Can we agree that crafted legendaries failed?

[Raelbo]

I don't know if it was in this thread or another but someone was doing the whole "Evil ActiBlizz deliberately makes legendaries expensive to make us buy tokens cause no one can afford them without buying a token" angle

Not to mention that the token mechanism actually makes it impossible for anything to be reliant on the need to buy tokens. Someone still has to go out there and acquire the gold without tokens. Tokens are simply a convenience for people who just can't be bothered (for whatever reason, I don't really care) to engage in the elements of WoW that result in making gold.

[Relapses]

Not to mention that the token mechanism actually makes it impossible for anything to be reliant on the need to buy tokens. Someone still has to go out there and acquire the gold without tokens. Tokens are simply a convenience for people who just can't be bothered (for whatever reason, I don't really care) to engage in the elements of WoW that result in making gold.

The token represents low-hanging fruit that people can look at and blame literally any of the game's current design flaws on. It's easy to write a design choice off as "greedy Blizzard" trying to sell tokens. Can't raid? Well, obviously it's because Legendaries are too expensive. No, it can't be because I'm not very good at the game and die to avoidable mechanics or that I fail to log into the game to do even the bare minimum. It's the Legendaries that are too expensive! If I had the 291 Legendary I wouldn't stand in the floor poop and I'd parse 99th percentile on every fight. Greedy Blizzard just wants me to buy a token!

(To note: The Legendaries this expansion were too expensive but in the example above it's clearly not the only reason somebody is failing to raid.)

[Flaim]

It's called "Pay 2 Win", not "Pay 2 Achieve Power". Saving time does not make you win.
WoW is objectively not P2W.

yeah, literally no game is pay2win then, because there's not a single game selling a literal "press to win" button.
smh.

p2w is broadly defined by gaining resources or power (direct or indirect) you would otherwise not have. even progressing at a faster pace is part of it, because you then have better chances to win against people not paying to accelerate their progression.
denying that the token gives you any of that is pure copium.

[justandulas]

When everyone has them, they aren’t legendarys. Just orange crafted gear essentially.

Exclusivity is half of what made real legendary feel legendary. When an entire guild decides to build X person that weapon over anyone else, etc.

Exclusivity and truly rare items is something wow is sorely missing from an rpg perspective. About the only real “legendady’s” left are certain pets and mounts that are seasonal and suspect to FoMO

When’s the last time a legendary felt legendary? The staff from firelands?

[Amariw]

When everyone has them, they aren’t legendarys. Just orange crafted gear essentially.

Exclusivity is half of what made real legendary feel legendary. When an entire guild decides to build X person that weapon over anyone else, etc.

Exclusivity and truly rare items is something wow is sorely missing from an rpg perspective. About the only real “legendady’s” left are certain pets and mounts that are seasonal and suspect to FoMO

When’s the last time a legendary felt legendary? The staff from firelands?

For whats its worth, i much prefer the "legendaries as extra talents" system. Sure exclusivity can be nice, but personally i never minded much when certain tanks had Thunderfury and most didn't.

[Vaedan]

To be fair, i believe there needs to be SOME system of acquisition, so no matter what system they use - raids, pvp, m+, custom system like torgast - SOMEONE is going to feel left out and disappointed. What i personally DONT want to see is farming WQ and dailies and mindless content like that to suddenly start rewarding Legos. Im fine with it being a factor in the system - maybe you could slowly upgrade them or something, but killing 10 rats every day and getting a lego just doesnt work for me.

9.2 has possibly the best possible solution. You are rewarded cosmic flux by basicaly everything you do, you farm quite a lot of it just by playing and with no special effort and then you can even buy account wide stashes of soul ash/cinders for your alts. If you want, you can complete forget Torghast exist.

[cparle87]

Not to mention that the token mechanism actually makes it impossible for anything to be reliant on the need to buy tokens. Someone still has to go out there and acquire the gold without tokens. Tokens are simply a convenience for people who just can't be bothered (for whatever reason, I don't really care) to engage in the elements of WoW that result in making gold.

Someone made a comment in another thread about how the game absolutely throws gold at you for very little time investment, in the forms of callings, gathering, and the mission table, it was very good. I think they said something in the neighborhood of 45k a week for an hour a week or time played or something similar.

