Do you like Turalyon as a character? Is he particularly good or interesting?

[Feanoro]

@Super Dickmann @Khaza-R @Le Conceptuel
You're all discussing far more nuance than Blizzard is remotely capable of delivering. An afterlife expansion delivered by people who do not believe in one and sneer at the concept was never a good idea. An expansion about religion, particularly one that would be created by people hostile to it, would be a horrendously bad idea. If their management has even two brain cells, it won't be allowed due to the potential of offending vast swathes of a playerbase that's already on life support.

[loras]

Seems too flat of a character from what i have seen so far.
Better to keep him in the distance than draw him into the spotlight, as that would just reveal/emphasize his flaws.

So yeah, i don't really like him much from what we've seen if him in-game, though it's not quite active dislike either.

[Alanar]

I just hate that they will likely turn him into a tyrannical zealot. "Ooh, the Light isn't actually good" blah blah

Why? Its atleast a logical and far more interesting then being the same as uther and the like, but then 10 times more boring.

Its another guy with a elf lover.. we have seen that already, give him something stand alone to do, which would stirr shit up.

I really like the scarlet crusade idea with him. It has potential imo.

[loras]

@Super Dickmann @Khaza-R @Le Conceptuel
You're all discussing far more nuance than Blizzard is remotely capable of delivering. An afterlife expansion delivered by people who do not believe in one and sneer at the concept was never a good idea. An expansion about religion, particularly one that would be created by people hostile to it, would be a horrendously bad idea. If their management has even two brain cells, it won't be allowed due to the potential of offending vast swathes of a playerbase that's already on life support.

Unlike the afterlife religion always has been part of warcraft though.
And it's not like they handled that part poorly; the cult of the damned, scarlet crusade, twilight's hammer, church of light, the druids, etcetera are all not the worst part of warcraft by any measure.

While i share your hesitancy in Shadowlands' wake i do not think religion would be a particularly good or bad issue for them to take on, it'sjust that Shadowlands made their entire competence seem shaky at best.

Also do keep in mind that actual religious folk tend to just be very touchy in regards to, well, almost everything.
It is best to not give them too much attention; if they don't feel actively victimised their whining will fall silent soon enough as it always has (in absence of abused political power anyhow).

[Dellis0991]

Yes.
Because he's an old-school, Horde-hating, Human, like Varian, and not this progressive, boring and cheesy human like Anduin.

"High Exarch Turalyon says: What's this? Horde invaders, with a paladin in command? What has this world come to?"

Turalyon is light blind, all the things that made him cool are gone. Now he is a just so damn bland.

[Le Conceptuel]

You're all discussing far more nuance than Blizzard is remotely capable of delivering. An afterlife expansion delivered by people who do not believe in one and sneer at the concept was never a good idea. An expansion about religion, particularly one that would be created by people hostile to it, would be a horrendously bad idea. If their management has even two brain cells, it won't be allowed due to the potential of offending vast swathes of a playerbase that's already on life support.

Admittedly, I'm not going to deny that Blizzard are dull as rocks, but are they anti-religious as you are asserting? I don't think we know the religion of any of the writers, so they may just have really, really screwed up writing an afterlife. The only thing I could take as anti-religious is the whole "Light bad" arc, and that's all based on some pretty dubious perspectives and very prone to reinterpretation.

[username993720]

Turalyon is light blind, all the things that made him cool are gone. Now he is a just so damn bland.

Could be. But, at least it's a return to old-school Humans.

[angrywithmygod]

He is certianly more interesting than Anduin is.

He has flaws and isn't perfect but is self aware enough to know that. He doesn't need to rely on magic bones to make decisions and uses his actual experience and knowledge to make decisions based in reality. He could be a far more interesting leader of the Alliance than Anduin as he seems to actually care about the Alliance and not so much about how the Horde views him.

I really hope blizzard doesn't just beat him with the Zealous crazy bat just to make Anduin look better. Honestly I wish they would go that way with Anduin becoming the Lightbound zealot as he falls back on the light to sooth his wounded soul. Not to mention Anduin falling for Yrel makes more sense considering his attraction to Draenei and his age.

Plus Turaylon even warns Anduin not to blindly trust the light.

