Can we agree that crafted legendaries failed?

[Relapses]

500k for the what ever was the max ilvl during chains of domination was over the top and especially when you had to redo the same legendary to a different slot thanks to the dom sockets.

If I'm honest, I don't think Blizzard intended for them to be as expensive as they turned out. I think they simply vastly miscalculated how the supply/demand ratio for the base items would pan out. I'd even go so far as to wager that their complete whiff on this is part of the reason they're slingshotting so hard back on professions in DF but obviously that's just a hunch.

[Deadite]

you can even buy account wide stashes of soul ash/cinders for your alts.

Where can you buy those? I really can't be arsed setting foot into Torgash. The 291's are cheap as chips on my realm so it is the other mats that are murder to get.

[Relapses]

Where can you buy those? I really can't be arsed setting foot into Torgash. The 291's are cheap as chips on my realm so it is the other mats that are murder to get.

Bonesmith Heirmir in Korthia. You pay a 50 Ash/Cinder tax but you can fully mail the resource via BoA packages should you desire.

[Deadite]

Bonesmith Heirmir in Korthia. You pay a 50 Ash/Cinder tax but you can fully mail the resource via BoA packages should you desire.

Ah cheers. I forgot that place existed. My main has thousands of Ash/Cinders it can never really use.

[Uvania]

i started on a abandoned alt this reset (last wednesday) that i havent touched since 9.0 in full green quest gear.

on the end of this week im at Renown 80 (catch-up renown 40 item), 242 ilvl and ive crafted 1x 291 lego from doing jailers gauntlet, ZM and torghast and cleared ZM storyline for ilvl 265 belt and ive also managed to get 2 piece tier set from the forge all in all ive been playing for 6-7 hours this reset and i managed to get all the gold i needed for enchants and that 291 ilvl item running the content i needed to do to get some gear, my 291 lego piece was roughly 40k.

how fast do you expect a new toon to get geared?

[Vaedan]

Ah cheers. I forgot that place existed. My main has thousands of Ash/Cinders it can never really use.

You can also buy stashes of Soul Ash and Soul Cinders in Haven for cosmic flux... I think at Enlightened quartermaster.

[Chilela]

To be fair, i believe there needs to be SOME system of acquisition, so no matter what system they use - raids, pvp, m+, custom system like torgast - SOMEONE is going to feel left out and disappointed. What i personally DONT want to see is farming WQ and dailies and mindless content like that to suddenly start rewarding Legos. Im fine with it being a factor in the system - maybe you could slowly upgrade them or something, but killing 10 rats every day and getting a lego just doesnt work for me.

Eh, yes and no. WQs and only WQs being as efficient as running actual challenging content definitely teeters on absurd, but it wouldn't hurt for it to be a minor supplement to other content. As much as I don't want to reference BFA in a positive light, I did prefer how Azerite gain was handled compared to legendary reagents in SL. Island Expeditions were the most efficient way to grind it, but it was felt much less necessary than Torghast did, given how many viable methods of AP gain there were.

[zysis]

In the immortal lyrics of System of a Down....

Advertising has got you on the run...

Carrot. Stick. Numbers scratched into the carrot... Sucker. Don't fall for it. Easy.

[munkeyinorbit]

Yes it is. It is trivially easy. You literally have months and months to acquire the gold.



I am not "defending p2w". I never have. And if the day ever comes that WoW does become p2w, I'll be the first to make a big noise about it.

This is not p2w. The only weird thing here is people like you who think it is.

Like it or not, people buying gold through tokens to pay for a legendary is P2W. When you play candy crush, you can pay money to buy things that will make you more powerful. Unless your trying to claim that candy crush doesn't have P2W feature then you are just being dishonest about wow.

[Raelbo]

yeah, literally no game is pay2win then, because there's not a single game selling a literal "press to win" button.
smh.

That is the most asinine thing I have read in a while. *shakes my head*

p2w is broadly defined by gaining resources or power (direct or indirect) you would otherwise not have. even progressing at a faster pace is part of it, because you then have better chances to win against people not paying to accelerate their progression.
denying that the token gives you any of that is pure copium.

I highlighted the pertinent part of it for you. By your own broad definition, WoW is not p2w, because it cannot be claimed that you would not otherwise have that gold. I'd even extend your definition (as do most definitions of p2w) to include a "without an excessive amount of time/effort". And even then WoW would still fail to meet that definition.

Gold - in the quantities that the token offers - is not difficult to acquire in this game. This is not just an opinion - it's a provable fact - based on the way the token system works. The fact that you are even able to buy a token is contingent on another player not only acquiring that gold, but being prepared to sell it to you for 35% less than what you're happy to pay for it.

