Page 5 of 19 FirstFirst ...
3
4
5
6
7
15
... LastLast
  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    You can be decked out in grey gear and still do the mechanics properly - but that doesnt change the fact that if you switch out the grey gear for bis you avoided a 2% wipe. Your actual numbers dont really matter in lfr though so i guess thats where you are getting that idea.
    Except we arent talking about grey gear, we are talking about 1, maximum of 2 pieces of gear. there is "reasonable optimizations" and there is "missing 1 small optimization worth 1.4%". 1.4% dps on a patchwerk which will translate to even less on actual fights.

    but unfortunately a lot of players think if they get that last optimization, which is essentially the only one that costs a significant amount of gold, they will do better. you wont do better, you will still fail the same mechanics you failed before, therefore you are better off learning those mechanics, than getting 291 lego over a 262 one.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Runicblood View Post
    Can we agree that crafted legendaries failed?
    I don't think we can no.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Except you weren't silent you responded anyway with some pithy bullshit expected to impress people who love their own farts.
    So you believe buying an item off the ah is meaningful progression?

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    Except we arent talking about grey gear, we are talking about 1, maximum of 2 pieces of gear. there is "reasonable optimizations" and there is "missing 1 small optimization worth 1.4%". 1.4% dps on a patchwerk which will translate to even less on actual fights.

    but unfortunately a lot of players think if they get that last optimization, which is essentially the only one that costs a significant amount of gold, they will do better. you wont do better, you will still fail the same mechanics you failed before, therefore you are better off learning those mechanics, than getting 291 lego over a 262 one.
    You dont have to project your LFR mentality and mechanics failing on to me mate. You can keep that all to yourself. If you dont optimize your character, you dont optimize your character its as simple as that.

    You probably dont do m+ for bis trinkets either, or whatever else you can do to get more then 230 ilvl from ZM. Your mentality leads to 20-25 lower ilvl, less mastery of your character and much less impact in a lfr raid.

  5. #85
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    In my bunker leading uprisings
    Posts
    18,725
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    So you believe buying an item off the ah is meaningful progression?
    who are you to say otherwise? moreover it took time to get that gold one way or another.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    who are you to say otherwise? moreover it took time to get that gold one way or another.
    Or a wow token. Again is buying a item off the ah fulfilling character progression?

  7. #87
    The gold it costs is completely prohibitive. I am thrilled that there won't be more in dragonflight.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    Your mentality leads to 20-25 lower ilvl
    Continuously ignoring what I write means your posts have no merit. We are in a thread discussing specifically legendary upgrades which cost a significant amount of gold, not overall optimization of a character or gearing mentality and gearing strategies, try to keep up and stick with the topic.

    as pointed out and easily quantified for any spec/class, a legendary upgrade to 291 results in negligible upgrade which will not make a difference on a boss when you are failing mechanics as your failure is due to the inability to grasp and execute mechanics. I recommend that you attempt and refute that with actual arguments, rather than resorting to name-calling and baseless presumptions.

  9. #89
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    7,992
    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    Continuously ignoring what I write means your posts have no merit. We are in a thread discussing specifically legendary upgrades which cost a significant amount of gold, not overall optimization of a character or gearing mentality and gearing strategies, try to keep up and stick with the topic.

    as pointed out and easily quantified for any spec/class, a legendary upgrade to 291 results in negligible upgrade which will not make a difference on a boss when you are failing mechanics as your failure is due to the inability to grasp and execute mechanics. I recommend that you attempt and refute that with actual arguments, rather than resorting to name-calling and baseless presumptions.
    It's okay, everyone else knows what you're talking about.

    It's not even up for debate, it's what the best players say themselves...
    Last edited by Rozz; 2022-04-25 at 09:20 PM.
    Moderator of the General Off-Topic, Politics, Lore, and RP Forums
    "If you have any concerns, let me know via PM. I'll do my best to assist you."

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    Crafters have absolutely disgusting amounts of profit. Millions upon millions upon millions of profit. The problem is, to make any profit with legendaries you have to have millions of gold in the first place to max out all legendary recipes of your profession. And also you have to spend a lot of time relisting your stuff on the AH. Crafting is the easy part, selling is work.

    To your second point: yeah I kinda agree. Most players are notoriously bad with making gold. There is peer pressure to get the highest ilvl. Both facts might push some players to swipe their credit card. But at the same time organized raiding still is a minority activity and I don't think Blizzard actually planned the legendary system to sell token.