Besides his wife who he is crazy in love with is a god damn VOID wielder, doesn't make sense for him to suddenly go all light crazy.

[sighy]

Admittedly, I'm not going to deny that Blizzard are dull as rocks, but are they anti-religious as you are asserting? I don't think we know the religion of any of the writers, so they may just have really, really screwed up writing an afterlife. The only thing I could take as anti-religious is the whole "Light bad" arc, and that's all based on some pretty dubious perspectives and very prone to reinterpretation.

Based on what they were doing the gist of it seems to be that while all the cosmic forces are unique they all have their benefits and flaws, from certain points of view. With that in mind it's only really a question of time, until the spotlight comes for the Light, which already has pretty well defined set of good and not so good characteristics.

- - - Updated - - -

He is certianly more interesting than Anduin is.

He has flaws and isn't perfect but is self aware enough to know that. He doesn't need to rely on magic bones to make decisions and uses his actual experience and knowledge to make decisions based in reality. He could be a far more interesting leader of the Alliance than Anduin as he seems to actually care about the Alliance and not so much about how the Horde views him.

I really hope blizzard doesn't just beat him with the Zealous crazy bat just to make Anduin look better. Honestly I wish they would go that way with Anduin becoming the Lightbound zealot as he falls back on the light to sooth his wounded soul. Not to mention Anduin falling for Yrel makes more sense considering his attraction to Draenei and his age.

Plus Turaylon even warns Anduin not to blindly trust the light.

Besides his wife who he is crazy in love with is a god damn VOID wielder, doesn't make sense for him to suddenly go all light crazy.

The problem with Anduin to begin with was that nobody had the balls to give him a story that actually challenged him, as a character. He never faced anyone, who was treated as even having a chance of having a point.

Turalyon can either rise above or fall into the same trap based on the writers do. I won't lie having his allegiences stuck between his family/people/world and the so called "Light Jihad" would be an opportunity, for some very solid storytelling, whilst avoiding the pitfalls Garrosh and Sylvanas fell prey to.

[angrywithmygod]

Based on what they were doing the gist of it seems to be that while all the cosmic forces are unique they all have their benefits and flaws, from certain points of view. With that in mind it's only really a question of time, until the spotlight comes for the Light, which already has pretty well defined set of good and not so good characteristics.

- - - Updated - - -



The problem with Anduin to begin with was that nobody had the balls to give him a story that actually challenged him, as a character. He never faced anyone, who was treated as even having a chance of having a point.

Turalyon can either rise above or fall into the same trap based on the writers do. I won't lie having his allegiences stuck between his family/people/world and the so called "Light Jihad" would be an opportunity, for some very solid storytelling, whilst avoiding the pitfalls Garrosh and Sylvanas fell prey to.

Which is why Anduin would be a better fit for a light zealot

-he has no family left to steer him back from that path.
-He has a unhealthy reliance on the light in guiding his decisions.
-He has a wounded body and soul that he uses the light to soothe.
-He is young and Blindly trusting
-He has always end up losing friend and family due to trusting his enemies.
-He has attraction to Draenei and believes they as a people are wise and trustworthy.
-The game has to Differentiate being Lightforged and Lightbound as not to demonize players.

I'm tired of Story's ruining original characters just to prop up their new ones. It was one of the major gripes about the new starwars movies.

[Super Dickmann]

@Super Dickmann @Khaza-R @Le Conceptuel
You're all discussing far more nuance than Blizzard is remotely capable of delivering. An afterlife expansion delivered by people who do not believe in one and sneer at the concept was never a good idea. An expansion about religion, particularly one that would be created by people hostile to it, would be a horrendously bad idea. If their management has even two brain cells, it won't be allowed due to the potential of offending vast swathes of a playerbase that's already on life support.

