up the Legendary Cloak chain and worked on it, now it's like you have to grind M+ to even get into a raiding guild because Blizzard has been dramatically overtuning the content since BFA for literally the top .0001% of guilds which comes out to roughly 150-200 players total. Then you have conduits, soulbinds, legendaries. Last expansion was Corruption, Cloak Levels, Essences, AP, ect. It just doesn't end... Flakey people are not the problem with the game, the problem with the game is that Blizzard thinks they have to tell you how to play instead of just letting you play the game the way you want to like you could back in the day.
    Yes - and that is why MoP was so good?

    Do you know how confusing this community is with thier needs?

  14. #534
    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    Yes - and that is why MoP was so good?

    Do you know how confusing this community is with thier needs?
    I suggest you stay off these forums. The community of MMO-Champion, as well as the forum community of FFXIV are flakey as hell. Just reading some of the shit in forums will leave you baffled as hell.
    Be careful who you chat it up with here on these forums. If you are NOT for WoW and about WoW, people will report whatever you say and get you banned

  15. #535
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggressive View Post
    I suggest you stay off these forums. The community of MMO-Champion, as well as the forum community of FFXIV are flakey as hell. Just reading some of the shit in forums will leave you baffled as hell.
    Been there many times. Thanks for the headsup.

  16. #536
    Hoof Hearted!!!
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    I think part of why the WoW community, as well as the communities in just about every other game as well, comes off as entitled, is that they think they are right even when they are not. For instance, someone stating that something is a bug when it was something designed to do exactly what it is doing. You tell the person they need to submit their feedback in an appropriate place and they tell you it is a bug anyways, regardless of the facts.
    when all else fails, read the STICKIES.

  17. #537
    Elden Ring and Fromsoft is such a good example of this. They don’t cater to fans that complain about the difficulty. They simply just say “sorry”, and move on, and they are basically worshipped for this, and rightfully so. Blizz had their eye on money more than product quality, and it’s shown for a while now. The worlds in WoW should be built as things to conquer, not completely dubbed down to cater to efficiency nuts.

  18. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by m4Zzo928 View Post
    Elden Ring and Fromsoft is such a good example of this. They don’t cater to fans that complain about the difficulty. They simply just say “sorry”, and move on, and they are basically worshipped for this, and rightfully so.
    While you're not wrong about ER, it's not a good comparison to position a b2p single-player game vs. a subscription MMO.

    There are MASSIVELY different mechanics at play here. A single-player game can afford to just go "maybe it's not for you" and still turn a profit; while an MMO has to work extremely hard to offset costs all. the. time. - not just running costs like servers and support (both of which are massively more involved than in most SP games) but also ongoing development for content that is largely paid for by the subscription. All of which has to work in concert with existing content, balancing existing players with new players etc. etc.

    The task is simply very different, and there's a reason why games like MMOs tend to have much broader appeal than SP titles who can be quite niche. It's why New World added so much PvE (for all the good it did them) or why WoW is continuing to straddle the raider/casuals divide, not to mention the different forms of content between raids, m+, pvp, and so on. They HAVE TO or they go out of business.

    Now, you can argue degrees of course. No one is saying MMOs need to appeal to EVERYONE. But certainly they have a much more diverse audience than titles like ER or other Souls-like games, and that's not something they can just turn on a dime on if they expect to make any money.

  19. #539
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    While you're not wrong about ER, it's not a good comparison to position a b2p single-player game vs. a subscription MMO.

    There are MASSIVELY different mechanics at play here. A single-player game can afford to just go "maybe it's not for you" and still turn a profit; while an MMO has to work extremely hard to offset costs all. the. time. - not just running costs like servers and support (both of which are massively more involved than in most SP games) but also ongoing development for content that is largely paid for by the subscription. All of which has to work in concert with existing content, balancing existing players with new players etc. etc.

    The task is simply very different, and there's a reason why games like MMOs tend to have much broader appeal than SP titles who can be quite niche. It's why New World added so much PvE (for all the good it did them) or why WoW is continuing to straddle the raider/casuals divide, not to mention the different forms of content between raids, m+, pvp, and so on. They HAVE TO or they go out of business.

    Now, you can argue degrees of course. No one is saying MMOs need to appeal to EVERYONE. But certainly they have a much more diverse audience than titles like ER or other Souls-like games, and that's not something they can just turn on a dime on if they expect to make any money.
    Ah, but that is precisely my point. They played it too safe for too long. Of course running an mmo is different, my point was that vanilla, even BC, and to an extent Wrath presented a world in a similar way, not so much in a throw it at the wall, and if it sticks, it sticks method, but more a world was presented to be overcome, and the onus was on the player to figure things out. Every release after inched further and further away from this, especially once we reached post Cata with the Activation/Blizz merge. Today with addons, websites with full database integration like wowhead, and predictable worlds, systems, and gameplay. The systems in general has gotten out of control, it's like they decided more systems somehow equals more engaging gameplay.

    I think there may be a chance they've figured some of this out, because DF looks unique, and looks to be going back to the basics, and letting the world and gameplay be what drives the game. Rather then having to artificially pad the gameplay by adding more systems. I can only hope, because a world as big as an ocean but as shallow as a pool will be a failure. They need more content in the world, more often.

    Maybe the counter argument is they had to listen to players and dub down the game, but imo, perhaps the rise of the games popularity would be stunted a bit, but I think it achieves the same popularity for a longer period than what has happened in it's current product cycle.

  20. #540
    Quote Originally Posted by m4Zzo928 View Post
    but more a world was presented to be overcome, and the onus was on the player to figure things out.
    Ah, the grand quest to enter wowhead.com into your browser. Epic!
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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