Now sure. No one will deny that there a few similarities between what the token offers and a p2w. Just like there are similarities between a hamster and a lion. But they are patently not the same thing.

The only copium here is pretending that you actually need tokens to be competitive.

- - - Updated - - -

Like it or not, people buying gold through tokens to pay for a legendary is P2W.

This has nothing to do with what I like/dislike. It is simply about having an accurate and correct understanding of what P2W is.

P2W has, within gaming circles, a general definition. And a critical part of that definition is that winning/being competitive in the game is contingent on paying. Failing to pay places significant constraints on what you're able to achieve without going to extraordinary efforts.

Sure, in WoW you can spend cash to pay the gold portion of acquiring the legendary. But you don't need to. You can't even argue that it's even that odious to do it without buying a token. And the simple proof of this is that most players acquire their legendaries, in the same time frames, without resorting to tokens.

When you play candy crush, you can pay money to buy things that will make you more powerful. Unless your trying to claim that candy crush doesn't have P2W feature then you are just being dishonest about wow.

Candy Crush and WoW are 2 completely different games. The dishonesty going here is you trying to pretend they're somehow the same.

[Aydinx2]

yeah, literally no game is pay2win then, because there's not a single game selling a literal "press to win" button.
smh.

It's not a literally a press to win button. But there are games where you can buy items that are much stronger than any free items with a huge degree.
Those are pay 2 win, because anyone who isn't braindead will win using them.

denying that the token gives you any of that is pure copium.

You can get Gold in game without paying real money, so by your definition it is literally not "gaining resources or power (direct or indirect) you would otherwise not have". Literally the only way someone wouldn't get gold is by not playing the game. If that's the hill you're dying on then the subscription cost is also Pay 2 Win.

The time you save by buying a boost or not farming gold is also not pay 2 win. Everyone has a certain amount of time to play based on their personal life. The only way you wouldn't have that is when they don't play, which again would mean literally not playing.

On the topic of legendaries: You can easily pick up a profession and make your own. Even the lowest level one has the same legendary passive as the highest. All you'd be missing is stats.

And if you play so little that you can't get top-tier legendaries, then you won't miss those stats anyways.

[Kalisandra]

If I'm honest, I don't think Blizzard intended for them to be as expensive as they turned out. I think they simply vastly miscalculated how the supply/demand ratio for the base items would pan out. I'd even go so far as to wager that their complete whiff on this is part of the reason they're slingshotting so hard back on professions in DF but obviously that's just a hunch.

I'm not sure if it's the only factor, or the main one, but I'm it's a factor. They cost a fortune on my server, and really put a damper on gearing out off-specs and alts properly.

[Aydinx2]

Like it or not, people buying gold through tokens to pay for a legendary is P2W.

Legendaries don't make you win in any way. They don't make you beat a player in PvP or defeat a raid boss.
And you can get them without ever buying a token, so literally all the token does is save time. I don't consider spending less time in WoW as "winning".

[Raelbo]

When everyone has them, they aren’t legendarys. Just orange crafted gear essentially.

Exclusivity is half of what made real legendary feel legendary. When an entire guild decides to build X person that weapon over anyone else, etc.

Exclusivity and truly rare items is something wow is sorely missing from an rpg perspective. About the only real “legendady’s” left are certain pets and mounts that are seasonal and suspect to FoMO

When’s the last time a legendary felt legendary? The staff from firelands?

While there was certainly something to be said for those unique legendaries, let's not pretend that system wasn't without its own share of drawbacks.

- - - Updated - - -

Legendaries don't make you win in any way. They don't make you beat a player in PvP or defeat a raid boss.

Whether or not they make you win is irrelevant if you don't need to spend real money to acquire them.

And you can get them without ever buying a token, so literally all the token does is save time. I don't consider spending less time in WoW as "winning".

And to be clear. It means spending less time playing the game, not waiting longer to acquire the legendary.

[chiddie]

i started on a abandoned alt this reset (last wednesday) that i havent touched since 9.0 in full green quest gear.

on the end of this week im at Renown 80 (catch-up renown 40 item), 242 ilvl and ive crafted 1x 291 lego from doing jailers gauntlet, ZM and torghast and cleared ZM storyline for ilvl 265 belt and ive also managed to get 2 piece tier set from the forge all in all ive been playing for 6-7 hours this reset and i managed to get all the gold i needed for enchants and that 291 ilvl item running the content i needed to do to get some gear, my 291 lego piece was roughly 40k.

how fast do you expect a new toon to get geared?

Fresh lvl 70 with maybe ilvl 150 to ilvl 242 in 6-7 hours is simply impossible, even with someone carrying you through ZM. You simply won’t gather enough cyphers to make rares and WQ drop ilvl 242+ items.