As we've talked about in the previous thread where this came about, I can't take that seriously because this bridge's already been crossed ages ago and hostile churches are a fantasy staple since the genre kicked off. The idea of the Light empowering you regardless of your position provided it's part of a doctrine has been in the game for ages, as has the potential for this going sideways. Ditto, the Light has invariably been presented as a positive force otherwise. Both Uther and Anduin's stints in Shadowlands hinge on how their faith grounds them where they have little else left, much like how both in the middle and now towards the end of this franchise the Light has been used as an all purpose injection of non-descript niceness to fix a bad race, first the Blood Elves, now the Forsaken. The real issue with the Church of the Light as compared to the cosmic force of the Light is that it's been a neutered non-entity who's tenets are half-canon and vague besides which has no red lines or expectations from followers beyond being an aesthetic choice signifying generic good. Funerary rites came up at all in a Shadowlands-tie in book.

The sign of none of the writers being religious or even just competent isn't that Shadowlands' exist, it's that none of the characters parse the implications of what it would mean that their belief system of what awaits on the other side is all wrong. It wouldn't be something the writer thinks they'll ever contend with and so they don't even consider it. Falling into that is just easier when that's already barely been touched upon.

[sighy]

Which is why Anduin would be a better fit for a light zealot

-he has no family left to steer him back from that path.
-He has a unhealthy reliance on the light in guiding his decisions.
-He has a wounded body and soul that he uses the light to soothe.
-He is young and Blindly trusting
-He has always end up losing friend and family due to trusting his enemies.
-He has attraction to Draenei and believes they as a people are wise and trustworthy.
-The game has to Differentiate being Lightforged and Lightbound as not to demonize players.

I'm tired of Story's ruining original characters just to prop up their new ones. It was one of the major gripes about the new starwars movies.

Anduin is currently going through reflection and we will see where that gets him, however i would counter that Turalyon is a lot more closely involved and personally invested, in this hypothetical situation. His position as the head of the Aliance, his shaky relationship with Aleria, his alegience to the Army of the Light put him basically directly in the centre of that conflict, where the choices he would have to make would be very challenging on both a personal and an ideological level. Besides that Anduin has been established to actively shun direct confrontations favoring compassion and a strong moral compass, which on it's own isn't a bad thing, but if you leave it go unchallenged for too long you end up with a boring character the story would be better off without.(Sylvanas pre-BfA was basically the ideal conterpoint, because she was effectively everything he was not and Blizz could have crafted a really good narrative around the ideological contrast)


I'd say that the more important distinction to explore there is between Dreanei and the Lightforged, because the difference between lightbound and lightforged is pretty clear. Consent.

I hear you on sacrificing of characters, but by the same token giving Turalyon a key role within the story, where he is actually challenged is the only real way to avoid nostalgiabait.

[Super Dickmann]

-The game has to Differentiate being Lightforged and Lightbound as not to demonize players.]

This is the actual biggest flaw of this story and with the whole strain of Turalyon turning into a fanatic. The argument is at present groundless. Turalyon is the most unprincipled wet blanket out there, who had to swap his principles three separate times to shill for other characters and who's wife ran off with a floating set of evil bandages to no comment from him. The only time he was a compelling, zealous character that could be turned into at least a Horde antagonist was Tides of Darkness, which was 15 years ago.

Тhe Lightforged manage to be even worse though, because while Turalyon was at one point interesting, the race he presides over were neutered from Day 1 of their existence. They don't differ from regular draenei in anything except aesthetic and despite being infused with the Light they're totally okay with their cosmic opposite. On a behavioural level despite being in constant war for thousands upon thousands of years under the guidance of Xe'ra who's all about converting everyone, they're totally fine leaving Illidan to it and later siding with void elves and warlocks in a terrestrial war because their leader, who's a human despite them having candidates who've got 24k years on him in experience, still likes the faction he's been detached from for a thousand years. They're a joke and only tied for the worst race in terms of lore impact because void elves also exist. The Lightforged being distinct from the Lightbound is the whole problem. The Lightbound is what they always should've been.

[FuxieDK]

Turalyon is light blind, all the things that made him cool are gone. Now he is a just so damn bland.

He was never cool; he was a hot headed bigot, now he a twat.

[Feanoro]

he was a hot headed bigot

How dare he not love the alien monsters who were slaughtering their way up an entire continent?!

Help, eyes are in danger of rolling right out of my head at this level of Horde alternate reality.

[OwenBurton]

How dare he not love the alien monsters who were slaughtering their way up an entire continent?!

Help, eyes are in danger of rolling right out of my head at this level of Horde alternate reality.