- - - Updated - - -

The token represents low-hanging fruit that people can look at and blame literally any of the game's current design flaws on. It's easy to write a design choice off as "greedy Blizzard" trying to sell tokens. Can't raid? Well, obviously it's because Legendaries are too expensive. No, it can't be because I'm not very good at the game and die to avoidable mechanics or that I fail to log into the game to do even the bare minimum. It's the Legendaries that are too expensive! If I had the 291 Legendary I wouldn't stand in the floor poop and I'd parse 99th percentile on every fight. Greedy Blizzard just wants me to buy a token!

(To note: The Legendaries this expansion were too expensive but in the example above it's clearly not the only reason somebody is failing to raid.)

Check out #275 right below your last post. Bonus points using the "you're on copium if you disagree" angle.

[Deneios]

The token represents low-hanging fruit that people can look at and blame literally any of the game's current design flaws on. It's easy to write a design choice off as "greedy Blizzard" trying to sell tokens. Can't raid? Well, obviously it's because Legendaries are too expensive. No, it can't be because I'm not very good at the game and die to avoidable mechanics or that I fail to log into the game to do even the bare minimum. It's the Legendaries that are too expensive! If I had the 291 Legendary I wouldn't stand in the floor poop and I'd parse 99th percentile on every fight. Greedy Blizzard just wants me to buy a token!

(To note: The Legendaries this expansion were too expensive but in the example above it's clearly not the only reason somebody is failing to raid.)

500k for the what ever was the max ilvl during chains of domination was over the top and especially when you had to redo the same legendary to a different slot thanks to the dom sockets.

[Relapses]

500k for the what ever was the max ilvl during chains of domination was over the top and especially when you had to redo the same legendary to a different slot thanks to the dom sockets.

If I'm honest, I don't think Blizzard intended for them to be as expensive as they turned out. I think they simply vastly miscalculated how the supply/demand ratio for the base items would pan out. I'd even go so far as to wager that their complete whiff on this is part of the reason they're slingshotting so hard back on professions in DF but obviously that's just a hunch.

[Deadite]

you can even buy account wide stashes of soul ash/cinders for your alts.

Where can you buy those? I really can't be arsed setting foot into Torgash. The 291's are cheap as chips on my realm so it is the other mats that are murder to get.

[Relapses]

Where can you buy those? I really can't be arsed setting foot into Torgash. The 291's are cheap as chips on my realm so it is the other mats that are murder to get.

Bonesmith Heirmir in Korthia. You pay a 50 Ash/Cinder tax but you can fully mail the resource via BoA packages should you desire.

[Deadite]

Bonesmith Heirmir in Korthia. You pay a 50 Ash/Cinder tax but you can fully mail the resource via BoA packages should you desire.

Ah cheers. I forgot that place existed. My main has thousands of Ash/Cinders it can never really use.

[Uvania]

i started on a abandoned alt this reset (last wednesday) that i havent touched since 9.0 in full green quest gear.

on the end of this week im at Renown 80 (catch-up renown 40 item), 242 ilvl and ive crafted 1x 291 lego from doing jailers gauntlet, ZM and torghast and cleared ZM storyline for ilvl 265 belt and ive also managed to get 2 piece tier set from the forge all in all ive been playing for 6-7 hours this reset and i managed to get all the gold i needed for enchants and that 291 ilvl item running the content i needed to do to get some gear, my 291 lego piece was roughly 40k.

how fast do you expect a new toon to get geared?

[Vaedan]

Ah cheers. I forgot that place existed. My main has thousands of Ash/Cinders it can never really use.

You can also buy stashes of Soul Ash and Soul Cinders in Haven for cosmic flux... I think at Enlightened quartermaster.

[Chilela]

To be fair, i believe there needs to be SOME system of acquisition, so no matter what system they use - raids, pvp, m+, custom system like torgast - SOMEONE is going to feel left out and disappointed. What i personally DONT want to see is farming WQ and dailies and mindless content like that to suddenly start rewarding Legos. Im fine with it being a factor in the system - maybe you could slowly upgrade them or something, but killing 10 rats every day and getting a lego just doesnt work for me.

Eh, yes and no. WQs and only WQs being as efficient as running actual challenging content definitely teeters on absurd, but it wouldn't hurt for it to be a minor supplement to other content. As much as I don't want to reference BFA in a positive light, I did prefer how Azerite gain was handled compared to legendary reagents in SL. Island Expeditions were the most efficient way to grind it, but it was felt much less necessary than Torghast did, given how many viable methods of AP gain there were.

