Elon Musk Buys Twitter

[Endus]

Ohh my fucking god...

You seriously don't see the difference between dealing with an actual ideological Nazi, and someone that LARPs as one for personal profit?

One will take his ideology with him to the grave, while the other will abandon it the moment the ideology will become inconvenient for then.

One you have to kill to get rid of, while the other you just have to pressure the right way to give up.

And they're both Nazis. That's what you're avoiding.

These aren't separate categories in the first place. They're each subsets of "Nazi". They're answers to the question "Why is X a Nazi" not "Is X a Nazi".

It's like the difference between a soldier in the Wehrmacht or an SS officer hunting Jews. Both are equally Nazis. The SS officer may be worse than the soldier, but again, subset of Nazi at that point.

Word. Have. Meanings.

So why are you trying to redefine them? You're trying to limit "Nazi" to only cover a small minority of historical Nazis, in ways that would act to forgive Nazi monsters like Adolf Eichmann. That's why I'm opposing this argument; you're giving succor to Nazis, even if unintentionally.

Why they're a Nazi matters a fuck of a lot less than that they're a Nazi.

It's like there's been a murder, and you're insisting that the serial killer who killed the victim isn't a "murderer" because assassins murder people and this guy's a serial killer. They're both murderers. They have different motives for murder.

[Gabriel]

Ohh my fucking god...

Re-read what I just posted. FFS.

And guess what. Ideological Nazis will hide when it's inconvenient to be exposed for being a Nazi just as much as the LARPers. That's why they still exist today: because yesterday's Nazis were just hiding their fascism, waiting for the right fascist leader to whisper in their ear.

No. Ideological Nazis exist today because we stopped killing them because we got sad for killing so many of them last time.

[PhaelixWW]

No. Ideological Nazis exist today because we stopped killing them because we got sad for killing so many of them last time.

FFS, it's like the incel argument all over again.

You think Nazis just pop up out of thin air all the time? No, I guarantee you there's an unbroken string of fascists training other fascists from WWII to now. It's like fascist "friendship" bread.

They just mostly kept their ideology hidden in closed rooms for half a century. There's a reason why this modern fascism is finding such fertile ground, and it's certainly not because it's a particularly persuasive argument. There are whole swathes of people who have been primed for it and are just happy not to feel the need to hide it anymore.

[alach]

Heil Hydra!

[Edge-]

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/do-it-ri...t-a-sieg-heil/

It's not a Nazi salute but literally nobody else will do it. Not Scott Jennings of CNN, who said it wasn't a Nazi salute, was challenged to do it, and then did not do it.

Please, MAGA folks saying this isn't a Nazi salute - record yourselves doing this at your workplace in front of customers/clients and post the results.

[Endus]

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/do-it-ri...t-a-sieg-heil/

It's not a Nazi salute but literally nobody else will do it. Not Scott Jennings of CNN, who said it wasn't a Nazi salute, was challenged to do it, and then did not do it.

Please, MAGA folks saying this isn't a Nazi salute - record yourselves doing this at your workplace in front of customers/clients and post the results.

I am fully convinced that this isn't even a case of delusion, where people legitimately think it wasn't a Nazi salute.

Everyone knows it was.

Everyone.

Well, maybe not blind people who couldn't see it themselves.

But everyone who saw it knows exactly what it was. A Nazi salute.

There's just some people who like Nazi salutes.

And that's the only difference.

[Gabriel]

FFS, it's like the incel argument all over again.

You think Nazis just pop up out of thin air all the time? No, I guarantee you there's an unbroken string of fascists training other fascists from WWII to now. It's like fascist "friendship" bread.

They just mostly kept their ideology hidden in closed rooms for half a century. There's a reason why this modern fascism is finding such fertile ground, and it's certainly not because it's a particularly persuasive argument. There are whole swathes of people who have been primed for it and are just happy not to feel the need to hide it anymore.

And this contradicts what I said how exactly? Nazis today exist because we didn't kill them all, and because we didn't continue killing them whenever they start congregating in large enough groups.

The situation is especially bad in the US because they didn't finish the job after their Civil War, and they let the South keep openly being racists fucktards, and that same culture then merged with Nazism in the past 10-20 years to breed the current MAGA tards.

[Vladier]

You think Nazis just pop up out of thin air all the time? No, I guarantee you there's an unbroken string of fascists training other fascists from WWII to now. It's like fascist "friendship" bread.

