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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2 View Post
    P2W means that those who spend real-life money are automatically ahead of those who don't. That's why it's considered a bad thing by the gaming community. It makes them win from other players in the aspects of the game that players consider "winnable" (in this case PvP or raid progression) without putting in their own effort.

    This is not the case in WoW. Even if you buy a Mythic raid boost, there are others who didn't who are already ahead. Actually, the very fact that you need to buy the boost and have someone else do the work for you automatically means that by buying it, you're behind. Nobody cares if you buy a boosted run to heroic Jailer because that in itself proves that it is completely doable for non top % raiders.

    The same is true for PvP. Sure you can buy the best PvP gear to make up for not playing, but you're not going to be ahead of anyone or beat them. You still need to play well or get boosted by others who are not P2W.

    Buying a boost to max level is the same. Sure you save time, but you don't actually win anything unless you were in a race to max level that somehow allowed buying the boost. The same is true for Tokens. All you're doing is saving time. Legendary effects don't even scale with item level, just the raw stats. So you can buy the lowest ilvl and get the same effect from the power. It really is nowhere near P2W.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You can think up all the lore reasons you want for gear being "legendary", but everyone having them still invalidates the gameplay aspect of having them be legendary/orange quality. Honestly the same is true for epics. At least the previous few legendaries had a legendary quest line associated with them that made you create the item over the course of the patch/expansion. At least the gameplay reflected the nature of the item.

    Grinding Torghast 3 times and then buying mats on the AH is not legendary.

    And no, I don't care that "in lore there is only one Maw Walker with legendaries". Gameplay > Lore, and that's coming from someone who can give a class on the WoW lore (pre chronicle rewrite) from start to finish.
    So what do you prefer? We go back to the old system of crafting Thunderfuries and Atieshes and Val'anyrs for others?

    I play Feral druid. Bar Atiesh (I did progress Naxx in original vanilla WoW, up to 4 horsemen, and I was resto at the time) there have been NO legendaries for my class-spec. None. Absolutely none. I've been a full time raider for 17 years, since I was 13 years old in 2004. Yet, even though my loyalty and consistency as a player DID put me in the pool of players that the whole guild agreed deserved a legendary, guess what. Bears/Cats never got one. We got TF, Hand of Rag, Atiesh in vanilla, Warglaives and Thoridal in Burning Crusade, Valanyr and Shadowmourne in Wrath. In Cataclysm, we FINALLY got a legendary that casters could use after all those fucking melee weapons...and guess what. It's for Moonkins. Not bears. You don't really ask your guild's main tank, who has been tanking for your guild for 3 years straight to reroll moonkin now, do you? Oh we also got Fangs of the Father, rogue only daggers in the final patch cause noone was playing Rogue (look it up, that's why they were added).

    For me the best system was MOP. An epic questline that spanned the whole expansion. With multiple parts too. First we had the Sha-Touched Gem that gave insane stats and we put it in the weapons from Heart of Fear/Terrace of the Endless Spring weapons. Then we got the insane meta-gem that we put in Throne of Thunder helmets. Lastly, we finally got our cloaks for the final patch. It was glorious. I loved the fact I actually, finally, got my first legendary, after being a consistent raider, a loyal guildie and one of the many that was simply watching/helping others craft THEIR legendaries, FOR FOUR EXPANSIONS IN A FUCKING ROW. I healed my way through Molten Core up until Naxxramas and tanked my way from Karazhan up until today. I deserved a legendary just as much as all those others guildies/fellow raiders who got theirs when they were current - there was just never a legendary for bears.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by glowpipe View Post
    The items are still worn by every single max level player. The items were litteraly added to the game to fill a void blizzard created. Lore matters little in this case and wasn't my point either
    Read my statement above.
    Last edited by Dalinos; 2022-05-09 at 07:07 PM.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    So what do you prefer? We go back to the old system of crafting Thunderfuries and Atieshes and Val'anyrs for others?

    I play Feral druid. Bar Atiesh (I did progress Naxx in original vanilla WoW, up to 4 horsemen, and I was resto at the time) there have been NO legendaries for my class-spec. None. Absolutely none. I've been a full time raider for 17 years, since I was 13 years old in 2004. Yet, even though my loyalty and consistency as a player DID put me in the pool of players that the whole guild agreed deserved a legendary, guess what. Bears/Cats never got one. We got TF, Hand of Rag, Atiesh in vanilla, Warglaives and Thoridal in Burning Crusade, Valanyr and Shadowmourne in Wrath. In Cataclysm, we FINALLY got a legendary that casters could use after all those fucking melee weapons...and guess what. It's for Moonkins. Not bears. You don't really ask your guild's main tank, who has been tanking for your guild for 3 years straight to reroll moonkin now, do you? Oh we also got Fangs of the Father, rogue only daggers in the final patch cause noone was playing Rogue (look it up, that's why they were added).

