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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaloff View Post
    personally i couldnt care if a specc was easy to play or not, if a specc is bottom tier and really struggles to be viable (viable is the term here, not op), then we should buff up those speccs so they atleast can be viable for endgame content. Most specc are easy to play and pretty braindead, so the old argument "oh X specc is easy to play therefore it deserves to not be viable at all" is not a good take. I dont say BM has to be buffed to high heavens like it was in BFA 8.3 but atleast buff it so it can be viable for mythic raiding.
    They are viable for endgame. The problem is way too many people in this thread equate viable with in the top tier.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    They are viable for endgame. The problem is way too many people in this thread equate viable with in the top tier.
    they struggle massively thought, just take a look at M anduin for example, and even with full 278 they cannot get close to some other speccs. i dont say they have to be top tier but they do need a buff for sure (or uncapped aoe).

  3. #123
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustaWarlock View Post
    I think you mean affliction which is far below BM. 2 of your hunter specs are also above aff and destro.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../#difficulty=4
    Ya but BM is by far the hardest spec to play and should do the most damage period for all forms of content. Affliction is only meant as a meme spec anyways for soloing level 1 boars.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Talon8669 View Post
    Ya but BM is by far the hardest spec to play and should do the most damage period for all forms of content. Affliction is only meant as a meme spec anyways for soloing level 1 boars.
    Atleast now we know whos going full ham on trolling.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaloff View Post
    they struggle massively thought, just take a look at M anduin for example, and even with full 278 they cannot get close to some other speccs. i dont say they have to be top tier but they do need a buff for sure (or uncapped aoe).
    Are they at the bottom? And even if they are someone has to be. How large is the gap between them and the next one up? How large is the total gap between them at the best spec? There's lots of information we'd need to make a decision like this. Wait. Blizzard has this information... /hmm
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Are they at the bottom? And even if they are someone has to be. How large is the gap between them and the next one up? How large is the total gap between them at the best spec? There's lots of information we'd need to make a decision like this. Wait. Blizzard has this information... /hmm
    someone always have to be at the bottom, the gap between BM and Destro lock (looking at warcraft logs now for M anduin for example), is 30k difference, which is almost double the dmg a BM can push out. Now i know destros are busted but i dont think we have ever seen such disparency between top and bottom speccs. I dont say BM should be buffed to high heavens but they really are struggling alot, the beast cleave cap for example gutted them pretty hard, only reason we see survival doing stupid amounts of dmg is due to uncapped aoe and busted tier sets.

    So it would be nice if blizzard tries to balance it better but they have kinda put themselfs into a corner due all borrowed power aswell.

  7. #127
    I love how many people disagreed with me when I started this thread and now BM got first a 3% Buff and now another 6% buff, resulting in even MORE than a 10% buff compared to the initial situation where people really were saying "it's fine"

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    If you like it, play it. But don’t expect to be first…

    Only one spec can be a the top. BM should NEVER be the one
    It amazes me people keep repeating this ignorant stawman. Nobody is asking to be number one. All that is being asked for is to be on par with the other two specs in the class. And saying "BM should never be #1" is elitist nonsense built entirely on "I hate the spec so it should never be better than my favorite spec".

    People need to stop spinning this thread into "BM's want to top the meters". It is disingenuous and dishonest,

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    It amazes me people keep repeating this ignorant stawman. Nobody is asking to be number one. All that is being asked for is to be on par with the other two specs in the class. And saying "BM should never be #1" is elitist nonsense built entirely on "I hate the spec so it should never be better than my favorite spec".

    People need to stop spinning this thread into "BM's want to top the meters". It is disingenuous and dishonest,
    I kinda also love that when people keep talking about being on par with the other 2 specs, they usually mean the exact same dmg or higher than them. But they dont explain what they are willing to sacrifice to achieve that considering theres rly no punishment for BM hunters except the rotation like everyone else. They can shoot while moving, they have 0 cast timers, they are ranged. What would they sacrifice for it?

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Verissaugh View Post
    I kinda also love that when people keep talking about being on par with the other 2 specs, they usually mean the exact same dmg or higher than them. But they dont explain what they are willing to sacrifice to achieve that considering theres really no punishment for BM hunters except the rotation like everyone else. They can shoot while moving, they have 0 cast timers, they are ranged. What would they sacrifice for it?
    More dishonest BS. Nobody is asking to better and nobody is saying it should be equal. ALl that is being asked for is to be CLOSE to the other specs, not the massive gap there is not
    ''
    So, There is nothing to sacrifice. When the gap is that big with the two other specs not topping the meters, you don't need to sacrifice. Just bring it to the point where the gap is not really noticeable.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    I love this meme of "BM is so easy" when it's genuinely more complex to play well compared to MM/SV.

    Lower skill floor but definitely a higher skill ceiling.
    I love how people just make shit up like you did in that post.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Makaloff View Post
    personally i couldnt care if a specc was easy to play or not, if a specc is bottom tier and really struggles to be viable (viable is the term here, not op), then we should buff up those speccs so they atleast can be viable for endgame content. Most specc are easy to play and pretty braindead, so the old argument "oh X specc is easy to play therefore it deserves to not be viable at all" is not a good take. I dont say BM has to be buffed to high heavens like it was in BFA 8.3 but atleast buff it so it can be viable for mythic raiding.
    If "viable" is the goal, then exactly zero hunter specs need to be buffed since all 3 are perfectly viable.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    More dishonest BS. Nobody is asking to better and nobody is saying it should be equal. ALl that is being asked for is to be CLOSE to the other specs, not the massive gap there is not
    ''
    So, There is nothing to sacrifice. When the gap is that big with the two other specs not topping the meters, you don't need to sacrifice. Just bring it to the point where the gap is not really noticeable.
    You dont need buffs some classes just need nerfed, the hardest content in the game is cleared with all specs so all it comes down to is players wanting to get higher on the dps meters, its not about balance its about the player feeling like they cant beat other players.

    Balance between the classes will also never happen, there is way too many classes and performance is also dependant on the fight.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2022-06-04 at 04:14 PM.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    More dishonest BS. Nobody is asking to better and nobody is saying it should be equal. ALl that is being asked for is to be CLOSE to the other specs, not the massive gap there is not
    ''
    So, There is nothing to sacrifice. When the gap is that big with the two other specs not topping the meters, you don't need to sacrifice. Just bring it to the point where the gap is not really noticeable.
    So you want Surv to get a ~700 dps buff so that it can pull what BM easily pulls on M Jailer? Or give surv a ~900 dps buff so it pulls what BM easily does on M Dausegne? Or are we giving MM a ~500 dps buff so it can match BM on Skolex?

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    More dishonest BS. Nobody is asking to better and nobody is saying it should be equal. ALl that is being asked for is to be CLOSE to the other specs, not the massive gap there is not
    ''
    So, There is nothing to sacrifice. When the gap is that big with the two other specs not topping the meters, you don't need to sacrifice. Just bring it to the point where the gap is not really noticeable.
    Literally saying dont need to be equal but also says "not noticeable" difference basically means equal or so close that you cant see the difference. You keep saying dishonest BS when you keep contradicting your statement.
    How much closer do you want them to be? 1%? 2%? 5%? Before saying "closer" you might want to actually make that kind of statement unless you want to be extremely dishonest. U want the cake and the cookie but no punishments for it.

    Isnt BM stronger in ST? Do that mean we should nerf that aswell?

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Verissaugh View Post
    Literally saying dont need to be equal but also says "not noticeable" difference basically means equal or so close that you cant see the difference. You keep saying dishonest BS when you keep contradicting your statement.
    How much closer do you want them to be? 1%? 2%? 5%? Before saying "closer" you might want to actually make that kind of statement unless you want to be extremely dishonest. U want the cake and the cookie but no punishments for it.

    Isnt BM stronger in ST? Do that mean we should nerf that aswell?
    You are putting words in my mouth in an attempt to get a "gotcha" moment. I have not contradicted anything. A 1% to 2% difference is not noticeable, but it sure as hell is not equal. You knew what I meant. The dishonesty? Coming from you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    You dont need buffs some classes just need nerfed, the hardest content in the game is cleared with all specs so all it comes down to is players wanting to get higher on the dps meters, its not about balance its about the player feeling like they cant beat other players.

    Balance between the classes will also never happen, there is way too many classes and performance is also dependent on the fight.
    It's a lot harder for the bottom specs because they aren't being invited to groups because they are considered not viable. The fact that a couple of the spec managed to clear it does not mean they all have equal access. BM's by and large are not being taken into raids. Gee I wonder why that is?