IMO, most of the time it's probably exactly just Nazis popping up "out of thin air". Some form of fascism has existed within human societal consciousness since times immemorial, it's just that it only took on a form that is essentially a fashion brand with the Nazis, and so became an easily replicable thing, with snazzy uniforms, an entire mythology, an entire meta-mythos consisting of various conspiracy theories regarding their seeming successes and "improbable" defeat, all calling to the primal fear of the other. It's a complex of viral malignant memes glazed with an oh-so enticing notion of a very poorly enforced taboo. You don't need an unbroken chain of fascists educating each other when the neo-Nazis can learn right from the source.

Perhaps we as humanity should have subjected that entire ideology and all its trappings to a thorough case of damnatio memoriae, leaving only the driest and most mocking of portrayals bereft of any symbols, just like we eradicated smallpox and left only a few samples locked in labs. And instituted a secret order of educated eradicators who would watch over the world to ensure it doesn't rise up again, just to be sure. For so long as it remains in open access it remains a cognitohazard that can easily spread to any antisocial asshole that allows them to bond with other antisocial assholes based on simple brand following.

[Gabriel]

And they're both Nazis. That's what you're avoiding.

These aren't separate categories in the first place. They're each subsets of "Nazi". They're answers to the question "Why is X a Nazi" not "Is X a Nazi".

It's like the difference between a soldier in the Wehrmacht or an SS officer hunting Jews. Both are equally Nazis. The SS officer may be worse than the soldier, but again, subset of Nazi at that point.

Because calling someone like Musk a Nazi is not as descriptive as calling them a psychopath that LARPs as a Nazi. Labels exist for a reason. If you gave me a jar labelled "Peak Nazi", I'd expect to find a tiny Hitler inside, not a tiny Erwin Rommel.

So why are you trying to redefine them? You're trying to limit "Nazi" to only cover a small minority of historical Nazis, in ways that would act to forgive Nazi monsters like Adolf Eichmann. That's why I'm opposing this argument; you're giving succor to Nazis, even if unintentionally.

Why they're a Nazi matters a fuck of a lot less than that they're a Nazi.

It's like there's been a murder, and you're insisting that the serial killer who killed the victim isn't a "murderer" because assassins murder people and this guy's a serial killer. They're both murderers. They have different motives for murder.

Because you said "now we should presume Dr. Philip Low is also a goddamned Nazi", because he literally said that Musk is worse than a Nazi.

And I mean... make that logic make sense to me.

Like... it's as if you said someone is a cannibal, and I said the person is actually a pedophiile that eats kids because it is a sexual thing for him, and then you started calling me a cannibal sympathiser for not agreeing with you.

[Polgara]

I genuinely don't understand how someone who has repeated behaviour that mirrors actions done, and beliefs of nazis, or white supremacists or what not, is somehow better labelled as not a nazi, but a narcissistic psychopath pretending to be a nazi. At this point the bottom line is wrong, Elon has entrenched himself enough to be a nazi, he may be a narcissistic psychopathic nazi, fair, but he's just not going to escape the accusations when we've been here before.

If I'm having lunch with someone and they throw out nazi salutes, or start talking about white replacement theory I'm not going to dance around it, lunch is finished they can fuck with the bill I'm fucking out of there; but I've also been video recorded, posted and "targeted" (wanna know what it's like to have police escorts to pick up children? It's awkward and not fun and still doesn't feel safe).

People wanting to "accurately" try and philosophize correct terminology for these pricks halt the process of just fucking exorcise them from society. You want to pretend to be a nazi with no context? Have a visit from law enforcement, and not a friendly one IMO, but hey maybe I'm just biased because I've had to personally deal with these naz- sorry, "narcissists".

[Endus]

Because calling someone like Musk a Nazi is not as descriptive as calling them a psychopath that LARPs as a Nazi.

"Saying I have a car isn't as descriptive as saying I have a 2015 Honda Accord".

It's still a car. The label's still perfectly fine. What the hell are you talking about?

Because you said "now we should presume Dr. Philip Low is also a goddamned Nazi", because he literally said that Musk is worse than a Nazi.

And I mean... make that logic make sense to me.

Because there's no point in protecting Elon Musk from accusations of being a Nazi other than defending Nazism. Either because Musk is a Nazi and you feel he needs defending, or because you think he's an embarassment to Nazism and must be separated from you.

He's still a Nazi. The same way a Honda Accord is still a car.

Like... it's as if you said someone is a cannibal, and I said the person is actually a pedophiile that eats kids because it is a sexual thing for him, and then you started calling me a cannibal sympathiser for not agreeing with you.

He's a cannibal. You're not correcting me at all. Why are you even inserting yourself to try and contradict me, in this hypothetical?