    For me the best system was MOP. An epic questline that spanned the whole expansion. With multiple parts too. First we had the Sha-Touched Gem that gave insane stats and we put it in the weapons from Heart of Fear/Terrace of the Endless Spring weapons. Then we got the insane meta-gem that we put in Throne of Thunder helmets. Lastly, we finally got our cloaks for the final patch. It was glorious. I loved the fact I actually, finally, got my first legendary, after being a consistent raider, a loyal guildie and one of the many that was simply watching/helping others craft THEIR legendaries, FOR FOUR EXPANSIONS IN A FUCKING ROW. I healed my way through Molten Core up until Naxxramas and tanked my way from Karazhan up until today. I deserved a legendary just as much as all those others guildies/fellow raiders who got theirs when they were current - there was just never a legendary for bears.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Read my statement above.
    I rather the classes just be balanced. I think legendaries were never a net positive for the game.

    If you want to balance an expansion around a weapon go the artifact route were cosmetics are unlocked rather then power.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    I mean.... I can't. Because I'm not paying Blizzard per se. I'm paying the player.
    Well, no. That's just flat out wrong. Blizzard gets your $20 in full. Everytime .

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Well, no. That's just flat out wrong. Blizzard gets your $20 in full. Everytime .
    Yes? But technically from the player you bought gold from.
    What's so difficult to understand that Blizzard doesn't create currency or items?
    They provide a transaction service between 2 players.

    Just like they provide you with game time when you pay your subscription.
    Someone still has to make (and play for) the gold? Which you then use to buy items from other PLAYERS.

    Like... I give you 200k gold if you pay my WoW sub - we do it without the token and the auction house, just /w me.
    What's P2W about it?
    Or rather, how is Blizzard supposed to stop that and how doesn't that turn every single subscription game into P2W if that's your line.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-05-09 at 07:38 PM.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Yes? But technically from the player you bought gold from.
    What's so difficult to understand that Blizzard doesn't create currency or items?
    They created the token didn't they? Lol what are you even talking about. The token would be fine if you could buy game time with gold and that's it. But since blizzard wanted to make extra money they also put the token for sale and also allowed players to receive gold in exchange for paying irl money for said token.

    I pay blizz irl cash, I get gold. I pay gold to get player power.

    My patience with your inability to understand this very simple notion is wearing thin. You keep talking about all this irrelevant crap as if it somehow magically erases the fact that I can pay the game company money and receive player power back. P2W.

    If you don't give a shit about if a game is P2W or not just say that. Like me for example I really couldn't care much less I embrace wows P2W side in recent years I've been buying gold most of this expansion, and using it to buy legendaries and other things for my alts such as BOE gear and/or the occasional carry, but it doesn't change the fact that I am choosing to partake in P2W practices.

    It just is what it is man.
    Last edited by matheney2k; 2022-05-09 at 08:00 PM.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    blah
    I just don't agree with you.
    It has nothing to do with me not giving a shit or whatever trip you are on about.

    I can choose to use the service Blizzard provides or I can ignore it and give the money directly to the other player.
    The fact remains that everything you buy in this game is provided by another player.
    The token is a currency exchange token between 2 players.

    The other player buys game time - or at most, Blizzard games.
    He doesn't "earn" money, meaning absolutely everything is connected to the service and to the game and remains inside the game and isn't artificially created out of a vacuum.

    "It is what it is man."
    You buy player power from players, at all times.
    Even if you use the services these players provide, which are raid boosts or M+ boosts. That also is not connected to Blizzard. Unless you are telling me they are paying Blizzard to get game time and thus they can provide you with items?

    Blizzard isn't giving you shit.

    You are paying an overpriced subscription for someone, in exchange for gold from that player.
    Nothing more.
    The money you spend is money they don't get from that other player who bought your token.
    I can do that at all times, without the token as well.
    Is WoW "F2P" because the other player is able to buy subscription time for gold? After all Blizzard didn't get any money, right?
    That's just as asinine. It's connected to more than just your 1-2-3 description of the transaction. You are leaving out 50% of it just to make a point that isn't true. Why are you leaving out the second player even though he is responsible for 50% of the trade that occurs?

