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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    An item drops, you can give it to another player (who was in your group).
    I gift you 10/20/30/custom amount of $ via Bnet currency.
    Same thing, no one talks about it.
    Not quite sure if "ancient whatever" pieces are tradable, it's been too long. But the currency did exist for longer than that as far as I remember.
    Obviously, other services are possible as well. Such as GR200 carry runs for 3h / 10 times (or whatever the current number is)
    At that point it's basically buying "loot boxes" with hurdles from players.

    Same thing in D2. Without any restriction whatsoever.
    You build your Enigma, I see it, talk to you, make you an offer. You accept. You give it to me, I give you 20$ Bnet currency.
    No one talks about it.
    Seems to be a non-issue.

    The token is nothing but Bnet currency, am I right?
    How confident are you this is how it works? Are you SURE all loot in D3 is tradable with any player? Do Blizzard support this, or is it against the rules?

    Or, are you actually talking about buying a full loot carry through content, by paying real money - and again, is this supported by Blizzard, or against the rules?
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I like WillE just as much as the next guy
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    i have several gay friends at work, and i know at least 6 other gay people

  2. #262
    The Patient Chilela's Avatar
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    IMO, you're missing the bigger issue with it, that being that it effectively made running Torghast mandatory, and on a weekly basis before they allowed for catchup on legendary reagents at that. Overall, it was a net upgrade over Legiondaries, but they really needed alternate methods of acquisition.

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by Chilela View Post
    IMO, you're missing the bigger issue with it, that being that it effectively made running Torghast mandatory, and on a weekly basis before they allowed for catchup on legendary reagents at that. Overall, it was a net upgrade over Legiondaries, but they really needed alternate methods of acquisition.
    To be fair, i believe there needs to be SOME system of acquisition, so no matter what system they use - raids, pvp, m+, custom system like torgast - SOMEONE is going to feel left out and disappointed. What i personally DONT want to see is farming WQ and dailies and mindless content like that to suddenly start rewarding Legos. Im fine with it being a factor in the system - maybe you could slowly upgrade them or something, but killing 10 rats every day and getting a lego just doesnt work for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I like WillE just as much as the next guy
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    i have several gay friends at work, and i know at least 6 other gay people

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    How confident are you this is how it works? Are you SURE all loot in D3 is tradable with any player? Do Blizzard support this, or is it against the rules?
    All I need is your Battletag ID and I can gift you money.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo3/com...party_members/
    Reading that, I have to believe that the rarest and most powerful items are tradable (Ancient Primal or something is what they were called) - as long as they are in the group while they dropped. Just like how I can only get mythic items when the right ones are in the Vault this week or when they drop from "my Mythic carry run"-

    But you certainly gain playerpower anyway by getting pushed through Greater Rifts you weren't able to clear yourself and you'd basically "win" that way.
    You can upgrade gems, you get more powerful gems etc. etc.

    I can just buy *your services*, with my Bnet wallet I charged up. I'm using the official client. I just don't use a "platform" for it like the Token Auction house where everything is fully automatic... but that certainly doesn't define P2W?
    I can whisper you, I can know you, I find out who is able to do it and ask him... It's just an extra step. The game has chats.

    As for Blizzard's stance on this. I don't think there is any. At least I couldn't find it. Maybe you can?
    I can only find something about WoW.
    https://us.battle.net/support/en/sea...ce=all&q=Money
    https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d3...read/29304/107
    https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d2...n-item/32099/6

    There seems to be no stance at all, or no actions taken whatsoever. They literally talk about a third party RMT site on the official forums and there is no one saying anything.

    I mean, D2 is build around trading with other players as you can't get what you want if you don't.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-05-09 at 10:47 PM.

  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    No. P2W means that those who use irl money get an advantage in game and/or player power. You people keep writing me small novels trying to confusticate the issue here. What it means to 'be ahead' of any other player can be subjective and muddy the waters, which is my assumption why I keep hearing people who are defending P2W (or just outright denying it's existence) go on these long tangents in why or why not.