    They made a grave mistake not accounting for players who were rich in the first place and went all in into the legendary market, making it hard for everyone else to make a profit with it. Barrier to entry is how much gold you had before, no skill whatsoever involved. Just gold to level and time to sell. That is Blizzards fail.
    Exactly this.
    The first ones arriving and crafting legendaries are the ones already having big amounts of gold to buy the materials.
    They then create the object and sell them, getting more gold that they use to buy the competition and resell it.
    Eventually, they control the market, so you only can enter losing big amounts of money vending under cost.
    There's no point in losing that money, better to use it to buy you legendaries and call it a day.
    In the end, only the wealthy first arrivers made money with the system. Everyone else lose.

  11. #91
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    38,716
    I kind of prefer the MoP and WoD legendary systems - where a given legendary is something you build and power up over time as you go through the story, with different tiers of power depending on your progression through the end-game content. Mix this with legendaries acquired as rare drops from tier bosses (e.g. the Azzinoth Warglaives, Thori'dal, etc.) and I'd say you have a decent mix. A legendary shouldn't be both obligatory and difficult to acquire, in my view - it should either be a baseline item acquirable with consistent but realistic effort or it should be an unexpected and cherished (but still non-obligatory) bonus from particularly difficult content.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  12. #92
    Bloodsail Admiral
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    1,096
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Yes, yes it did... I was looking forward to crafting my own and such. But when I saw I had to create the same piece over and over to fill up a bar to learn next ilvl it killed the profession for me.
    This. I didn't even bother just bought the slot item from the AH. Not remotely engaging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I kind of prefer the MoP and WoD legendary systems - where a given legendary is something you build and power up over time as you go through the story, with different tiers of power depending on your progression through the end-game content.
    I would also consider the Artifacts of Legion that kind of "have it through the entire expansion and build the strength of it". Even more interesting than the WoD or MoP leggos just because of the visible gear. The WoD ring was underwhelming in that regard.
    Last edited by ChairmanKaga; 2022-04-25 at 09:36 PM.

  13. #93
    It was a colossal failure.

    It was a solid idea, but like everything else Blizz does, they managed to take something that could have been cool and fun, and they turned it into the worst chore they could possibly dream up.

    Its like they went out of their way to ensure not a nano-gram of fun could be extracted.

    How in the world Ion manages to keep his job when expansion after expansion are just colossal shit storms is beyond me.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Well, it suffered while you waited, so......
    LMAO. saw this and cracked up

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by pahbi View Post
    It was a colossal failure.

    It was a solid idea, but like everything else Blizz does, they managed to take something that could have been cool and fun, and they turned it into the worst chore they could possibly dream up.

    Its like they went out of their way to ensure not a nano-gram of fun could be extracted.

    How in the world Ion manages to keep his job when expansion after expansion are just colossal shit storms is beyond me.
    This, basically.
    Except perhaps the part about Ion, since systems like these are a team effort even if he is the one that is supposed to keep the team effective.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  16. #96
    Brewmaster Tiev's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Winnipeg
    Posts
    1,448
    I think the whole idea that everyone should be able to acquire a legendary early on in the game and balance everything around everyone having such legendary is a conceptual failure from inception.

    It dillutes the appeal of a legendary and simply makes it another must-have to begin raiding.

    Kind of like what Corollas are. In North America Corollas are every day cars, everyone can have one, so when you get it, you feel like you got something mundane. In South America Corollas are expensive, rarer, a goal to work towards, and when you get one, you feel good about your achievement.

    It's all a factor of how rare or difficult to obtain an item is and when it's too easy, the community takes it for granted. Making it craftable, using materials you can easily get out in the world makes it ordinary, so you're expected to have it. That makes it boring

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    I don't think any existing Legendary system is totally perfect. Each one had advantages and disadvantages but there are certainly ones that are better than others.

    Shadowlands gold sink and TBC RNG were probably the worst. WoD and MoP where everyone gets the same item were boring as hell.

    I think my favorites have been Vanilla (Sulfuras), Wrath (Shadowmourne), Cata (Dragonwrath and Fangs) and 7.3 Legion. Also, not a legendary, but Rhok'delar.

    So I would split it into 2 groups:

    1. Sulfuras, Rhok'delar, Shadowmourne, Dragonwrath and Fangs - I find these weapons super memorable. First of all, they're weapons and not a cape or ring. They look awesome and have incredible effects. They have extremely unique questlines, feel epic, and in some cases have pretty fun and occasionally challenging fights involved. When I did demons for Rhok'delar it was like perfect kiting required. The wait for the spawn wasn't a good aspect, but like I said, none of these systems are perfect. The grinds were brutal and probably unnecessary. I liked with Sulfuras you could get the help of your guild to get the materials to craft the base hammer, so instead of one person having to collect stuff every week from bosses like SM, DW and Fangs, everyone could pitch in to help. The other issue with this set up was... basically only a few people got a legendary, and in the case of Fangs... it was for one class. But as a rogue I can tell you the stealth mission and the questing involved was just such a great rogue experience, I don't think they could pull that off with a more generic legendary.