That is the point. He eats people? He's a cannibal. He may also be other things, because that's not an exclusive label. But he's still a cannibal. So why are you engaging that way? What point are you actually driving at? Because it is not that "cannibal" is inaccurate.

He may also be a pedophile. He may also not return shopping carts to the corral. None of that's relevant to whether he's a cannibal. Nor does his being identified as a cannibal in any way lessen those other labels. I seriously have no idea what the hell you're even trying to get at in all this. It's incoherent, like any one person may only have one single descriptor applied to them somehow, which is just untrue.

[prwraith]

Ohh my fucking god...

You seriously don't see the difference between dealing with an actual ideological Nazi, and someone that LARPs as one for personal profit?

One will take his ideology with him to the grave, while the other will abandon it the moment the ideology will become inconvenient for then.

One you have to kill to get rid of, while the other you just have to pressure the right way to give up.

Likewise, one you can expect to not get every single person following them killed in a suicide pact if their ideology includes giving a faintest whiff of a shit about their followers, while the other is fine watching the entire world burn to ashes around them if they can't get what they want.

Words. Have. Meanings.

If it walks like a goose, and sounds like a goose, it's probably a goose.

In essence it doesn't matter whether one is real or larping. If you're going to take on that persona you are as bad the original

[Endus]

If it walks like a goose, and sounds like a goose, it's probably a goose.

In essence it doesn't matter whether one is real or larping. If you're going to take on that persona you are as bad the original

I don't even think there's a meaningful difference to be had in the first place, in terms of "are they a Nazi" at least. Their motives and dedication may vary, but that's not the point of labelling them as a Nazi in the first place.

It doesn't matter if they're a Goebbels or an Eichmann, in the end. That's a footnote for the history books, not a driver of how we should respond to them.

[Elder Millennial]

Btw, are we sure it's not simply copied homework? A bit rewritten and optimized...

No. It's not copied homework.

It not just "thinks" different, in the sense that it reasons out its answers before checking them instead of starting from an existing data point and then trying to justify it (this is the reason why AI often "hallucinates" or makes up shit, because it's starting from a pre-existing erroneous data point it harvested somewhere), but it even uses hardware differently and is based on a different programming language than all the other stuff out there.

https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-in...amming-instead

The fact that it requires less processing power is one thing, the other big one is that the way it "thinks" tends to lead to fewer "hallucinations".

Think of it like this, if you ask ChatGPT or Gemini or Grok what's the value of Pi, they'll just regurgitate the information the previously harvested or were hard coded with, then if you ask them to prove it, they'll try to reason it for you. This is fine if you have the correct answer for the question from the start, but leads to nonsense if the original answer on hand is wrong. Which is why you constantly need more and more data to train the thing on.

Deepseek seems to first take the equations you need for calculating the value of Pi, it then does the math, comes up with a result and then it checks it against external data. If the two don't match, it will attempt to reconcile by trying different ways of getting to the value etc.

Superficially this should be the slower way to coming up with an answer, but due to how it uses hardware it does all this way more energy efficiently than other AI models.

It's also why it seems to "think" more naturally.

[Muzjhath]

The United States false "security concerns" is just going to lead us being far behind in terms of innovation. We cannot compete with Chinese cars now they are kicking our butts in other aspects. The babying of our lazy oligarchs who don't want to compete is only going to lead to our global downfall.

The hilarious thing about this is because capitalists built cars in China, and as a concession let China take the tech on their own as the prices. Thinking Chinese companies would never catch up at building cars.

[Malkiah]

You think Nazis just pop up out of thin air all the time? No, I guarantee you there's an unbroken string of fascists training other fascists from WWII to now. It's like fascist "friendship" bread.

side bar, but i'd actually say yes they do pop out of thin air all the time.
maybe not nazis specifically, but the same core structure exists in the world and when one iteration of it is destroyed another one pops up to replace it.
you're right in that an unbroken string of fascists training other fascists is why fascism in this specific form keeps on going, but i'd posit that if it wasn't this it would be something else, just as has been going on for the whole of recorded human history.

[Gabriel]

"Saying I have a car isn't as descriptive as saying I have a 2015 Honda Accord".

It's still a car. The label's still perfectly fine. What the hell are you talking about?

Because there's no point in protecting Elon Musk from accusations of being a Nazi other than defending Nazism. Either because Musk is a Nazi and you feel he needs defending, or because you think he's an embarassment to Nazism and must be separated from you.

He's still a Nazi. The same way a Honda Accord is still a car.

That's the fucking point. He wasn't defending Elon Musk from accusations of being a Nazi or Nazism itself. He was offering context for how Elon Musk thinks, but you flew off the handle the moment you read the words "Elon Musk is not a Nazi..." and ignored everything else in his post.