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    It's a lot harder for the bottom specs because they aren't being invited to groups because they are considered not viable. The fact that a couple of the spec managed to clear it does not mean they all have equal access. BM's by and large are not being taken into raids. Gee I wonder why that is?
    This is also a self-fulfilling prophecy. Better players will always gravitate toward the better specs (especially if there are multiple options, like hunters), which means that not only is BM worse, it is played by worse players.

    I'm all in favor of all specs being viable for all content but that's especially never going to happen with pure DPS classes. Given the choice, it's far more important for windwalker or ret or havoc (all the only dps options for an entire class) to be viable than every single spec from a pure DPS class.

    Put another way, the bottom of the meters pretty much always needs to be the "bad" specs from pure DPS classes.
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    You are putting words in my mouth in an attempt to get a "gotcha" moment. I have not contradicted anything. A 1% to 2% difference is not noticeable, but it sure as hell is not equal. You knew what I meant. The dishonesty? Coming from you.
    Im not putting words in your mouth, im trying to clearly explain to you that your definition of "not noticeable" is either equal or 1-2% behind which is still pretty stupid close unless you make BM hunters sacrifice something for that option. Its not even about "gotcha" moment that you seem so proud of saying.

    BM hunters got no downsides which the other 2 got. Even if you want to say they arent even "noticeable" downsides its still downsides.
    You still didnt say if you would want to nerf the single target on BMs if so.
    Keep screaming out "dishonest" and "bullshit" as much as you want, doesnt change the fact that BM hunters are viable. Just your concept of viable means eating both the cookie and the cake.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    It's a lot harder for the bottom specs because they aren't being invited to groups because they are considered not viable. The fact that a couple of the spec managed to clear it does not mean they all have equal access. BM's by and large are not being taken into raids. Gee I wonder why that is?
    Some classes are overperforming so you dont need a buff, everyone is 280 ilvl can clear the raid if they are skilled enough with any reasonable raid setup. When you dont compared yourself to a warlock the difference is on average 10-15% between most classes at most, that is reasonable.

    If a raid wont take you then its not worth joining in the first place, single target damage matters sometimes alot more than classes being able to cheese the meters, BM is designed to be mostly single target, blizz could do something to give it more cleave dmg.

    Buffing classes actually nerfs current content, the classes are already performing far beyond the raids needs to clear it.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    This is also a self-fulfilling prophecy. Better players will always gravitate toward the better specs (especially if there are multiple options, like hunters), which means that not only is BM worse, it is played by worse players.

    I'm all in favor of all specs being viable for all content but that's especially never going to happen with pure DPS classes. Given the choice, it's far more important for windwalker or ret or havoc (all the only dps options for an entire class) to be viable than every single spec from a pure DPS class.

    Put another way, the bottom of the meters pretty much always needs to be the "bad" specs from pure DPS classes.
    Since when? Where is it law where those specs to be the only ones that are viable? And why do what you call "bad specs" have to be bad? This is utterly ridiculous and nobody always need to be the "bad" specs. You are basically setting your own arbitrary rules.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Some classes are overperforming so you dont need a buff, everyone is 280 ilvl can clear the raid if they are skilled enough with any reasonable raid setup. When you dont compared yourself to a warlock the difference is on average 10-15% between most classes at most, that is reasonable.

    If a raid wont take you then its not worth joining in the first place, single target damage matters sometimes alot more than classes being able to cheese the meters, BM is designed to be mostly single target, blizz could do something to give it more cleave dmg.

    Buffing classes actually nerfs current content, the classes are already performing far beyond the raids needs to clear it.
    Only because of gear. How about at the start of the tier? Nobody should have to wait until they massively out gear it before they are even taken in a raid.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Only because of gear. How about at the start of the tier? Nobody should have to wait until they massively out gear it before they are even taken in a raid.
    Without the tier bonuses then the OP classes are not nearly as good so the difference is small so what are you complaining about, everyone knows some classes are just scaled too good or thier set bonuses are just OP, single target damage is still needed and is very important, on an AOE heavy fight BM should be miles behind on total damage.

    Buffs dont solve the actual problem and every class has way more performance than in needed to clear content.
    STAR-J4R9-YYK4 use this for 5000 credits in star citizen

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