Between him and Alleria, Turalyon was actually the more reasonable of the two characters.

Turalyon did not have to ask what she and her rangers had done with the discovered orcs. He wondered if she’d started taking trophies. He’d seen her once crouching over a body, a savage grin on her face, and had been stunned by the glee she took in killing.

“Alleria,” he said quietly, “I’ve been writing you and you’ve never answered. You owe me nothing. I understand that. But if . . . what happened between us means you can no longer work with me, I need to know that now. I’m your commander. I--the Alliance--can’t afford to find out on the battlefield that you’re not listening, or not obeying.” He waited until she looked at him. “Do you have a problem with that?”

“There is no problem,” the blond elf answered sharply. “The Alliance wants every orc dead. So do I. We can work together on that.”

“That’s all we are to you now--a means to an end. A way to kill more orcs more quickly.”

“What else is there?” she answered. “Khadgar only found me because my band and I were hunting orc renegades in Alterac. I agreed to meet with him at Nethergarde because his messenger said it involved orcs, and I agreed to bring his summons to you for the same reason.” She frowned. “And the sooner we reach Lordaeron, the sooner I can seek out more of those green-skinned abominations and cleanse this land of their filth!” Her voice rose with passion and her eyes flashed. Some heads turned in their direction. “I will see them dead, every last one of them. Even if it takes me a hundred years!”

Turalyon felt a shiver run down his spine. “Alleria,” he began, pitching his voice low, “you’re talking genocide.”

The smile that curved her lips was a cruel one. “It is only genocide when those being slain are people. This is nothing more than exterminating vermin.”

He realized with a shock that she honestly believed her words. She really didn’t see the orcs as sentient people. She saw them as abominations, as monsters, as . . . rats. Turalyon knew he had slain his fair share of them--had done so at times with great anger in his heart at what they had done to his people.

But this . . . Alleria didn’t want justice. She didn’t want the orcs to pay for the crimes they had committed, she wanted to hurt them. To exterminate an entire race, if she could.

https://books.google.com/books?id=YH...%80%9D&f=false

[Triceron]

Yes as a legacy character, no in modern characterization.

I think the 'fill in the gaps with your imagination' left a better version of Turalyon in my mind than how he was realized. Right now I don't think this character has much nuance or depth. He's very one dimensional.

[Varodoc]

Yay lets start talking ourselves into hating another character before he even gets a real part in the story.

This is the attitude this forum has had with Void elves since Day 1.

Instead of giving this new unique and special race a chance, they started hating on it because "muh asspull!".

Even though this forum loves races like the Draenei who are actually a massive asspull, since originally the Eredar were not victims of Sargeras, but the ones who corrupted him.

People here are just afraid of change. So they are afraid of Alleria taking in the Void. They are afraid of a new race of Void-infused elves. They are afraid of Turalyon becoming a Draenei weeb instead of staying a generic medieval knight. People here are just afraid of change and development. The hatred that Alleria and the Void elves get on this forum is ultimate proof of that. They hate new and unique story concepts because they dare go beyond the same old "Medieval human vs. Green orc" narrative.

[Feanoro]

@OwenBurton A great example of how the Alliance has always been written as wrong any time they fight back. Where exactly is the hand wringing about the orcs attempting to slaughter every living being in the Eastern Kingdoms? Nowhere. The only thing you'll find is Orgrim worrying about the orcs being slaves. Not one blessed word about the orcs' goal of wiping out everyone. Genocide is ok when the Horde does it.

[cparle87]

Good man in past lore, Bit blind when it came to following Xe'ra as he did. And he didn't shy from doing what he needed to and was willing to take a stand as a man and a leader.

UNLIKE his friend Khadgar who hid in a tower and only now is gonna show back up...

We have yet to see if he will turn to the all follow the light without question and whether he would force others to comply.

Difference between them was Khadgar had friends on both sides of the faction conflict and didn't want to see, or be involved, with his friends killing each other, so he peaced out. Turalyon is purely an Alliance character with no ties to the Horde, in fact a hostile past with them, and it showed.

Just because the two are friends and members of the Sons of Lothar doesn't mean you can paint the two with the same brush.