He's a cannibal. You're not correcting me at all. Why are you even inserting yourself to try and contradict me, in this hypothetical?

That is the point. He eats people? He's a cannibal. He may also be other things, because that's not an exclusive label. But he's still a cannibal. So why are you engaging that way? What point are you actually driving at? Because it is not that "cannibal" is inaccurate.

My point is that you are calling someone a Nazi because they said someone else is worse than a Nazi.

He may also be a pedophile. He may also not return shopping carts to the corral. None of that's relevant to whether he's a cannibal. Nor does his being identified as a cannibal in any way lessen those other labels. I seriously have no idea what the hell you're even trying to get at in all this. It's incoherent, like any one person may only have one single descriptor applied to them somehow, which is just untrue.

The point of the parable was that it is absurd to start accusing someone of being a cunt sympathizer just because you disagree about the degree of how big of cunt they are, if both of you already think he is a massive cunt.

[PhaelixWW]

side bar, but i'd actually say yes they do pop out of thin air all the time.
maybe not nazis specifically, but the same core structure exists in the world and when one iteration of it is destroyed another one pops up to replace it.

I'm not saying they can't, I'm saying they don't. But mostly because they don't need to.

Fascists are really only fascists when they organize. But again, these organizations don't just spontaneously create themselves. In almost all cases, they've existed for decades upon decades and have just continued, behind closed doors, to recruit like-minded haters and show them an ideology that caters to their hatred. One that gives them an excuse to revel in a pattern of thought which well-adjusted people would automatically eschew.

[Malkiah]

I'm not saying they can't, I'm saying they don't. But mostly because they don't need to.

but doesn't human history pretty strongly contradict this view?
before fascism you had things like the US confederacy, before that you had the french aristocracy, you had monarchism, feudalism, empires, warlords, military city-states... it's always been conquest, it's always been oppression, for the entirety of known human existence.
they do keep popping up because IMO these structures of thinking and behaving are endemic to the human mind and near as i can tell they always have been.

Fascists are really only fascists when they organize. But again, these organizations don't just spontaneously create themselves. In almost all cases, they've existed for decades upon decades and have just continued, behind closed doors, to recruit like-minded haters and show them an ideology that caters to their hatred. One that gives them an excuse to revel in a pattern of thought which well-adjusted people would automatically eschew.

well sure that's true of "fascism" abstractly but not of that core way of thinking, which has been going for thousands of years at least.

[Endus]

That's the fucking point. He wasn't defending Elon Musk from accusations of being a Nazi or Nazism itself. He was offering context for how Elon Musk thinks, but you flew off the handle the moment you read the words "Elon Musk is not a Nazi..." and ignored everything else in his post.

"Elon Musk is not a Nazi" and "Elon Musk is not just a Nazi" are not the same phrase.

My point is that you are calling someone a Nazi because they said someone else is worse than a Nazi.

He said they're not a Nazi. That's what I was contesting. You've agreed they said that.

The point of the parable was that it is absurd to start accusing someone of being a cunt sympathizer just because you disagree about the degree of how big of cunt they are, if both of you already think he is a massive cunt.

In this case, he opened his argument by claiming "he's not a cunt". Imagine if we were talking cannibalism. This guy would be looking at a picture of Elon Musk with a child's roasted leg in his hands, child-grease smeared all over his face, chewing, and he's arguing "oh, he's not a cannibal."

And that's fucked up. It's a denial of obvious verifiable truth. That's what I took them to task for. And you keep deflecting because he made other criticisms. I don't care. I care about the denial that Musk is a Nazi.

- - - Updated - - -

but doesn't human history pretty strongly contradict this view?
before fascism you had things like the US confederacy, before that you had the french aristocracy, you had monarchism, feudalism, empires, warlords, military city-states... it's always been conquest, it's always been oppression, for the entirety of known human existence.
they do keep popping up because IMO these structures of thinking and behaving are endemic to the human mind and near as i can tell they always have been.

There's very little evidence of such behaviour in prehistory. It largely only emerged when we developed agriculture, because that allowed for societies to produce enough food for individuals to specialize and require greater organization. There would've been conflict between tribes before that, but not that kind of oppression.

There have also been groups who specifically refused to engage in such behaviour, the issue was they largely got exterminated by the groups that would. It's only really in the 20th century with the emergence of concepts like human rights that we've really started to get past that.

It is, however, dangerous to associate all forms of authoritative power (not authoritar[i]ian, note) with fascism, however. Fascism is particularly evil and is a response largely born out of a combination of fear, insecurity, and misanthropy, and without all three, it won't emerge.