    Again, it's real simple.
    Yes, it IS real simple.

    P2W is when you need to spend money to be competitive. Simple, simple, simple. As simple as simple can be

    And you're still getting it wrong.

    We're not "confusticating" (sic) anything. We're trying to explain it in ways that even the simplest of folks can understand it. So really you have zero excuse. You're just being difficult for the sake of it. You're ridiculous trying to argue that "getting an advantage" is somehow more clear than "getting ahead". Nonsense. Both terms are equally ambiguous in a way that "gaining a competitive advantage" is not.

    So, no, no one here is "defending P2W". We're telling you that you don't know what you're talking about when you try to label WoW as P2W.

    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Now we can argue to what degree wow is P2W because there are surely more egregious examples out there, and wow isn't really all that bad in the P2W department all things considered in today's market, but to deny that it's P2W at all is just flat.out wrong
    Or, you know, you can just accept that there is a certain threshold at which a game becomes P2W. And that threshold is the point at which players become obliged to start spending money in order to be competitive. And by every reasonable interpretation of that criterion, WoW is nowhere near that.

    I mean seriously, what is even the point of arguing that WoW is completely benign P2W when you're simultaneously complaining about muddying the waters?

    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Your money goes to blizzard, not other players lol. Please tell me you knew that
    No shit Sherlock. Why do you think I said (in Italics) "effectively"? I even explained it by saying that "it (the token) simply facilitates the transaction between players".

  6. #266
    since mop the legendary systems have been a joke.
    mop: cloak. looked good, but did nothing interesting
    wod: ring. did nothing interesting and didn't even have a model
    legion: participation award due to everyone getting them. essentially an extension of the gutted talent trees and therefore as interesting (situationally), with the drawback of having to acquire them via rng, meaning that you're essentially down a tier in performance if you were not lucky enough to get your BiS leggo in the first few weeks.
    bfa: another cloak. see mop.
    sl: legion, with improved aquisition, but worsened progress experience due to having to constantly upgrade them via dumping a boatload of gold and and even more for switching them around.

    if everyone has a leggo, nobody has a leggo. might aswell make their respective abilities passive and turn the item into a purple. boils down to the same effect.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Sure, but that's not the case in WoW.
    quote
    You can say anything you want, as long as the token exists, the game is p2w. nothing you argument against it will change the fact. you are delusional if you think otherwise.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Every time someone tries to pass off their own opinion as a group consensus with "Can we agree that XXXX" it just boggles me. Can't you just be honest and write it as "Who here agrees with me that XXXX"?

    Then in before ass numbers, the claim that nobody actually earns money they all buy tokens, then the claim that the OP somehow is FORCED to buy tokens, then the claim that legendaries are inordinately expensively when even the highest ones aren't and the reality that the largest part of their power is available from the lowest rank.
    english no first language sory for bad titel, i try my best to translate from native tong, thank you for being understandable !
    edit;

    my mind is boggled by how many people are bothered by my wording. It's a way of opening discussion, man. "Can we agree that WHATEVER?"
    >insert pro or con arguments.

    Sorry that you feel that some random on the forums is trying to invade your mind or something by sparking a controversial discussion to see how so many people totally agree, apart from you few english post graduates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post

    But on the lower end of raiding, I just used a lower tier legendary. It costs you a few item levels
    Too bad that, on my server atleast, the lower ilvl pieces are literally just as expensive, if not more expensive.
    Last edited by Runicblood; 2022-05-10 at 08:21 AM.
    I 3d print stuff

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Runicblood View Post
    You can say anything you want, as long as the token exists, the game is p2w. nothing you argument against it will change the fact. you are delusional if you think otherwise.
    I think I made it pretty clear that this is not the case. You are delusional if you think the token introduced P2W mechanics.
    The removal and the introduction of the token will not change how the systems work in this game.