    2. 7.3 Legion - I liked that this made doing anything in the game exciting. There were so many options for each class you could mix and match pretty easily for the gameplay you wanted, especially after the vendor was implemented. However, because they just popped into your inventory and there were so many, most of which weren't even visible or had a common look, they didn't feel as epic as the above ones. But as a gameplay system they were really enjoyable and best of all, every class got legendaries. I think 7.3 might be the best system so far but I would make a few changes.

    Ideal system (imo):
    In game you are presented with 3 lost relics or unforged weapons or something where you can directly target a cool item, very similar to Artifacts. You have to do a unique quest and experience some lore to acquire pieces or the location of something to get the backstory. Then... there would be a generic material of great power, that would drop with the frequency of Legion legendaries, or can be purchased with a currency like wakening essences. It's just 1 material, everyone gets it. Then you use this material to unlock the item you've decided to pursue.

    Here is my example:
    The new expansion involves a mysterious magic called Ether. Ether randomly coalesces into crystals. Ether Crystal is a legendary item that can drop from anything in the entire game, just like Legion Legendaries, and it can also be bought with 1000 Ether dust. The dust can be found from World Quests, chests, rares, etc sort of like Wakening Essences.

    The other piece of this is, each class is given the heads up, like Artifacts, of a handful of relics that exist in the game. Each one has a different story and different unlock, but I would set it up in a way where the final piece you need is 1 Ether Crystal.

    So...

    Warriors, if they want the 2h Fire axe, need to find a bunch of materials, win over a legendary blacksmith to get their aid, and forge the base piece (like sulfuras). Then just need to apply 1 Ether Crystal to a gem slot in the Axe to empower it.

    Rogues have to track down a secretive weapons dealer, do a few assassination missions for him, then he's willing to trade his very rare, shiny pair of vampiric daggers for 1 Ether Crystal.

    Mages are after a staff and need to find out its location, collect some rare books and decipher a runic code. They find out it was hidden away in a pocket dimension by its last user, so after pin pointing the location they can set up a ritual. They just need 1 Ether Crystal as the last reagent to open up a portal to walk in and claim their staff.

    These are off the top of my head, but the goal is to a) target a specific item b) have it be memorable with lore significance but c) make the entire game exciting with the random legendary crystal that can drop from anywhere while d) keeping in place the wakening essence style system as a supplementary deterministic track that makes sure everyone will get one eventually.
    Pretty much how I feel about this topic.

  18. #98
    Much like Azerite Armor in BfA: I see what Blizzard was trying to do with crafted Legendaries, and I can respect them for that... But yeah, it's implementation was terrible. The idea of having a crafted Legendary that would require you to craft it dozens of times to rank it up and create a more powerful version - one that I assume Blizzard had ideally thought would be a guild activity - sounds great on paper... until you realize that everyone has access to this recipe, and that a lot of solo or small guild players are going to be left in the dust because of it.

    Crafted Legendaries are fine, but really only if they're done in the style of Legion's. Give us a questline to hunt for materials, along with the normal material grind, to create a Legendary Item that can then be upgraded through something like Torghast over time, that would have worked out far better - especially if they wanted to keep the idea of making it a guild activity and requiring a shit ton of materials to make it. Sure, a solo player or small guild might take longer to get it done, but they'd be able to make continued progress towards it (like the GW2 Legendary Weapons).

    The way the system worked in Shadowlands, though , just wasn't going to work well for anyone, even guilds that had the people to work towards crafting one.

  19. #99
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    38,716
    Quote Originally Posted by ChairmanKaga View Post
    I would also consider the Artifacts of Legion that kind of "have it through the entire expansion and build the strength of it". Even more interesting than the WoD or MoP leggos just because of the visible gear. The WoD ring was underwhelming in that regard.
    The Artifact weapons were a cool concept that could be iterated on, yeah. The WoD ring was an example of that concept, but I also agree it was kind of underwhelming. Artifact/Legendary gear should have an aesthetic quality to them in addition to the obvious stat boost, as well.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  20. #100
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Tralfamadore
    Posts
    31,999
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Or a wow token. Again is buying a item off the ah fulfilling character progression?
    If it means anything to the recipient then it's meaningful. It's personal and others don't get to judge how much or what it meant. Besides, progression in that sense is bought and sold every day with people buying runs and raiding guilds happy to be in business selling them. People pay money for things that have meaning for them all the time. I'm not arrogant enough to imagine I can judge them.

    EDIT: To answer the question posed in the thread: Crafted legendaries failed as a system for some. I'm pretty sure they worked for others. So no, I'm not inclined to agree.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2022-04-25 at 11:27 PM.
    "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game" — Soren Johnson (Civilization III/IV designer)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •