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  1. #1

    Can we finally get the BM buff, please?

    If you look at the statistics for Sepulcher, there are foremost 2 significant outliners. On the upper end its destro and on the lower end its BM.
    Its currently not even close to the next place.

    Yes, Survival is great right now and MM okay but that is no reason to simply not fix BM for the rest of the expansion.
    I am not asking for the spec to be pushed to top, one spec is always last, but the gap is simply too big. Blizzard, please fix.

  2. #2
    I think you mean affliction which is far below BM. 2 of your hunter specs are also above aff and destro.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../#difficulty=4

  3. #3
    MM and Survival being good and great is the exact reason why BM doesn't need to be buffed. Also WoW should not be balanced around mythic. If you want to do mythic, play your OP spec. And in heroic you are not even in the top3 specs that need buffs.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by JustaWarlock View Post
    I think you mean affliction which is far below BM. 2 of your hunter specs are also above aff and destro.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../#difficulty=4
    That's because you picked the Heroic ones, for some reason. Here's Mythic: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/29/#
    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    i find it hard to believe some random raid from BFA would draw in more players than the battleground patch in classic
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    FruitySalad boy, this is a fantastic thread and is really going places. I just want to make sure I'm on page one of what is bound to be a long lasting and productive thread. It's amazing there are no other threads discussing the squish, as I'm confident you would have just posted in them if they did exist.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    That's because you picked the Heroic ones, for some reason. Here's Mythic: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/29/#
    Well obviously - mythic is irrelevant due to stacking and the small number of parses, especially on later bosses.

    Heroic shows a much better picture of class balance for the majority of players - and it shows that BM is still better than some specs, and hunters overall have 2 amazing specs.

  6. #6
    I'm of the opinion that a ranged class that is 100% mobile and has one of the simplest rotations should always be one of the worst performing specs. Maybe they could add a couple talents that were harder to utilize and made you less mobile if you wanted to do better dmg.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    MM and Survival being good and great is the exact reason why BM doesn't need to be buffed. Also WoW should not be balanced around mythic. If you want to do mythic, play your OP spec. And in heroic you are not even in the top3 specs that need buffs.
    They aren't good on single target bosses tho. Only aoe and cleave.

  8. #8
    It's amazing how many of you people struggle with basic reading comprehension skills, so I repeat:
    It does not matter how well SV and MM perform, we are talking about BM here. The way WoW works today (each spec playing completely differently) your argument could as well be "it doesn't matter if BM is bad, just play destro"

    Obv Heroic performance is not the best indicator as well, as most mechanics can be skipped or do not even exist at all.

    Also to make this very clear once again: I am not calling for a BM at the top, I am not even calling for a place in the middle, but the difference in performance to the next closes spec (which is also shit) is just way too big.
    As it currently stands, even with a flat 10% aura buff, BM would be last, but not by as big of a margin as right now.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    It's amazing how many of you people struggle with basic reading comprehension skills, so I repeat:
    It does not matter how well SV and MM perform, we are talking about BM here. The way WoW works today (each spec playing completely differently) your argument could as well be "it doesn't matter if BM is bad, just play destro"

    Obv Heroic performance is not the best indicator as well, as most mechanics can be skipped or do not even exist at all.

    Also to make this very clear once again: I am not calling for a BM at the top, I am not even calling for a place in the middle, but the difference in performance to the next closes spec (which is also shit) is just way too big.
    As it currently stands, even with a flat 10% aura buff, BM would be last, but not by as big of a margin as right now.
    They would be last according to what metric? Are you talking abt the mythic raid comparison?

    Not telling you to play 1 or the other 2 specs, but its because of the other 2 specs that make BM look worse than it is.

    Because MM and Surv are good, 99% of mythic raiders that care abt their performance are going to spec as 1 of those in mythic raid. Similar to heroic raids but not as extreme. This leaves the diehard BM players and the players that don't care abt their performance.