    See the argument made about D2/D3/SC2 not being considered P2W even though it can uses the same system etc.
    First you have to explain to me why these games are not considered P2W in regards to BattleNet Balance.

    The only difference is that there is no token involved, but you can buy the other "player", "title" or "item" with battle.net balance (real money) just the same
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-05-10 at 08:38 AM.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post

    Can I pay irl money to the game itself and receive player power? If the answer is yes (which it is in wow 100%) then the game is technically P2W.
    "No MY definition of P2W is correct!"

    It's called "Pay 2 Win", not "Pay 2 Achieve Power". Saving time does not make you win.
    WoW is objectively not P2W.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Runicblood View Post
    You can say anything you want, as long as the token exists, the game is p2w. nothing you argument against it will change the fact. you are delusional if you think otherwise.
    "If you disagree you're wrong."

    Why even make the thread? Go shout at clouds.

  10. #270
    It failed only because it was (badly) tied to professions and the leveling up was tedious as hell (as a crafter). If it was just a matter of you farming the needed resources and go to Thorghast and craft it, it wouldn't have been an issue at all (much like the tier crafting system is now, which works really really well).
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Runicblood View Post
    You can say anything you want, as long as the token exists, the game is p2w. nothing you argument against it will change the fact. you are delusional if you think otherwise.

    - - - Updated - - -



    english no first language sory for bad titel, i try my best to translate from native tong, thank you for being understandable !
    edit;

    my mind is boggled by how many people are bothered by my wording. It's a way of opening discussion, man. "Can we agree that WHATEVER?"
    >insert pro or con arguments.

    Sorry that you feel that some random on the forums is trying to invade your mind or something by sparking a controversial discussion to see how so many people totally agree, apart from you few english post graduates.
    The answer is obviously no, we cannot agree, because there are people who do not believe it to be a failure. "Can we agree", by its very usage, implies that the decision or consensus has already been reached.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    It failed only because it was (badly) tied to professions and the leveling up was tedious as hell (as a crafter). If it was just a matter of you farming the needed resources and go to Thorghast and craft it, it wouldn't have been an issue at all (much like the tier crafting system is now, which works really really well).
    Except making legos WAS just a matter of farming the needed resources and going to Torghast to craft it, I'm not sure what the distinction is here. That soul ash was easier to get than crafting mats? Soul ash was timegated weekly, crafting mats never were.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    I've done this simple arithmetic for so many people, I'll do it for you too my dude. How to farm gold without farming gold in SL.

    1) Daily Callings. Each one of these dailies takes literally 15 minutes to complete, since we can fly in all 4 original SL zones, and it is 9.0 content which means the mobs you gotta kill have between 8k-12k HP. These award, minimum, 2k gold. You get 7 of these per week. 7x 15 minutes = 1h45 mins per week for 14k gold per week.

    2) Mission Table. The mission table in SL is the most balanced we've had ever since it was introduced in the garisson in WOD. You spend 5 minutes when you log in and 5 minutes when you log off, to set it up. That's 1h10 minutes per week. The mission table awards anywhere between 1-3k gold per day, depending on which missions you've set. Let's take the midpoint of 1k and 3k which is 2k per day. That's another 14k per week.

    3) ANYTHING you gather while doing your daily callings and harvesting your mission table goes on the AH. That's another 5 minutes per day before you log off every night. Pop to your Capital, open your Reagent bag (yes you can set your bags for different purposes in the default blizz UI nowadays), go to the AH and start right clicking every single thing you have gathered/harvested in your daily adventures. This income can vary, so let's low-ball it at 1k/day for 5 mins per day meaning we're at 7k/week for 5x7 = 35 mins a week.

    In total we have:

    14k + 14k + 7k gold per week = 35k gold per week, for

    1h45 + 1h10 + 35 mins = 3h30 of effort per week.

