PvP item level suggestion for Dragonflight

[Sialina]

We had it in WoD (you didn't need to do arena to get the good pvp gear there). They removed to give it back as a "reward" to try and force people to do arena, because they weren't popular enough on their own.


The first M in MMORPG means "massively", so it's hilarious that you keep playing that card when trying to defend arena which is anything but. Note that nothing in "MMORPG" means "power progression". It's just some dogma that people derive from the term "RPG", when they kinda fail to understand why RPG were built around artificial power progression in the first place (it was to meet the technical limitations of simulating a world with rolls of dice rather than in a computer)

Arena doesn't belong in an MMO in the first place. Wow is a massive and open world game, and arena is anything but. It was created to try and bring wow into the esport scene in a misguided effort to try and reproduce the success that starcraft had enjoyed in that space, notwithstanding the fact that wow is just not that sort of game in the first place.

This is why arena is fundamentally at odds with what players want out of wow. It doesn't belong. This is why some people feel it should be the exclusive source of proper pvp gear, because they know arena can't stand on its own as something that a lot of people actually want to play.


You say "not rising to the challenge", I say "they didn't want to do arena in the first place". You'll have to do with fewer people who actually want to be here.

Thanks for making my point, PvP participation was at it's lowest point ever in WoD, so yeah, that says everything I wanted to say, except you said it.

[ClownPrincess]

Thanks for making my point, PvP participation was at it's lowest point ever in WoD, so yeah, that says everything I wanted to say, except you said it.

You're dumb as fuck.

[Sialina]

You're dumb as fuck.

Not even going to dignify that with an answer.
MMOs needs rewards, there are tons of games where you can develop PvP skills, they all succeed in getting you into your first game within 5 minutes, that doesn't work in an MMO.

[MakePvPGreatAgain]

Not even going to dignify that with an answer.
MMOs needs rewards, there are tons of games where you can develop PvP skills, they all succeed in getting you into your first game within 5 minutes, that doesn't work in an MMO.

You say you're not gonna answer, but then you do? Maybe he's right after all, just saying.

Who are you anyway? Can we get your credentials? Would it be possible for you to expose your characters and your highest rating achievement, just so we can actually believe anything that you're saying ?

You don't understand human psychology, there are 2 ways to make sure someone has fun doing something.

Do YOU understand human psychology? Did you actually go and study that stuff ? Or are you just considering your own perception which is a very small sample of the player base ? Understanding human psychology is not a simple task and there are way more than 2 ways to make sure someone has fun doing something. Who are you anyway to actually pretend to know what people find fun and not fun?

Rewards are not manipulation, they are just that, rewards. Are you honestly trying to tell me that there is this huge market for unranked BGs without any reward structure? Who do you imagine would play those except maybe once or twice?

Again, you have no idea yourself what is actually going on behind the curtains, unless you're working at Blizzard, and I highly doubt that. Where is you research for this? Are you a PvP community manager or just some random person on a forum? I honestly believe there are lots of people that just play unranked BG and don't really care about the rewards. I think the idea behind this is really just to be on par with other competitive online game. You love to bring the "Mmo" factor like it's set in stone, maybe it needs to not be set in stone, and evolve and change to adapt to players and new games coming out. I don't think anyone here can pretend to know what WoW PvP players actually want unless you had some actual data to show (which you don't).

Also, PvP participation in Wod was not entirely due to the PvP system but the expansion overall and the PVE content not being release soon enough. Lots of people who play PvP (in any form) are also big on raiding. Wod was disaster overall, you can't attribute the PvP participation only on the PvP system. Participation was overall lower in WoD, not just the PvP.

Please, tell us your background to backup what you're saying. Just making sure we aren't dealing with some close-minded individual, who thinks he knows everything simply by watching some random Twitch streamers and having a 1400 rating.

I just want to remind you that everything that you said here, is still speculation. You actually can't know the exact outcome of how Dragonflight PvP will turn out. There is a lot of overhaul and new management within the WoW team, devs and management. You talk in a way like you're so sure about everything you say is pure gold, but you seem to be assuming way too much stuff to be honest. Your experience is such a small percentage of what is actually the truth and reality, please tell me that you actually have something to backup anything that you're saying.

[Trend]

You guys can say "i dont think", "it doesn't seem that way", or whatever, but the problem is you're stating an opinion that is directly contradicted by the facts of how the system works. Its a math problem. Period. It doesn't allow for skill to matter past a certain point, because, as ive repeatedly stated, if EVERYONE was equally skilled, it wouldn't matter. You cant all achieve 2100 rating. Only 5-ish% can ever get that high. No matter how skilled they are.

This constant "bruh just git gud" shit you guys spew is the equivalent of saying "the laws of gravity dont apply to me", and then being turned into a smear on the ground when you try to jump off a building. Because the laws of gravity do, in fact, apply to you.

The system is a mathematical equation. It doesn't matter how good you think you are, math still works the same. 2+2 wil always equal 4, and not 5, wether you believe it or not.

I was not aware that Blizzard had ever released anything about ratings math / percentages other than what it takes to get R1/Hero. I am an engineer and I love math and I would greatly enjoy seeing any information you have access to. I always thought it was hidden inner workings and that nobody outside Blizzard could explain their jenky MMR systems and the inconsistent inflation it leads to. I would love to be wrong.

[Sialina]

You say you're not gonna answer, but then you do? Maybe he's right after all, just saying.

Who are you anyway? Can we get your credentials? Would it be possible for you to expose your characters and your highest rating achievement, just so we can actually believe anything that you're saying ?



Do YOU understand human psychology? Did you actually go and study that stuff ? Or are you just considering your own perception which is a very small sample of the player base ? Understanding human psychology is not a simple task and there are way more than 2 ways to make sure someone has fun doing something. Who are you anyway to actually pretend to know what people find fun and not fun?



Again, you have no idea yourself what is actually going on behind the curtains, unless you're working at Blizzard, and I highly doubt that. Where is you research for this? Are you a PvP community manager or just some random person on a forum? I honestly believe there are lots of people that just play unranked BG and don't really care about the rewards. I think the idea behind this is really just to be on par with other competitive online game. You love to bring the "Mmo" factor like it's set in stone, maybe it needs to not be set in stone, and evolve and change to adapt to players and new games coming out. I don't think anyone here can pretend to know what WoW PvP players actually want unless you had some actual data to show (which you don't).

Also, PvP participation in Wod was not entirely due to the PvP system but the expansion overall and the PVE content not being release soon enough. Lots of people who play PvP (in any form) are also big on raiding. Wod was disaster overall, you can't attribute the PvP participation only on the PvP system. Participation was overall lower in WoD, not just the PvP.

Please, tell us your background to backup what you're saying. Just making sure we aren't dealing with some close-minded individual, who thinks he knows everything simply by watching some random Twitch streamers and having a 1400 rating.

I just want to remind you that everything that you said here, is still speculation. You actually can't know the exact outcome of how Dragonflight PvP will turn out. There is a lot of overhaul and new management within the WoW team, devs and management. You talk in a way like you're so sure about everything you say is pure gold, but you seem to be assuming way too much stuff to be honest. Your experience is such a small percentage of what is actually the truth and reality, please tell me that you actually have something to backup anything that you're saying.

Yes I've studied psychology, it's mandatory when you do teacher training, so I've got a degree in that, how does your own credentials look?

The second answer to everything else you typed out there is that it was tried during WoD, and it absolutely cratered pvp participation. Can you tell me why you think it will be different this time?

What does my rating have to do with anything? Please explain yourself, are you some sort of elitist?

The rest is based off of blue posts, you know, the guys with the data, it's not my take on things or my opinion.

[nvaelz]

So the issue with SL PVP is the power of cooldowns, it's like they designed the combat mechanics around casual players wanting to be powerful right.

So lets say you're an assassination rogue right, you press your Sepsis button and your ILVL determines the amount of dmg you do with your 1 button press right.
Then you go back in time and you're pretty much tryin to keep up rot dmg like rupture, garotte, poisons etc and you're trying to get auto attacks in etc.
It might seem like the same game because you're still ruled by your kidney shot cd/dr etc.

So therefore the ILVL impact feels alot worse in SL bcuz the combat mechanics have been dumbed down, casual players won't recognize this change because it makes them stronger so they think they've improved in SL and are now more powerful players but actually the big cooldowns are carrying their potential.

I don't think players should be so dangerous if they're bad at the game, like a Necro Frost Mage is always dangerous they just press their Avatar and spam frost bolts and kill you with their super cooldown and it's not skillful and then you'll see like a good frost mage will be able to do dmg because they are better at pressing their buttons.

Or Unholy DK they press their abomination limb and just freeroll your face, literally just pressing all their cooldowns at once and winning.
And the reason why healers are fine in SL is bcuz defensive cds counter offensive cds and healers are just powerful in that regard.

Literally every healer is the same in SL.

So anyway I can't make my pov comprehensible but simply I mean that the ILVL disparity feels worse in SL because the combat design is so bland and evened out(every healer has divine shield basically) and every class has been balanced out to have powerful offensive cds and powerful defensives and it's sure some class identity left but it's less now than it was b4.

In DF they're kinda stepping back on this but not really, they're keeping all this SL style gameplay(vomit) but they're also speeding up non cd gameplay and proc gameplay is increasing again, so it's gonna be more action but casual players will still feel stronk when they use their autopilot cds.

Also a thing about SL is that your covenant, spec, comp, legendary really attribute to how you handle counters, and how powerful you are. Previously it was more about having correct stats, so class balance was way better, actually it's fine now but you have to play this meta game of changing ur covenant, comp, soulbinds, legendary etc every game you play.

So it's not really about skill in the game where your actions will more clearly determine the outcome, but more about how you have managed your "settings" previously to the specific encounters you face, it's just really lame.


One thing that really explains SL how lame it is, Rogues used to be more powerful if they played good, and they could get out of situations with their vanish, cloak etc, but now they also have absorb bubbles in stealth so they can't get outplayed based on their mistakes in the same way. It's a noob condom really.

The fact that a restealth doesn't break from dmg is so lame.