    Now take that info and combine it with the overall raid makeup. Top end guilds won't "let" you raid as a BM. So the mythic logs that include BM hunters, are on average, worse raidwise than the others. There are probably other non meta specs in those raids bringing you even farther below optimal performance. This means longer kill times, which means less % of the total fight is lusted, which means lower dps.

    Same thing happened to my frost dk. Unholy was great in 9.0. Any dk that cared went unholy. Frost was 5% worse but all these factors combined to make it look 15% worse.

    Unlike separate classes, its very easy to just change spec. Stat prior might change but early on in the patch you are gearing and getting ilvl upgrades anyway.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    It's amazing how many of you people struggle with basic reading comprehension skills, so I repeat:
    It does not matter how well SV and MM perform, we are talking about BM here. The way WoW works today (each spec playing completely differently) your argument could as well be "it doesn't matter if BM is bad, just play destro"

    Obv Heroic performance is not the best indicator as well, as most mechanics can be skipped or do not even exist at all.

    Also to make this very clear once again: I am not calling for a BM at the top, I am not even calling for a place in the middle, but the difference in performance to the next closes spec (which is also shit) is just way too big.
    As it currently stands, even with a flat 10% aura buff, BM would be last, but not by as big of a margin as right now.
    So, you don’t care if they are last, you just want them to be less last?
    That makes no sense from any standpoint. The players that want to perform, and the guilds tha demand performance, will still play the better specs. The players that don’t care will still play what they want.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    So, you don’t care if they are last, you just want them to be less last?
    That makes no sense from any standpoint. The players that want to perform, and the guilds tha demand performance, will still play the better specs. The players that don’t care will still play what they want.
    I mean, obv I am not going to complain if they get buffed more, why would I?
    But besides that: Yes, just bringing the spec more in line with at least the other bad specs would be fine for a start.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    So, you don’t care if they are last, you just want them to be less last?
    That makes no sense from any standpoint. The players that want to perform, and the guilds tha demand performance, will still play the better specs. The players that don’t care will still play what they want.
    How is such a simple concept so alien to you?

    That being said, a simple counter question:

    What exactly is stopping the balance team from giving BM some "aura buffs" or more specific buffs to some abilities to get them in line to the other specs of the same class. They are looking at the same numbers aren't they.
    This doesn't start or stop with BM btw, but I'd say BM is one of the *easiest* classes to balance because the class is like the simplest of them all.
    You know exactly when the spec does what. Boss mechanics don't matter.

    I'd actually go as far and say this is true for almost if not all specs... but not adjusting BM properly is basically saying not giving a damn about it because it takes nearly 0 effort to do so.
    I really don't care all that much personally, because to me, the spec is dead due to how boring it is and I'd need them to add some other improvements to it before I touch it again ... but I can at least understand why some people think it needs a dps buff.

    What I mean is, it's not like it's in such a close "window" that a significant adjustment would catapult it over the top. It simply has no such potential.
    There is really only one answer to this thread (and thus the thread is pointless) - "Yes... Blizzard should buff it and it's way overdue"
    But what can you do. We could easily see weekly/bi-weekly % adjustments. They designed the classes to work like that. There is hardly any need or even reason for some specs to be 15-20% behind others on average. At this point, they probably really only have to adjust 1-2 values by adding +/-1-3 to them.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-04-26 at 06:21 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    How is such a simple concept so alien to you?

    That being said, a simple counter question:

    What exactly is stopping the balance team from giving BM some "aura buffs" or more specific buffs to some abilities to get them in line to the other specs of the same class. They are looking at the same numbers aren't they.
    This doesn't start or stop with BM btw, but I'd say BM is one of the *easiest* classes to balance because the class is like the simplest of them all.
    You know exactly when the spec does what. Boss mechanics don't matter.

    I'd actually go as far and say this is true for almost if not all specs... but not adjusting BM properly is basically saying not giving a damn about it because it takes nearly 0 effort to do so.
    I really don't care all that much personally, because to me, the spec is dead due to how boring it is and I'd need them to add some other improvements to it before I touch it again ... but I can at least understand why some people think it needs a dps buff.

