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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    100% it has. Melee have to deal with up time. Range have to deal with canceling casts and movement. Bm hunters have 0 of these problems. Naturally they are designed to not be 100% as strong when those downsides for other specs get minimized thru fight knowledge and strategies. Bm hunters are the ultimate anti sim bait
    No one is asking BM to be 100% as strong as MM or SV, but being 80% as strong would be way better than we have currently (50-60%?). It's one of the worst specs in raids, and one of the worst specs in M+ too (only one player above 3220 score) along with affliction warlock, outlaw rogue and arms warrior. Having unlimited mobility shouldn't mean that your damage is halved compared to the two other hunter specs. The single target damage is fine but the aoe damage is laughable outside of Wild spirits.
    Last edited by Barzotti; 2022-04-29 at 12:39 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    No one is asking BM to be 100% as strong as MM or SV, but being 80% as strong would be way better than we have currently (50-60%?). It's one of the worst specs in raids, and one of the worst specs in M+ too (only one player above 3220 score) along with affliction warlock, outlaw rogue and arms warrior. Having unlimited mobility shouldn't mean that your damage is halved compared to the two other hunter specs. The single target damage is fine but the aoe damage is laughable outside of Wild spirits.
    What source are you looking at that shows BM hunters at half the damage of the others?

    And if you scroll up you'll see my post about how logs make the damage difference look worse than it is when you have a dif spec of the same class that is better. Tldr, the better players, in better raids with faster kill times, go with the better spec. Compounding all the advantages to make their logs look better than the worse spec, in a margin thats bigger than the actual potential damage difference between the specs.

    BM hunters are the spec with their sim damage closest to their actual damage in raid. See how closely they sim to the other specs, then take into account that mechanics affect them far less than other specs.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    What source are you looking at that shows BM hunters at half the damage of the others?

    And if you scroll up you'll see my post about how logs make the damage difference look worse than it is when you have a dif spec of the same class that is better. Tldr, the better players, in better raids with faster kill times, go with the better spec. Compounding all the advantages to make their logs look better than the worse spec, in a margin thats bigger than the actual potential damage difference between the specs.

    BM hunters are the spec with their sim damage closest to their actual damage in raid. See how closely they sim to the other specs, then take into account that mechanics affect them far less than other specs.
    BM is only relevant on one raid fight which is Halondrus... Wild Spirits isn't great past 4 targets. Idk about a source but in m+ its pretty obvious that BM is not as good as almost any other spec in the game. I'd argue blood dk does more dps then bm hunter in keys at this point.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Dsavv View Post
    BM is only relevant on one raid fight which is Halondrus... Wild Spirits isn't great past 4 targets. Idk about a source but in m+ its pretty obvious that BM is not as good as almost any other spec in the game. I'd argue blood dk does more dps then bm hunter in keys at this point.
    I agree its on the bottom and not as good as the other specs. I just dont think its 50-60% of them tho.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I agree its on the bottom and not as good as the other specs. I just dont think its 50-60% of them tho.
    Not in raids, because BM's single target is fine. But if you look at registered logs on Warcraftlogs for dungeons, it's baffling. You could say that the best players are playing SV and they are better geared, and that's true. But that doesn't justify such a high discrepancy. The higher dps registered is (excluding the anomalies like the 43k dps on Plaguefall or the 37k in DoS):

    De Other Side:
    SV : multiple logs above 25k
    BM: best at 13,8k

    Halls:
    SV: 29,4k
    BM: 21k

    Mists:
    SV: 26,4k
    BM: 15,6k

    Necrotic Wake:
    SV: 33k
    BM: 16,4 k

    Plaguefall:
    SV: 31,8k
    BM: 13,4k

    Sanguine Depths:
    SV: 30k
    BM: 14,5k

    Spires of ascension:
    SV: 26,3k
    BM: 16,2k

    Theater of pain:
    SV: 24,5k
    BM: 13,2k

    Tazavesh Streets:
    SV: 21,8k
    BM: 16,4k

    Tazavesh Gambit:
    SV: 28,6k
    BM: 14,9k

    It's literally half the damage of SV in multiple dungeons. If you want to double check:
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/ra...&spec=Survival
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/ra...c=BeastMastery
    Last edited by Barzotti; 2022-04-30 at 07:26 AM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    Not in raids, because BM's single target is fine. But if you look at registered logs on Warcraftlogs for dungeons, it's baffling. You could say that the best players are playing SV and they are better geared, and that's true. But that doesn't justify such a high discrepancy. The higher dps registered is (excluding the anomalies like the 43k dps on Plaguefall or the 37k in DoS):