[Kehego]

While there was certainly something to be said for those unique legendaries, let's not pretend that system wasn't without its own share of drawbacks.

- - - Updated - - -



Whether or not they make you win is irrelevant if you don't need to spend real money to acquire them.



And to be clear. It means spending less time playing the game, not waiting longer to acquire the legendary.

You don't need to use real money to acquire anything in this game

and, acquisition of things in wow sure as fuck aint winning.

anyway a 291 legendary is 15k.
Go do some callings.

- - - Updated - - -

Fresh lvl 70 with maybe ilvl 150 to ilvl 242 in 6-7 hours is simply impossible, even with someone carrying you through ZM. You simply won’t gather enough cyphers to make rares and WQ drop ilvl 242+ items.

sand circle mob drops 246 weapons
most rares have 236 drops, treasure gear is 236+

with 291/265 legendaries that's not entirely impossible. He's just more efficient than you are

[justandulas]

While there was certainly something to be said for those unique legendaries, let's not pretend that system wasn't without its own share of drawbacks.

- - - Updated - - -



Whether or not they make you win is irrelevant if you don't need to spend real money to acquire them.



And to be clear. It means spending less time playing the game, not waiting longer to acquire the legendary.

Yea I wasn’t trying to say the old system was perfection and flawless my dude. My guild in wotlk, for example, worked hard to get our guild healing leader the mace from ulduar and the day he gets it (no bs) dude quits the guild with burnout. It set us back weeks or more

I was just saying that when everyone is crafting 2-3 legendarys, they kinda fail to be legendary and basically just become crafted gear.

I prefer the older system just cuz it made them feel exclusive and rare, but it also only had like 1 legendary for tier total if that when, ideally, each class would have a shot at one per expansion.

[chiddie]

You don't need to use real money to acquire anything in this game

and, acquisition of things in wow sure as fuck aint winning.

anyway a 291 legendary is 15k.
Go do some callings.

- - - Updated - - -



sand circle mob drops 246 weapons
most rares have 236 drops, treasure gear is 236+

with 291/265 legendaries that's not entirely impossible. He's just more efficient than you are

Sand circle mobs spawn rate is ridiculously low. Not many chances he will drop a weapon in 6/7 hours. Probably he won’t even see one of the 3 up in 6/7 hours. And gl if he needs offhand also.

Rares have 236 but drop is not 100% and duplicates may occur quite frequently. Treasure gear is quite rare too. And then there’s trinkets. Sandsworn Gear is not even an option.

Seems VERY unlikely to me, sorry, unless there are all sort of astral combos like once every century or so.

It MAY be possible within a reset, but surely not in 6/7 hours total.

[kamuimac]

I realize it was an attempt to step away from the RNG legendaries that we had before, but the way it turned out to be was more a cash grab for blizzard.

Crafters profit is near 0 with all expensive secondary mats needed, while buyers have to be spending anywhere from 40-200k just to be relevant with their maxed leggo slots for one spec. If we start getting into off specs and alts, i think people are easily spending towards 1m gold.

How do average players make that much money? They don't, they buy tokens.

I'm already spending 15 euros a month to play, i dont really want to be spending another 20 euros to equip my must-have gear.

inb4, yeah have fun grinding out that gold with dailies. Nobody got time for that.

what do you mean failed ?

they were abslute succes - blizzard made hundreds of milions of $$$ from selling all the gold that was needed to buy them

ah you mean for players ? but blizz dont care about players anymore

[Ielenia]

Like it or not, people buying gold through tokens to pay for a legendary is P2W. When you play candy crush, you can pay money to buy things that will make you more powerful. Unless your trying to claim that candy crush doesn't have P2W feature then you are just being dishonest about wow.

It's not "pay to win".

I'll give you an example of actual 'pay to win'. Without giving names, there used to be a game around (I think it was a korean MMO?) where you could upgrade your gear to up to +10. But going above +5 not only required a reagent that very rarely dropped from rare and very tough monsters (but you could buy it in the game shop!) but it also incurred a stacking +20% chance per level above 5 to fail to upgrade, losing all your reagents. But there was a special reagent that would neutralize the failure chance, but it was exclusive to the cash shop.

That same game also had one mount available by acquisition through the game, that you're given early on. The problem is that getting up on that mount would lock your character in a mounting animation for three whole seconds, where you couldn't move or use abilities. The dozens of mounts from the cash shop would have you mount instantly and never locked you in animations. And were faster.

That game also had the best PvP armor in the cash shop, too. For comparison, imagine the best PvP gear you could get in WoW was "quest green" quality gear, but the armor in the cash shop would be the equivalent to Gladiator gear.

That is pay to win. Having everything available in the game, able to be acquired with in-game currency or through playing the game is not "pay to win."