    I can literally go to a player right next to me and ask him to give me 200k gold, and I'll transfer either 15€ Bnet balance to him or maybe even paypal him shit.
    I can't go to blizzard, create a ticket, and ask them to create 200k gold for me, no matter how much money I offer them.
    The buyer is a player. You only get gold through a player, not Blizzard.
    If WoW is P2W then so was it before the token.
    Either you accept that or you don't, but that's the truth.

    At most, the token provided an official platform to do these "P2W" trades that were already possible before the release of said token.
    The difference being that gold and money is now used for ingame stuff and no longer used to make a "living" for players with bots.
    And the "little" (as in, a fuckton for basically nothing) Blizzard earns "extra" whenever someone wants to do this.
    They only earn as long as people want to pay gold for subscription time though... and you only get gold for as long as well. Big difference.
    The economy didn't change, same amount of gold is running through the servers as before. Same amount of items are created as before. No one got anything from using $$$ other than subscription time and a trade of ingame currency between 2 players.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-05-09 at 08:39 PM.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    I just don't agree with you.
    You do you then. I always notice the same BS when people try to claim wow isn't P2W and they always involve long ass convoluted paragraphs explaining that because birds migrate south during the winter wow can't be P2W or some crazy mental gymnastics.

    I wonder why that is lol

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    You do you then. I always notice the same BS when people try to claim wow isn't P2W and they always involve long ass convoluted paragraphs explaining that because birds migrate south during the winter wow can't be P2W or some crazy mental gymnastics.

    I wonder why that is lol
    I mean, I explained it in 1 short one, but you somehow are not able to understand it. So don't blame me for "mental gymnastics" when you can't comprehend it the simple way.

    I wonder why people have to go and explain it in more detail to you

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Runicblood View Post
    I realize it was an attempt to step away from the RNG legendaries that we had before, but the way it turned out to be was more a cash grab for blizzard.

    Crafters profit is near 0 with all expensive secondary mats needed, while buyers have to be spending anywhere from 40-200k just to be relevant with their maxed leggo slots for one spec. If we start getting into off specs and alts, i think people are easily spending towards 1m gold.

    How do average players make that much money? They don't, they buy tokens.

    I'm already spending 15 euros a month to play, i dont really want to be spending another 20 euros to equip my must-have gear.

    inb4, yeah have fun grinding out that gold with dailies. Nobody got time for that.
    I mean I made almost 50mil gold in shadowlands selling base leggo items. I think it worked out. I know a lot of others who made a lot of gold.

  10. #250
    For me, yes, it's a failure. Right now, I want to resub but still can't decide which class to play and which legendary to craft, just because it's tied to crafting and I'm very limited on gold.
    Last edited by Schmilblick; 2022-05-09 at 09:12 PM.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    I mean, I explained it in 1 short one, but you somehow are not able to understand it. So don't blame me for "mental gymnastics" when you can't comprehend it the simple way.

    I wonder why people have to go and explain it in more detail to you
    You're divorced from reality, but that's okay.

    If I can pay the game company irl money and receive player power back in said game, it's P2W. Period.

    No amount of small novels you decide to write me can't change that simple fact.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    snip
    Lets say a game exists where no loot is bound to players. You load your credit card and bank account details onto your game account. Now, once in game, you just buy items directly from other players and they receive money in their account for said items. What you are saying, is this game is NOT P2W?
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Nobody uses Online forums anymore.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    I rather the classes just be balanced. I think legendaries were never a net positive for the game.

    If you want to balance an expansion around a weapon go the artifact route were cosmetics are unlocked rather then power.
    That hardly answers the question posed in my post eh. I too agree that the Legion artifact weapons were AMAZING. For the FIRST TIME IN WOWS HISTORY, my Guardian Druid could legitimately use Fist Weapons like the Druid of the Claw unit does in Warcraft 3. I still mog any weapon I get to Claws of Ursoc - why wouldn't I? They are the literal claws of a fucking bear god. And I'm a bear.

    All that is, however, beside the point. I completely agree with "Legendaries for everyone as long as you earn them" because I spent EIGHT FULL YEARS, from 2004 to 2012 (MoP release) hardcore raiding, clearing all content the game had to offer, and I was never rewarded with a Legendary, not because my guild/group didn't want to, but because NO FUCKING LEGENDARY EXISTED FOR BEAR DRUIDS.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    You're divorced from reality, but that's okay.

    If I can pay the game company irl money and receive player power back in said game, it's P2W. Period.

    No amount of small novels you decide to write me can't change that simple fact.
    Sure, but that's not the case in WoW.
    Good thing we agree.
    Or are you implying because you pay for your sub, it's P2W, since you are ignoring like half of the things involved and dumbed it down to basically that level? Silly.


    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Lets say a game exists where no loot is bound to players. You load your credit card and bank account details onto your game account. Now, once in game, you just buy items directly from other players and they receive money in their account for said items. What you are saying, is this game is NOT P2W?
    Since everything is player generated, pretty much yeah.
    I mean, it's far removed from how it actually is in WoW but I get what you are pointing at.
    All you are saying is that the game has an *official* platform for players to interact with RMT.
    The game design doesn't change in the slightest just because it is there or not (unless they changed it for that purpose, which they did not).
    Inofficial or not.

    Diablo2 for example is not really P2W in my opinion, just because instead of shady 3rd party sites, you now could theoretically use an official one.
    In WoWs case, you can't even do anything with the money other than buying store products or game time if you use the official platform. That's important as well.

    I mean... Diablo 2 is a good example actually. Do you consider it P2W? The way it is right now? Nothing added to it?
    If so, did you always consider it to be that way?
    And isn't it weird that no one says or said it's P2W?
    Or Diablo 3? Without the RMAH?
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-05-09 at 09:41 PM.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Sure, but that's not the case in WoW.
    Good thing we agree.
    Or are you implying because you pay for your sub, it's P2W? Silly.




    Since everything is player generated, pretty much yeah.
    I mean, it's far removed from how it is actually in WoW but I get what you are pointing at.
    All you are saying is that the game has a platform for players to interact with RMT.

    Diablo2 for example is not really P2W in my opinion, just because instead of shady 3rd party sites, you now use an official one.
    In WoWs case, you can't even do anything with the money other than buying store products or game time. That's important as well.
    But...my dude. Hold up. I don't 100% agree that WoW is P2W because you literally can't buy armour sets (with stats) that don't exist in game from the blizzardstore.

    HOWEVER.

    Step 1) pay 100 euroes to buy 5 WoW tokens
    Step 2) Sell 5 WoW tokens on the AH, get a million gold+
    Step 3) Find the Raid Leader of the best Mythic guild on the server and offer 1M gold for a full 11/11 Sepulcher clear
    Step 4) Join the raid, trade the leader, give the 1,000,000 gold
    Step 5) Congrats, you have now cleared Mythic Sepulcher.

    Is a sequence of events that can happen. Sure, you're paying a player, not blizzard directly, and sure, it's players clearing the raid for you, not blizz GMs. But you can't deny that that exact sequence of events can and does happen. So you can see why people consider this P2W I hope.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Since everything is player generated, pretty much yeah.
    I mean, it's far removed from how it actually is in WoW but I get what you are pointing at.
    All you are saying is that the game has an *official* platform for players to interact with RMT.
    The game design doesn't change in the slightest just because it is there or not (unless they changed it for that purpose, which they did not).
    Inofficial or not.

    Diablo2 for example is not really P2W in my opinion, just because instead of shady 3rd party sites, you now could theoretically use an official one.
    In WoWs case, you can't even do anything with the money other than buying store products or game time if you use the official platform. That's important as well.

    I mean... Diablo 2 is a good example actually. Do you consider it P2W? The way it is right now? Nothing added to it?
    So just to be super clear - a game where you can buy the most powerful gear in the game, with cash, is NOT P2W?
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Nobody uses Online forums anymore.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So just to be super clear - a game where you can buy the most powerful gear in the game, with cash, is NOT P2W?
    No.
    I don't consider D2 or D3 P2W. Where I can do exactly that at this moment with official tools
    Just no token involved, but real money through real account information through battle net.

    Actually, just about no one does.



    But...my dude. Hold up. I don't 100% agree that WoW is P2W because you literally can't buy armour sets (with stats) that don't exist in game from the blizzardstore.

    HOWEVER.

    Step 1) pay 100 euroes to buy 5 WoW tokens
    Step 2) Sell 5 WoW tokens on the AH, get a million gold+
    Step 3) Find the Raid Leader of the best Mythic guild on the server and offer 1M gold for a full 11/11 Sepulcher clear
    Step 4) Join the raid, trade the leader, give the 1,000,000 gold
    Step 5) Congrats, you have now cleared Mythic Sepulcher.