    De Other Side:
    SV : multiple logs above 25k
    BM: best at 13,8k

    Halls:
    SV: 29,4k
    BM: 21k

    Mists:
    SV: 26,4k
    BM: 15,6k

    Necrotic Wake:
    SV: 33k
    BM: 16,4 k

    Plaguefall:
    SV: 31,8k
    BM: 13,4k

    Sanguine Depths:
    SV: 30k
    BM: 14,5k

    Spires of ascension:
    SV: 26,3k
    BM: 16,2k

    Theater of pain:
    SV: 24,5k
    BM: 13,2k

    Tazavesh Streets:
    SV: 21,8k
    BM: 16,4k

    Tazavesh Gambit:
    SV: 28,6k
    BM: 14,9k

    It's literally half the damage of SV in multiple dungeons. If you want to double check:
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/ra...&spec=Survival
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/ra...c=BeastMastery
    You are comparing top logs of the most meta spec in m+ right now, to its worse spec. The top survival logs are doing triple pulls every single pull just to beat the timer in +30s. The top bm logs are casually going thru like +23s because anyone who cares to push higher has been survival for a long time.

    I'm agreeing thar BM does worse aoe and overall, but its not a fair comparison when you look at all the factors.

    Not great at the site but can u check the 75th percentile instead of the very top logs? Like 75th percentile at various key levels like 15, 20, 23?

  7. #47
    I'm not sure if you can check the 75th percentile instead of the top logs, but you can check for a specific key level. Let's have a look at +20 keys. And let's take the 3th best performance (because you can have some anomalies in the top 1-2 runs which can be skewed):

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/ra...ery&bracket=20

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/ra...val&bracket=20

    De Other Side: 40% difference
    SV : 21,3k
    BM: 12,9k

    Halls: 40%
    SV: 23,5k
    BM: 14,1k

    Mists: 35%
    SV: 21,6k
    BM: 14,2k

    Necrotic Wake 35%
    SV: 22,5k
    BM: 14,8k

    Plaguefall: 33%
    SV: 18,3k
    BM: 12,3k

    Sanguine Depths: 44%
    SV: 24,8k
    BM: 13,9k

    Spires of ascension: 28%
    SV: 16,4k
    BM: 11,8k

    Theater of pain: 25%
    SV: 15,4k
    BM: 11,5k

    Tazavesh Streets: 22%
    SV: 15,8k
    BM: 12,3k

    Tazavesh Gambit: 37%
    SV: 21,9k
    BM: 13,8k

    It's not just slightly worse, it's around a 34% difference across the board. That's considerable in modern WoW. Using that same metric (comparing the third best run):

    +15: 34,4% dps discrepancy overall
    +23: not enough runs recorded for BM to be relevant, there isn't a log for DoS and eight dungeons have 5 recorded runs or less for BM xD
    Last edited by Barzotti; 2022-04-30 at 02:24 PM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    +15: 34,4% dps discrepancy overall
    +23: not enough runs recorded for BM to be relevant, there isn't a log for DoS and eight dungeons have 5 recorded runs or less for BM xD
    It's really bad, but this is also the cases for several entire classes that don't even have the option of swapping specs. Like Ret is better than BM but still awful compared to SV or MM, and paladins have no other options.

  9. #49
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    One problem with looking at numbers like this and saying "this class performs better than this other one because look at this raid's numbers" is that people play specs that are better performing, or at least perceived to be better. For instance, not many people are going to put a ton of effort into min-maxing BMs DPS when if they REALLY wanted to min-max they wouldn't be playing BM.

    On the heroic page (which I'd agree is a more accurate representation of overall performance) look at the number of parses for Affliction vs basically any other spec. Those parses are lower than is really accurate for at least two reasons - not enough people playing the spec, and the quality of player that is choosing to play an "underpowered" spec.
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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    If you look at the statistics for Sepulcher, there are foremost 2 significant outliners. On the upper end its destro and on the lower end its BM.
    Its currently not even close to the next place.