[zysis]

In the immortal lyrics of System of a Down....

Advertising has got you on the run...

Carrot. Stick. Numbers scratched into the carrot... Sucker. Don't fall for it. Easy.

[munkeyinorbit]

Yes it is. It is trivially easy. You literally have months and months to acquire the gold.



I am not "defending p2w". I never have. And if the day ever comes that WoW does become p2w, I'll be the first to make a big noise about it.

This is not p2w. The only weird thing here is people like you who think it is.

Like it or not, people buying gold through tokens to pay for a legendary is P2W. When you play candy crush, you can pay money to buy things that will make you more powerful. Unless your trying to claim that candy crush doesn't have P2W feature then you are just being dishonest about wow.

[Raelbo]

yeah, literally no game is pay2win then, because there's not a single game selling a literal "press to win" button.
smh.

That is the most asinine thing I have read in a while. *shakes my head*

p2w is broadly defined by gaining resources or power (direct or indirect) you would otherwise not have. even progressing at a faster pace is part of it, because you then have better chances to win against people not paying to accelerate their progression.
denying that the token gives you any of that is pure copium.

I highlighted the pertinent part of it for you. By your own broad definition, WoW is not p2w, because it cannot be claimed that you would not otherwise have that gold. I'd even extend your definition (as do most definitions of p2w) to include a "without an excessive amount of time/effort". And even then WoW would still fail to meet that definition.

Gold - in the quantities that the token offers - is not difficult to acquire in this game. This is not just an opinion - it's a provable fact - based on the way the token system works. The fact that you are even able to buy a token is contingent on another player not only acquiring that gold, but being prepared to sell it to you for 35% less than what you're happy to pay for it.

Now sure. No one will deny that there a few similarities between what the token offers and a p2w. Just like there are similarities between a hamster and a lion. But they are patently not the same thing.

The only copium here is pretending that you actually need tokens to be competitive.

- - - Updated - - -

Like it or not, people buying gold through tokens to pay for a legendary is P2W.

This has nothing to do with what I like/dislike. It is simply about having an accurate and correct understanding of what P2W is.

P2W has, within gaming circles, a general definition. And a critical part of that definition is that winning/being competitive in the game is contingent on paying. Failing to pay places significant constraints on what you're able to achieve without going to extraordinary efforts.

Sure, in WoW you can spend cash to pay the gold portion of acquiring the legendary. But you don't need to. You can't even argue that it's even that odious to do it without buying a token. And the simple proof of this is that most players acquire their legendaries, in the same time frames, without resorting to tokens.

When you play candy crush, you can pay money to buy things that will make you more powerful. Unless your trying to claim that candy crush doesn't have P2W feature then you are just being dishonest about wow.

Candy Crush and WoW are 2 completely different games. The dishonesty going here is you trying to pretend they're somehow the same.

[Aydinx2]

yeah, literally no game is pay2win then, because there's not a single game selling a literal "press to win" button.
smh.

It's not a literally a press to win button. But there are games where you can buy items that are much stronger than any free items with a huge degree.
Those are pay 2 win, because anyone who isn't braindead will win using them.

denying that the token gives you any of that is pure copium.

You can get Gold in game without paying real money, so by your definition it is literally not "gaining resources or power (direct or indirect) you would otherwise not have". Literally the only way someone wouldn't get gold is by not playing the game. If that's the hill you're dying on then the subscription cost is also Pay 2 Win.

The time you save by buying a boost or not farming gold is also not pay 2 win. Everyone has a certain amount of time to play based on their personal life. The only way you wouldn't have that is when they don't play, which again would mean literally not playing.

On the topic of legendaries: You can easily pick up a profession and make your own. Even the lowest level one has the same legendary passive as the highest. All you'd be missing is stats.

And if you play so little that you can't get top-tier legendaries, then you won't miss those stats anyways.

[Kalisandra]

If I'm honest, I don't think Blizzard intended for them to be as expensive as they turned out. I think they simply vastly miscalculated how the supply/demand ratio for the base items would pan out. I'd even go so far as to wager that their complete whiff on this is part of the reason they're slingshotting so hard back on professions in DF but obviously that's just a hunch.

I'm not sure if it's the only factor, or the main one, but I'm it's a factor. They cost a fortune on my server, and really put a damper on gearing out off-specs and alts properly.