    What I mean is, it's not like it's in such a close "window" that a significant adjustment would catapult it over the top. It simply has no such potential.
    There is really only one answer to this thread (and thus the thread is pointless) - "Yes... Blizzard should buff it and it's way overdue"
    It’s not an alien concept. It’s just a concept that doesn’t matter because it doesn’t change anything.
    This is asking for a change for change.
    It still would remain the worst dps spec (in this given scenario we are discussing). Players would still play something else to maximize dps. They would play this spec if it doesn’t matter to them or the setting in which they play.
    Changing a spec from the worst, to the slightly less worst, doesn’t do anything at all unless they actually balance every spec to be relatively close.
    THAT is what should be getting asked for. Better balancing across the board for all specs to bring them all in line. Not “please buff my worst spec to be better but still the worst.”

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    I mean, obv I am not going to complain if they get buffed more, why would I?
    But besides that: Yes, just bringing the spec more in line with at least the other bad specs would be fine for a start.
    What I replied to Krayzee.

  14. #14
    I dunno man, pretty sure if BM got a real 4set and more than 2 ST bosses in the tier it would be a very different picture.
    Something like, Kill Command crits empower your next CS/MS to summon a dire beast that stomps? Heaven forbid we bring back an interaction from Legion in some fashion.
    Even if BM got a decent aura buff, it wouldn't matter by itself due to damage profiles in this tier.

    On the 2 ST bosses, Halondrus and Skrillex BM actually does fine/middle of the pack above MM and Surv.
    It's niche has been consistent ST damage for years now.
    So yeah, with a raid that favors AoE and Cleave, on top of M+ largely desiring these traits it's no wonder BM feels bad. Square peg to round hole etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by verylargeprime View Post
    Blizzard needs to purge the furries from their art and design teams. Dracthyr design has furry hack artist stench all over it.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    This is your fault.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    It’s not an alien concept. It’s just a concept that doesn’t matter because it doesn’t change anything.
    This is asking for a change for change.
    It still would remain the worst dps spec (in this given scenario we are discussing). Players would still play something else to maximize dps. They would play this spec if it doesn’t matter to them or the setting in which they play.
    Changing a spec from the worst, to the slightly less worst, doesn’t do anything at all unless they actually balance every spec to be relatively close.
    THAT is what should be getting asked for. Better balancing across the board for all specs to bring them all in line. Not “please buff my worst spec to be better but still the worst.”

    - - - Updated - - -
    It would matter for the class and the player playing that class if all 3 specs are relatively equal, even if it's still going to be the theoretical "worst".
    At some point, player skill (or preference) can take over and at some other point, boss mechanics take over and at some other point, specific situations take over.

    It's not a question of "SV does 1% more theoretical damage, everyone looking for performance would be playing SV"

    If a spec is 15% behind however, everyone looking for performance would certainly not touch that spec.
    It's not a 0 1 situation anymore when specs are getting closer to each other.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-04-26 at 06:53 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    It would matter for the class and the player playing that class if all 3 specs are relatively equal, even if it's still going to be the theoretical "worst".
    At some point, player skill (or preference) can take over and at some other point, boss mechanics take over and at some other point, specific situations take over.

    It's not a question of "SV does 1% more theoretical damage, everyone looking for performance would be playing SV"

    If a spec is 15% behind however, everyone looking for performance would certainly not touch that spec.
    It's not a 0 1 situation anymore when specs are getting closer to each other.
    But that’s not what’s happening. The specs aren’t all relatively close. There’s a huge gap from top to bottom and in between.
    Blizzard needs to make those all closer to make your pipe dream a reality. Being the worst, whether slightly worse than 2nd to last vs greatly worse than 2nd to last, is still a huge disparity when there’s as big of a swing in dps as we have now.
    Solely changing BM tone the worst, but slightly less so, does nothing to the status quo as it is now. If Blizzard balanced all specs closer then it would make what you want more of a reality.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    But that’s not what’s happening. The specs aren’t all relatively close. There’s a huge gap from top to bottom and in between.
    Blizzard needs to make those all closer to make your pipe dream a reality. Being the worst, whether slightly worse than 2nd to last vs greatly worse than 2nd to last, is still a huge disparity when there’s as big of a swing in dps as we have now.
    Solely changing BM tone the worst, but slightly less so, does nothing to the status quo as it is now. If Blizzard balanced all specs closer then it would make what you want more of a reality.
    But... that's basically what OP wanted and the point of the thread?
    And it's not really a "pipe dream" - that almost sounds like something like that is hard to achieve. It's not, if Blizzard would actually do exactly what OP wants and it really doesn't even take a day worth of identifying that.

