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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    How would a fight have to be designed that would make BM perform better than now?

    They'd have to design fights that make every other spec basically not fun to play anymore (by making them move every second or something)?
    There are fights where BM performs better. Halondrus, Ryegelon, and Jailer come to mind. They are more ST focused, and Halondrus in particular involves movement.
    BM is just behind SV on Dausegne, with both of those above MM. It’s higher than both on Skolex.
    It’s viable in mythic raid, the highest level of play, as evidence in Warcraftlogs.com showing so by the higher end of raiding.
    That’s just under 50% of the bosses where it performs well enough to be better than 1, or both, of the other specs. 1 of which is considered one of the hardest bosses in the current raid (pre nerf).

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    There are fights where BM performs better. Halondrus, Ryegelon, and Jailer come to mind. They are more ST focused, and Halondrus in particular involves movement.
    BM is just behind SV on Dausegne, with both of those above MM. It’s higher than both on Skolex.
    It’s viable in mythic raid, the highest level of play, as evidence in Warcraftlogs.com showing so by the higher end of raiding.
    That’s just under 50% of the bosses where it performs well enough to be better than 1, or both, of the other specs. 1 of which is considered one of the hardest bosses in the current raid (pre nerf).

    And you don't see how the differences between these... "fights designed for BM" are not even remotely compareable to the difference in DPS that occurs whenever a fight is "not designed for BM"

    Does this not tell you that BM AoE is completely broken (bad)?

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by kaelix1 View Post
    This is nonsense, BM is capable of killing Jailer on mythic, Bm is capable of doing 20+, end of story the spec is fine, its a 2 buttons spect that can do anything on move
    You have never played the spec have you? There is a reason why barely any mythic raiders play the spec.

  4. #64
    Legendary! Ealyssa's Avatar
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    The easiest specs should be the lowest performing too. I see no problem with BM being lower than MM and SV.

    Why would you play something harder if the dumbest spec in the game can do as good ?
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  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    And you don't see how the differences between these... "fights designed for BM" are not even remotely compareable to the difference in DPS that occurs whenever a fight is "not designed for BM"

    Does this not tell you that BM AoE is completely broken (bad)?
    It’s not an AoE spec. It wasn’t designed for that. Blizzard even stated years ago, possibly beginning with Legion or even before, that they were going to design specs with different strengths and weaknesses going forward.
    BM is not an AoE spec; however, it excels at ST and heavy movement fights. It doesn’t even have to have heavy movement as it is still a strong sustained ST spec overall.

    Your entire 1st argument also applies to SV and MM in the reverse, but I don’t see you advocating for them, just that you want BM to be better at something it’s not built for.

    As I stated, BM has killed every mythic raid boss, showing that it’s viable for mythic raid. As others have pointed out, it’s cleared 20+ m keystones.
    The people arguing that BM isn’t viable for high level, end game content, have nothing to argue for as it’s been proven that it’s viable for that content. It’s just not THE best.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    The easiest specs should be the lowest performing too. I see no problem with BM being lower than MM and SV.

    Why would you play something harder if the dumbest spec in the game can do as good ?
    Because , and i know this is going to cause your brain to explode from confusion, maybe people LIKE playing BM over the other specs :P
    I know..crazy right, wanting to have fun in a game!

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by aviger View Post
    Because , and i know this is going to cause your brain to explode from confusion, maybe people LIKE playing BM over the other specs :P
    I know..crazy right, wanting to have fun in a game!
    Well everybody can't be #1 now can they? lol.

    Just because you like something doesn't automatically mean it should be the best

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Well everybody can't be #1 now can they? lol.

    Just because you like something doesn't automatically mean it should be the best
    No, but it could be on par with the other two. I mean it's not THAT hard to do.
    If the other 2 specs are say 10-15% ahead (numbers randomly picked don't go nuts) it's not that hard to just make BM do 10-15% more dps.
    I don't need to be #1, this way everyone can play what's fun and do about the same dps.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Except for the previous expansion, you mean, where it ended as not just the top hunter but one of the top dps specs, period
    That was bad design. The current version is undertuned for sure, but a spec that's essentially a melee with a 40 yards hitbox, should not be top Dps. BM being undertuned will always be preferable to it being overtuned, as long as the current design philosophy remains.

    They got rid of the 100% freecasting for MM. Get rid of it for BM aswell, then it can be buffed.
    They're (short for They are) describes a group of people. "They're/They are a nice bunch of guys." Their indicates that something belongs/is related to a group of people. "Their car was all out of fuel." There refers to a location. "Let's set up camp over there." There is also no such thing as "could/should OF". The correct way is: Could/should'VE, or could/should HAVE.
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  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by aviger View Post
    No, but it could be on par with the other two. I mean it's not THAT hard to do.
    If the other 2 specs are say 10-15% ahead (numbers randomly picked don't go nuts) it's not that hard to just make BM do 10-15% more dps.
    I don't need to be #1, this way everyone can play what's fun and do about the same dps.
    Somebody has to be last. And it's not like it's a game breaking amount BM is behind either, the community just loves to exaggerate anything and everything. And isnt BM like op in pvp? You just want your cake and eat it too lol

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    It’s not an AoE spec. It wasn’t designed for that. Blizzard even stated years ago, possibly beginning with Legion or even before, that they were going to design specs with different strengths and weaknesses going forward.
    BM is not an AoE spec; however, it excels at ST and heavy movement fights. It doesn’t even have to have heavy movement as it is still a strong sustained ST spec overall.

    Your entire 1st argument also applies to SV and MM in the reverse, but I don’t see you advocating for them, just that you want BM to be better at something it’s not built for.

    As I stated, BM has killed every mythic raid boss, showing that it’s viable for mythic raid. As others have pointed out, it’s cleared 20+ m keystones.
    The people arguing that BM isn’t viable for high level, end game content, have nothing to argue for as it’s been proven that it’s viable for that content. It’s just not THE best.
    It doesn't, I'm playing almost exclusively SV (due to obvious reasons) and it's solid in ST and nuts in MT,

    BM is solid in ST (do you understand? It's still just solid/slightly better than the other 2 specs in ST) and garbage in MT. It's really that simple.

    If you'd give them grades for overall performance, SV would go to college and BM would struggle with high school.
    Denying that won't really help much. You are acting as if BM excells at movement or ST when it actually doesn't (compared to the other 2 specs).
    It's hardly worth it to mention that.

    It's also not true that specs are designed for a specific case.
    Like... there is no such thing as "this spec is supposed to do ST and this spec is supposed to do MT". There is no such official design decisions made as the past has shown us not just once but basically every single expansion. We aren't talking about an outlier here.
    If there is, there is certainly not supposed to be such a high variation and it should be more in line with what you see in ST on all 3 specs right now.

    It just doesn't make any sense to force the use of specs for specific fights. And when you are looking at a 7k+ difference in DPS when people do like 15-25k DPS, than you *are* forced to switch. Even more so when your ST for your garbage MT spec is just slightly below/above average at best as well. You'd just be ignorant, almost toxic, if you don't switch.
    It makes even less when your "strength" simply just doesn't apply to 95% of the content you do and only in very specific mega hardcore fights that 99% of the community doesn't and didn't even ATTEMPT.
    Not to mention other issues such as gear requirements for specific specs. melee trinkets vs. range trinkets, melee weapon vs. range weapons
    different substat sets and all that stuff.

    Your point about M+20 and Mythic is not relevant as well.
    There was no argument made that BM can't do (or be carried through) this kind of content. That's just not enough though. And it really doesn't matter if other specs have the same issue. Those need fixing as well then.

    It's really a simple matter of fixing BMs MT potential. If they can't do it by spec design (because let's face it, the AoE gameplay for BM is utterly void of any interesting gameplay whatsoever, but that also means it's easy to tune), they could at least tune up the beast cleave numbers to a respectable level, just like how the ST numbers for MM and SV are respectable.

    I'm not sure why that's so hard to see.
    There should never be a case where you play a spec to 100% of its potential (which is not hard to do as BM in MT scenarios) and only do 50% of someone else's DPS of the same class, but different spec
    Actually, there should never be such a difference between any class and spec. No matter the situation.
    It's why they, for the love of god, introduced the target cap in the first place. They didn't introduce it to make the playing field even more "unfair" whenever AoE is on the table, they introduced it to keep some specs in line and introduce new tuning mechanics they can adjust.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-05-17 at 05:03 AM.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Somebody has to be last. And it's not like it's a game breaking amount BM is behind either, the community just loves to exaggerate anything and everything. And isnt BM like op in pvp? You just want your cake and eat it too lol
    I don't PVP so that totally doesn't matter to me. And yes, off course someone has to be last. My point was that if one spec is last (even BM) by only 1-3% that is totally fine. That means no one is going to bench you for what spec you play.
    If it's 10-15% then you have issues.

    *I* do not want my cake and eat it to, I just want blizz to be smart and balance better.
    But i've been playing since beta...that ain't ever happening heh

  13. #73
    Legendary! Ealyssa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aviger View Post
    Because , and i know this is going to cause your brain to explode from confusion, maybe people LIKE playing BM over the other specs :P
    I know..crazy right, wanting to have fun in a game!
    If you like it, play it. But don’t expect to be first…

    Only one spec can be a the top. BM should NEVER be the one
    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    nazi is not the abbreviation of national socialism....
    When googling 4 letters is asking too much fact-checking.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by aviger View Post
    No, but it could be on par with the other two. I mean it's not THAT hard to do.
    If the other 2 specs are say 10-15% ahead (numbers randomly picked don't go nuts) it's not that hard to just make BM do 10-15% more dps.
    I don't need to be #1, this way everyone can play what's fun and do about the same dps.
    The reason you can't "just make BM do 10-15% more dps" is explained perfectly in the the post below you. BM has no movement penalty. Buffing BM by 10-15% would work perfectly on patchwerk fights. The problem is that mechanics exist. So any movement will cause every single other spec in the game to lose dps. Not BM tho.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    If you like it, play it. But don’t expect to be first…

    Only one spec can be a the top. BM should NEVER be the one
    So again, i never said I expected to be first. I said it should be close enough that "sitting" a BM because they are BM is not an issue.
    Don't know why people can't read before replying anymore...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    The reason you can't "just make BM do 10-15% more dps" is explained perfectly in the the post below you. BM has no movement penalty. Buffing BM by 10-15% would work perfectly on patchwerk fights. The problem is that mechanics exist. So any movement will cause every single other spec in the game to lose dps. Not BM tho.
    So? You could reverse the argument and then say "well you should play BM then coz it's easier"...
    My point was that BM should not be low enough that the comment "you should play XYZ because more DPS" is valid.
    Does that mean BM should do as much or more than SV/MM? no.
    But it should be closer with a marginal penalty for the movement.
    Or buff the other specs that when they do lose movement, they dont loose as much DPS.

    It's doable, it's just hard and blizz hates doing hard things

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by aviger View Post
    So again, i never said I expected to be first. I said it should be close enough that "sitting" a BM because they are BM is not an issue.
    Don't know why people can't read before replying anymore...

    - - - Updated - - -



    So? You could reverse the argument and then say "well you should play BM then coz it's easier"...
    My point was that BM should not be low enough that the comment "you should play XYZ because more DPS" is valid.
    Does that mean BM should do as much or more than SV/MM? no.
    But it should be closer with a marginal penalty for the movement.
    Or buff the other specs that when they do lose movement, they dont loose as much DPS.

    It's doable, it's just hard and blizz hates doing hard things
    Its also not as easy as you make it out to be.

    Theres single target, there's cleave, there's aoe. Theres cast times vs instants. Theres constant attacks, theres bursts of damage. Every single class has a different variation of these plus more.

    Then the fights are all different. Are there damage phases u gotta save cds for? Are there adds? How many adds? How often do the adds spawn? How much hp do these adds have. Is there movement? How long is the movement. How frequent?

    Bm is fine ST but less aoe than the others. They will suffer on stationary multi target bosses. They will be better on ST high movement bosses.

    I'm not saying theu don't need targeted buffs but just pointing out that "they are 10% behind on logs so they need a 10% dmg buff" is not how it works.

  17. #77
    BM should absolutely never do as much dps as a spec with a 2.5 cast time
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    It doesn't, I'm playing almost exclusively SV (due to obvious reasons) and it's solid in ST and nuts in MT,

    BM is solid in ST (do you understand? It's still just solid/slightly better than the other 2 specs in ST) and garbage in MT. It's really that simple.

    If you'd give them grades for overall performance, SV would go to college and BM would struggle with high school.
    Denying that won't really help much. You are acting as if BM excells at movement or ST when it actually doesn't (compared to the other 2 specs).
    It's hardly worth it to mention that.

    It's also not true that specs are designed for a specific case.
    Like... there is no such thing as "this spec is supposed to do ST and this spec is supposed to do MT". There is no such official design decisions made as the past has shown us not just once but basically every single expansion. We aren't talking about an outlier here.
    If there is, there is certainly not supposed to be such a high variation and it should be more in line with what you see in ST on all 3 specs right now.