    You heard that right folks. Dalinos' Shadowlands gold-farming method without farming gold. 35,000 gold per week for a time investment of three and a half hours a week. 3h30 mins is 210 minutes / 7 days is...you guessed it. Half an hour a day. For half a fucking hour per day you can have 35,000 gold per week.

    And the best part? You don't even do all this shit for the gold. The gold is a bonus. You do it for Reputation, you do it for Anima for cosmetics, you do it for mounts, you do it for paragon chests that reward their own mounts, you do it for Renown (back in 9.0 and 9.1), you do it for achievements, you do it for 50 different reasons OTHER than farming gold. You just...get the gold passively. 1 Daily Calling, if you're lucky with which one it is, can be not a double-dip, not a triple-dip, not even a quadriple-dip, but a fuckin grand QUINTIPLE-dip in the rewards you are getting. Rep-Anima-Mounts-Transmog-Gold. From 1 damn activity. With Warmode On of course, cause we want that juicy +25% resources when we farm.

    Now, if you weren't wasting your time on MMO-Champion complaining about legendaries, and you used your 30 minutes playing the game we all love, you would have no money issues in SL.
    Thank you very much for this post. I don't know if it was in this thread or another but someone was doing the whole "Evil ActiBlizz deliberately makes legendaries expensive to make us buy tokens cause no one can afford them without buying a token" angle and you put it so much more clearly and thoroughly than I did.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Except making legos WAS just a matter of farming the needed resources and going to Torghast to craft it, I'm not sure what the distinction is here. That soul ash was easier to get than crafting mats? Soul ash was timegated weekly, crafting mats never were.
    The need for a base crafted item. Crafting materials were really expensive and required a lot of effort to grind out the ranks for a crafter - which ranslated in huge prices as returns were abysmally low. It only fixed itslef in last patch when all this crap got basically nerfed/removed.

    The tier crafting station is just ways better because you can farm yourself the materials and base item without the convoluted crafting loop. The Soul Ash/etc part is just fine and wasn't really an issue other than being forced to go into Thorghast which was content not appealing to everyone.

    I'm just a huge fan of what they did in 9.2 and imho it's just how it should be forever onwards.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  13. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I don't know if it was in this thread or another but someone was doing the whole "Evil ActiBlizz deliberately makes legendaries expensive to make us buy tokens cause no one can afford them without buying a token" angle
    Not to mention that the token mechanism actually makes it impossible for anything to be reliant on the need to buy tokens. Someone still has to go out there and acquire the gold without tokens. Tokens are simply a convenience for people who just can't be bothered (for whatever reason, I don't really care) to engage in the elements of WoW that result in making gold.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Not to mention that the token mechanism actually makes it impossible for anything to be reliant on the need to buy tokens. Someone still has to go out there and acquire the gold without tokens. Tokens are simply a convenience for people who just can't be bothered (for whatever reason, I don't really care) to engage in the elements of WoW that result in making gold.
    The token represents low-hanging fruit that people can look at and blame literally any of the game's current design flaws on. It's easy to write a design choice off as "greedy Blizzard" trying to sell tokens. Can't raid? Well, obviously it's because Legendaries are too expensive. No, it can't be because I'm not very good at the game and die to avoidable mechanics or that I fail to log into the game to do even the bare minimum. It's the Legendaries that are too expensive! If I had the 291 Legendary I wouldn't stand in the floor poop and I'd parse 99th percentile on every fight. Greedy Blizzard just wants me to buy a token!

    (To note: The Legendaries this expansion were too expensive but in the example above it's clearly not the only reason somebody is failing to raid.)
    Last edited by Relapses; 2022-05-10 at 03:10 PM.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Aydinx2 View Post
    It's called "Pay 2 Win", not "Pay 2 Achieve Power". Saving time does not make you win.
    WoW is objectively not P2W.
    yeah, literally no game is pay2win then, because there's not a single game selling a literal "press to win" button.
    smh.

    p2w is broadly defined by gaining resources or power (direct or indirect) you would otherwise not have. even progressing at a faster pace is part of it, because you then have better chances to win against people not paying to accelerate their progression.
    denying that the token gives you any of that is pure copium.