    Is a sequence of events that can happen. Sure, you're paying a player, not blizzard directly, and sure, it's players clearing the raid for you, not blizz GMs. But you can't deny that that exact sequence of events can and does happen. So you can see why people consider this P2W I hope.
    Again, this applies to just about every other game you can think off.
    It was never a discussion before the WoW Token became a thing. That's the point.
    The WoW token is a way to make the same thing happen "easier". It didn't enable it, nor did it implement it.

    If I could use that cash to "generate" something, than that's something that wouldn't have been possible before and that would've turned the game into something it wasn't before.
    Why is it that no one (as in at least 1 in 10.000) ever said WoW was P2W before the token?

    edit: why is it, that when I google "Diablo p2w" I get headlines like:
    "Diablo fans concerned that Immortal is a “pay to win” Diablo 3"
    When I can gift you Bnet balance right now for whatever item you just found with me in your group that is super good?
    Or I pay you 20 bucks just so you farm GR with me for 5h and I get all the drops - or something.
    I'll only use official tools provided by Blizzard to do all that.

    What's the reason, what is different? That it isn't as "targeted"? Does that make a difference in the principle of the matter?

    As for your example with the Mythic clear.
    I can do the same thing in Starcraft 2. Again, only using official tools provided by Blizzard.
    Someone can carry me to Grandmaster in 2v2 or something.
    But I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are talking about mostly loot here (and thus player power) and not actually the clear achievement/grandmaster rank or whatever. So SC2 - a game in which literally no one ever said anything about P2W - wouldn't fit anymore.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-05-09 at 10:02 PM.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    You're divorced from reality, but that's okay.

    If I can pay the game company irl money and receive player power back in said game, it's P2W. Period.

    No amount of small novels you decide to write me can't change that simple fact.
    Why does it matter if the RL money is going to the company that runs the game versus other places? I don't follow your logic on that. Either RL money matters or it doesn't. Saying your opinion is a fact doesn't make it so and end the discussion, especially when you're being illogical. It is not that I disagree with your objection to trading RL money for player power, it's that I believe you're making a very artificial and unwarranted distinction based on where the dollars go.

    Every game worth playing is P2W by a reasonable extension of the argument you're trying to make. Even if you're not paying cash for items, do you have a better computer or Internet connection or chair? Are you able to pay the AC bills to keep your room more comfortable? Can you afford not to work as much so you can game more? These things all give you an advantage that is based on your access to RL money. And long before the token, people were paying money either directly or to buy gold to buy boosting services. Clearly, WoW has always been P2W if any power from money is P2W.

    I would prefer boosting wasn't a thing. I would have chosen for Blizzard to be smarter and more diligent about punishing gold sales rather than just giving into it. But I don't personally consider people buying boosts to be winning and I guess that's the biggest reason I'm not angry about it and why I wouldn't say WoW is P2W. Sure, you may have the paying, but being a bad player with better gear isn't much winning in my book. And I do think it's a matter of degrees. If there is a continuum, certainly WoW could be less P2W-ish, but it could certainly be with a lot of games that are much worse in this regard. Part of that problem is Blizzard and part of it is the community.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    No.
    I don't consider D2 or D3 P2W. Where I can do exactly that at this moment with official tools
    Just no token involved, but real money through real account information through battle net.

    Actually, just about no one does.
    Explain the D3 system to me.

    note - please take more care quoting - nothing below the top quote was said by me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Nobody uses Online forums anymore.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Explain the D3 system to me.
    An item drops, you can give it to another player (who was in your group).
    I gift you 10/20/30/custom amount of $ via Bnet currency.
    Same thing, no one talks about it.
    Not quite sure if "ancient whatever" pieces are tradable, it's been too long. But the currency did exist for longer than that as far as I remember.
    Obviously, other services are possible as well. Such as GR200 carry runs for 3h / 10 times (or whatever the current number is)
    At that point it's basically buying "loot boxes" with hurdles from players. But how is that different from buying M+ runs. It's not like upgrades are guaranteed. I sure as hell didn't recieve any for 4 weeks straight even though I had a lot of slots in old +15 gear from last season.

    Same thing in D2. But here it's without any restriction whatsoever.
    You build your Enigma, I see it, talk to you, make you an offer. You accept. You give it to me, I give you 20$ Bnet currency.
    No one talks about it.
    Seems to be a non-issue.

    The token is nothing but Bnet currency, am I right?
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-05-09 at 10:11 PM.

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