    It just doesn't make any sense to force the use of specs for specific fights. And when you are looking at a 7k+ difference in DPS when people do like 15-25k DPS, than you *are* forced to switch. Even more so when your ST for your garbage MT spec is just slightly below/above average at best as well. You'd just be ignorant, almost toxic, if you don't switch.
    It makes even less when your "strength" simply just doesn't apply to 95% of the content you do and only in very specific mega hardcore fights that 99% of the community doesn't and didn't even ATTEMPT.
    Not to mention other issues such as gear requirements for specific specs. melee trinkets vs. range trinkets, melee weapon vs. range weapons
    different substat sets and all that stuff.

    Your point about M+20 and Mythic is not relevant as well.
    There was no argument made that BM can't do (or be carried through) this kind of content. That's just not enough though. And it really doesn't matter if other specs have the same issue. Those need fixing as well then.

    It's really a simple matter of fixing BMs MT potential. If they can't do it by spec design (because let's face it, the AoE gameplay for BM is utterly void of any interesting gameplay whatsoever, but that also means it's easy to tune), they could at least tune up the beast cleave numbers to a respectable level, just like how the ST numbers for MM and SV are respectable.

    I'm not sure why that's so hard to see.
    There should never be a case where you play a spec to 100% of its potential (which is not hard to do as BM in MT scenarios) and only do 50% of someone else's DPS of the same class, but different spec
    Actually, there should never be such a difference between any class and spec. No matter the situation.
    It's why they, for the love of god, introduced the target cap in the first place. They didn't introduce it to make the playing field even more "unfair" whenever AoE is on the table, they introduced it to keep some specs in line and introduce new tuning mechanics they can adjust.
    It’s not garbage in MT, it’s just not anywhere near as strong because it’s not a MT spec. Even stated by Blizzard’s design philosophy.

    As stated, it even performs better on certain fights due to how the fight is designed and/or it being a ST fight.
    It’s literally better than 1, or both, of the other 2 specs for almost 1/2 of the raid. It’s also been shown to be able to be viable for high m+.
    You aren’t being forced to use a specific spec for a fight by devs or game design. Maybe guilds and pugs are imposing that on people, but that’s not at fault of the game, that’s it’s players mentality.

  19. #79
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Why is the argument always "so you want to be #1" or "someone has to be the worst" instead of just wanting each spec to play decently to a certain extent?

    I like the class fantasy more than the others (idk wtf crackhead shit SV is supposed to be) so it's still my favorite unless Dark Ranger is a thing. I'll wave goodbye at my Spiritbeasts for instant teleports and cool maneuverability.
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  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    It’s not garbage in MT, it’s just not anywhere near as strong because it’s not a MT spec. Even stated by Blizzard’s design philosophy.

    As stated, it even performs better on certain fights due to how the fight is designed and/or it being a ST fight.
    It’s literally better than 1, or both, of the other 2 specs for almost 1/2 of the raid. It’s also been shown to be able to be viable for high m+.
    You aren’t being forced to use a specific spec for a fight by devs or game design. Maybe guilds and pugs are imposing that on people, but that’s not at fault of the game, that’s it’s players mentality.
    It *is* garbage in MT dude.

    It's also not better in 50% of the fights.
    It's not better on Jailer than MM for example. It's basically equal.

    The only fight where you want to go BM is Halondrus.
    On all the other fights you can just play MM/SV and it wouldn't be much different.
    Compared to all the fights where you shouldn't play BM because you are simply underperforming with that spec.
    You are acting as if the 2-5% difference or whatever matters (ST), while the 50% difference doesn't. (MT)

    In M+ you are literally looking at a 100%+ damage increase if you pick SV instead of BM. What's so hard to admit that this kind of difference is way too big? Maybe if you stay in the >5 mobs per pull range BM can perform well or even outperfom due to Night Fae being a thing, but that's not how you pull in there.
    Just like you don't want a spec that is 50% behind in ST, you don't want a spec that is 50% behind in MT.

    This is way beyond "SpEc XYZ iS sUpPoSeD tO bE bEtTeR in ST"


    Can you link me the Blizzard statement about "design philosophy" btw where it states that a spec is supposed to be behind 50% of another spec, whatever the situation may be?
    And how "old" is that philisophy, considering that Legion's design philosophy was "you shouldn't have to switch specs and we want you to say "I'm a destruction warlock" and not just "a warlock"."
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-05-17 at 08:05 PM.

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