  16. #276
    When everyone has them, they aren’t legendarys. Just orange crafted gear essentially.

    Exclusivity is half of what made real legendary feel legendary. When an entire guild decides to build X person that weapon over anyone else, etc.

    Exclusivity and truly rare items is something wow is sorely missing from an rpg perspective. About the only real “legendady’s” left are certain pets and mounts that are seasonal and suspect to FoMO

    When’s the last time a legendary felt legendary? The staff from firelands?

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    When everyone has them, they aren’t legendarys. Just orange crafted gear essentially.

    Exclusivity is half of what made real legendary feel legendary. When an entire guild decides to build X person that weapon over anyone else, etc.

    Exclusivity and truly rare items is something wow is sorely missing from an rpg perspective. About the only real “legendady’s” left are certain pets and mounts that are seasonal and suspect to FoMO

    When’s the last time a legendary felt legendary? The staff from firelands?
    For whats its worth, i much prefer the "legendaries as extra talents" system. Sure exclusivity can be nice, but personally i never minded much when certain tanks had Thunderfury and most didn't.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    To be fair, i believe there needs to be SOME system of acquisition, so no matter what system they use - raids, pvp, m+, custom system like torgast - SOMEONE is going to feel left out and disappointed. What i personally DONT want to see is farming WQ and dailies and mindless content like that to suddenly start rewarding Legos. Im fine with it being a factor in the system - maybe you could slowly upgrade them or something, but killing 10 rats every day and getting a lego just doesnt work for me.
    9.2 has possibly the best possible solution. You are rewarded cosmic flux by basicaly everything you do, you farm quite a lot of it just by playing and with no special effort and then you can even buy account wide stashes of soul ash/cinders for your alts. If you want, you can complete forget Torghast exist.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Not to mention that the token mechanism actually makes it impossible for anything to be reliant on the need to buy tokens. Someone still has to go out there and acquire the gold without tokens. Tokens are simply a convenience for people who just can't be bothered (for whatever reason, I don't really care) to engage in the elements of WoW that result in making gold.
    Someone made a comment in another thread about how the game absolutely throws gold at you for very little time investment, in the forms of callings, gathering, and the mission table, it was very good. I think they said something in the neighborhood of 45k a week for an hour a week or time played or something similar.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    The token represents low-hanging fruit that people can look at and blame literally any of the game's current design flaws on. It's easy to write a design choice off as "greedy Blizzard" trying to sell tokens. Can't raid? Well, obviously it's because Legendaries are too expensive. No, it can't be because I'm not very good at the game and die to avoidable mechanics or that I fail to log into the game to do even the bare minimum. It's the Legendaries that are too expensive! If I had the 291 Legendary I wouldn't stand in the floor poop and I'd parse 99th percentile on every fight. Greedy Blizzard just wants me to buy a token!

    (To note: The Legendaries this expansion were too expensive but in the example above it's clearly not the only reason somebody is failing to raid.)
    Check out #275 right below your last post. Bonus points using the "you're on copium if you disagree" angle.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    The token represents low-hanging fruit that people can look at and blame literally any of the game's current design flaws on. It's easy to write a design choice off as "greedy Blizzard" trying to sell tokens. Can't raid? Well, obviously it's because Legendaries are too expensive. No, it can't be because I'm not very good at the game and die to avoidable mechanics or that I fail to log into the game to do even the bare minimum. It's the Legendaries that are too expensive! If I had the 291 Legendary I wouldn't stand in the floor poop and I'd parse 99th percentile on every fight. Greedy Blizzard just wants me to buy a token!

    (To note: The Legendaries this expansion were too expensive but in the example above it's clearly not the only reason somebody is failing to raid.)
    500k for the what ever was the max ilvl during chains of domination was over the top and especially when you had to redo the same legendary to a different slot thanks to the dom sockets.

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