    Yes, Survival is great right now and MM okay but that is no reason to simply not fix BM for the rest of the expansion.
    I am not asking for the spec to be pushed to top, one spec is always last, but the gap is simply too big. Blizzard, please fix.
    Some classes just perform good on certain fights, you dont need fixed because you aint broken, if you are near max ilvl you outgear the fights and have more than enough potential dps to kill all mythic encounters it just depends on skill.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Barzotti View Post
    snip
    BM is not really an AOE class so yes your going to get beat by the classes/specs with better AOE, mythic plus is about using the best comps to clear on 15 or higher keys, its not balanced around every single spec being about to clear 25 plus keys.
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  11. #51
    we got a 4% buff but its not enough, how big a buff do we need be4 bm hunters start getting invited to 19s and 20 on fort week? im currently stuck at 2923 and i l cant progress also be4 any1 suggest switch spec i say that i find mm unfun to play and the game just doesn't want me to get a surv weapon
    Last edited by thunderdragon2; 2022-05-06 at 12:15 AM.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    MM and Survival being good and great is the exact reason why BM doesn't need to be buffed. Also WoW should not be balanced around mythic. If you want to do mythic, play your OP spec. And in heroic you are not even in the top3 specs that need buffs.
    I'm sorry but you should not be forced to play a spec you hate to be good in mythic,. BM absolutely does need to be balanced around mythic as does every spec.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    I'm sorry but you should not be forced to play a spec you hate to be good in mythic,. BM absolutely does need to be balanced around mythic as does every spec.
    Force what? to be good what? top BM is doing 23+, what is your progress? Bm is fine, its literally a spec that has 3 buttons and casts and moves at the same time, it will never be top dps hunter spec

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by kaelix1 View Post
    it will never be top dps hunter spec
    Except for the previous expansion, you mean, where it ended as not just the top hunter but one of the top dps specs, period

  15. #55
    BM is actually above the other two specs in many raid encounters. They appear to be the superior spec for all the "single target" fights. Or more so, the ones that don't have a ton of wild AOE.
    Right now, the other two specs are quite OP for AOE, so there is no chance they are going to make a THIRD spec on that class OP like that, so that's just out.
    If you look at logs on those fights though, you can see hunter is actually just a pretty weak class right now, so it sort of just makes the AOE output look like an even big outlier.

    But make no mistake. They have gotten 2 direct DPS buffs already in the last few weeks. Many more than specs that are in a much worse position all around.
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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by kaelix1 View Post
    Force what? to be good what? top BM is doing 23+, what is your progress? Bm is fine, its literally a spec that has 3 buttons and casts and moves at the same time, it will never be top dps hunter spec
    Fprce wjhat? Forced to play a different spec because BM is bad. Also, one or two people pushing 23+ doesn't mean the spec is fine.

    Nobody is asking it to be the top hunter spec either. All they are asking is to be viable in Mythic so people aren't forced to play a spec they do not like to do that content.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Fprce wjhat? Forced to play a different spec because BM is bad. Also, one or two people pushing 23+ doesn't mean the spec is fine.

    Nobody is asking it to be the top hunter spec either. All they are asking is to be viable in Mythic so people aren't forced to play a spec they do not like to do that content.
    It is viable. There are BM Hunter parses on every fight (and yes, I am counting the 1 parse on LoD). Some fights actually have more parses for BM. It’s just not the top Hunter dps spec for most fights because of how the fights are designed.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Fprce wjhat? Forced to play a different spec because BM is bad. Also, one or two people pushing 23+ doesn't mean the spec is fine.

    Nobody is asking it to be the top hunter spec either. All they are asking is to be viable in Mythic so people aren't forced to play a spec they do not like to do that content.
    This is nonsense, BM is capable of killing Jailer on mythic, Bm is capable of doing 20+, end of story the spec is fine, its a 2 buttons spect that can do anything on move

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaelix1 View Post
    This is nonsense, BM is capable of killing Jailer on mythic, Bm is capable of doing 20+, end of story the spec is fine, its a 2 buttons spect that can do anything on move
    I can tell you don't play BM hunter

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    It is viable. There are BM Hunter parses on every fight (and yes, I am counting the 1 parse on LoD). Some fights actually have more parses for BM. It’s just not the top Hunter dps spec for most fights because of how the fights are designed.
    How would a fight have to be designed that would make BM perform better than now?

    They'd have to design fights that make every other spec basically not fun to play anymore (by making them move every second or something)?

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