    He specifically says that he doesn't need or want BM to be first, it could theoretically remain "last", but closer to the others.
    It would already change things as I mentioned earlier.
    BM isn't hard to balance, what's Blizzards excuse for not balancing it? That's why OP made a thread "Can we finally get the BM buff please?"
    This is not some kind of "we don't know what would happen if-" kind of thing, you can basically do the math yourself. We have the exact rotation, the best and worst situation, we know everything. We know the lowest performing situation and the highest performing situation. And when everything doesn't match up and instead of 5% we see a 15% difference, something has to be done, it's really simple.
    They could literally make a bold adjustment of +10% to everything and we'd still be closer to a balance than we are right now.

    Like one step at a time.
    Why not?
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-04-26 at 07:56 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    So, you don’t care if they are last, you just want them to be less last?
    That makes no sense from any standpoint. The players that want to perform, and the guilds tha demand performance, will still play the better specs. The players that don’t care will still play what they want.
    It makes perfect sense. Some people don't enjoy the gameplay of other specs. If the spec isn't total ass tier compared to the performance of the other specs, then it's at least an option.

    Dealt with this through much of my time as a Death Knight where Unholy was better but Frost was close enough to where it didn't matter if I wasn't Unholy. There were a few times when the balance was so messed up that I basically had to swap to Unholy, and those were some absolutely miserable times for me. Either the balance between specializations that perform the same role need to be VERY close together, or they need to stop making each individual spec play wildly different from the others.

    This wasn't really an issue in past expansions as the classes were a complete package with the specs defining what kinds of abilities they preferred to use.
    Arms and Fury didn't play that much differently, it was more about getting the right type of gear for the right spec. Mage was an AoE god no matter what spec that they played. Now it's like every spec within a class has it's own niche, and that causes issues when people really enjoy the playstyle of one spec in their class but not the others. Sometimes you just have to swap and that really sucks.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    It makes perfect sense. Some people don't enjoy the gameplay of other specs. If the spec isn't total ass tier compared to the performance of the other specs, then it's at least an option.

    Dealt with this through much of my time as a Death Knight where Unholy was better but Frost was close enough to where it didn't matter if I wasn't Unholy. There were a few times when the balance was so messed up that I basically had to swap to Unholy, and those were some absolutely miserable times for me. Either the balance between specializations that perform the same role need to be VERY close together, or they need to stop making each individual spec play wildly different from the others.

    This wasn't really an issue in past expansions as the classes were a complete package with the specs defining what kinds of abilities they preferred to use.
    Arms and Fury didn't play that much differently, it was more about getting the right type of gear for the right spec. Mage was an AoE god no matter what spec that they played. Now it's like every spec within a class has it's own niche, and that causes issues when people really enjoy the playstyle of one spec in their class but not the others. Sometimes you just have to swap and that really sucks.
    But it doesn’t make sense to ask for a spec to go from last to less last unless all specs are closer than what they are. With the disparity we have, it’s more beneficial to ask for all specs to be balanced, as asking what they want now is doing nothing other than giving a slight damage buff while keeping that same spec bottom of the barrel.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    But it doesn’t make sense to ask for a spec to go from last to less last unless all specs are closer than what they are. With the disparity we have, it’s more beneficial to ask for all specs to be balanced, as asking what they want now is doing nothing other than giving a slight damage buff while keeping that same spec bottom of the barrel.
    I mean, what makes you assume that OP doesn't want BM to be significantly closer to SV and MM?

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