Poll: Do you like the Drac'thyr Evoker?

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  1. #461
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    You are the one who told me the lead designer was trans.
    Because you asked.

    You're making an argument fallacy of speaking as though your assumptions are fact, when you simply have no evidence for that.
    No evidence of what? That major videogames have art teams led by a senior developer that work together to decide the direction of major game features?

    Are you serious?



    The fundamental difference between Dracthyr and Worgen is that there is a class for Dracthry to embrace their draconic lore.
    - Assumption that the class will embrace their lore. It could, or it may end up a generic caster that has a few dragon spells. We won't know until we get more information.

    The Evoker ability set is all about being a dragon, since the Dracthyr form will feel more meaningful and complete than the Worgen form ever did.
    - Assumption, see above. You hope they will be, but have no evidence that is what will happen. They may end up just as much of a skinsuit as worgen did.
    I suggest you watch some videos from the devs. That's exactly what they're doing with the Evoker class.

    What part of this do you not understand that the person being trans has next to nothing to do with the art direction of the Dracthyr or the Visage forms?
    - Assumption that it has nothing to do with it. Maybe it doesn't, maybe its 100% the reason. We have no way of telling and are judging based on what we see.
    How would a single trans artist dictate the entire direction of a major game feature if the higher-ups didn't want that direction or supported that direction? What, you believe that every person working on WoW is trans with an agenda to purposely piss off their audience?

    That's what makes it transphobic; The fact that some posters believe that the decision to design a major feature of a major MMO is the decision of one person, and one person alone.
    - Assuming people's phobias due to their assumptions, when their assumptions do have some reason to be believed if the story about Alex Afrasbi (sp) steering the content of WoW for 2-3 expansions due to his own interest in ruining Sylvanas' character is to be believed. Again, we don't know, all we see is the work produced.
    Again, if you honestly believe that a single person has complete control over the design on a major feature in one the biggest games on the planet, you really have no idea how game development works, and you're allowing your personal biases to cloud common sense.

    (Which in turn makes your example here as ridiculous and irrelelvant as your previous one) In reality, it's a decision made by an entire team of people, and has to be signed off by the highest levels of the development team.
    - Assumption. You don't know who made the decision. It may have been made by 1 designer and rubber stamped by her superiors, or it may have been made by 100 people working collaboratively. We don't know. Other people are assuming that if it was more people, it would have turned out better are also making an assumption.
    Except its well known that major features for WoW are developed by teams, not one person. It is also well known that in large studios, major features go through multiple levels of approval before being greelit. So no, it isn't an assumption. This artist was almost assuredly given a design direction to go in, and their work was approved by a team of senior artist and approved by a senior art director which in turn was very likely approved again by another team of senior developers. If it was not approved at any step in that process, the artist would have been instructed to revamp the design.

    I don't see anyone blaming Ion for how these characters look
    - Then you aren't looking very hard or are seeing what you want to see..... Even I've seen those posts as Ion gets a lot of blame all the time.
    Yeah, but not for this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Temporaldrift View Post
    I’m not suggesting you should attack anyone for any type of art, but it for sure is not without the realm of possibility that the art style of heavily inflicted by a person who is trans. If they don’t believe in or subscribe to the idea of things should look ‘masculine’ or ‘feminine’ then it isn’t a wild idea to imagine they had that mindset going into designing the model.

    I mean people did the exact same thing when female characters were all being designed with massive breasts and they weren’t exactly wrong for calling that out.
    And once again, what this artist produced was only produced at the behest of Blizzard. Major features for WoW are approved by a team, not one singular person.

    I would recommend that before people comment on stuff like this, they should really learn how the process works. A single person does not completely control the direction or appearance of a major feature in a major video game.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2022-05-01 at 06:26 PM.

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Because you asked.



    No evidence of what? That major videogames have art teams led by a senior developer that work together to decide the direction of major game features?

    Are you serious?





    I suggest you watch some videos from the devs. That's exactly what they're doing with the Evoker class.



    How would a single trans artist dictate the entire direction of a major game feature if the higher-ups didn't want that direction or supported that direction? What, you believe that every person working on WoW is trans with an agenda to purposely piss off their audience?



    Again, if you honestly believe that a single person has complete control over the design or a major feature in one the biggest games on the planet, you really have no idea how game development works, and you're allowing your personal biases to cloud common sense.



    Except its well known that major features for WoW are developed by teams, not one person. It is also well known that in large studios, major features go through multiple levels of approval before being greelit. So no, it isn't an assumption. This artist was almost assuredly given a design direction to go in, and their work was approved by a team of senior artist and approved by a senior art director which in turn was very likely approved again by another team of senior developers. If it was not approved at any step in that process, the artist would have been instructed to revamp the design.



    Yeah, but not for this.

    - - - Updated - - -



    And once again, what this artist produced was only produced at the behest of Blizzard. Major features for WoW are approved by a team, not one singular person.

    I would recommend that before people comment on stuff like this, they should really learn how the process works. A single person does not completely control the direction or appearance of a major feature in a major video game.
    Do YOU know for sure how the process works? You’re talking a whole bunch about these things you know 100% about when the only way you would know this is if you worked for blizzard.

    Also, you don’t need to have absolute 100% full control in order to influence the direction it goes. And I would take a wild guess and say the lead artist probably has a fairly significant say in the direction the art is going.

    Just sayin, you can be condescending all you know but acting like you know this process in and out and act like it’s absolutely impossible for the LEAD ARTIST to influence the direction it goes is just ignorant imo.

  3. #463
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Temporaldrift View Post
    Do YOU know for sure how the process works? You’re talking a whole bunch about these things you know 100% about when the only way you would know this is if you worked for blizzard.
    I've worked in the videogame industry, and I've worked for a few major studios. It's unheard of for lone artists to completely dictate the direction of major features on the level of a new race and new class in MMOs without input and approval from multiple sources. It simply doesn't happen, especially on something as massive as WoW.

    Also, you don’t need to have absolute 100% full control in order to influence the direction it goes. And I would take a wild guess and say the lead artist probably has a fairly significant say in the direction the art is going.

    Just sayin, you can be condescending all you know but acting like you know this process in and out and act like it’s absolutely impossible for the LEAD ARTIST to influence the direction it goes is just ignorant imo.
    It's absolutely ridiculous to believe that the artist who designed the Dracthyr had any influence beyond their personal creativity heavily dictated by their managers. Again, at any point if their higher ups felt that the artist was betraying the direction they wanted to take the new WoW race, they would have been told to restart the design process, or at a more extreme level (if they simply can't reach the goal put forth by the team) be removed from the concept entirely and replaced with another artist.

    That artist works for Blizzard, not the other way around.

    Also FYI, Lead Artists work in teams, and work under Art Directors.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2022-05-01 at 06:49 PM.

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmic Janitor View Post
    I mean the meh is kind of implicit here. Not liking them doesn't mean you hate them.
    Doesn't mean i hate them doesn't mean i dislike them, doesn't mean i like them, doesn't mean i love them.
    Ship has been abandoned.
    ---

    NextUI for XIV


  5. #465
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I've worked in the videogame industry, and I've worked for a few major studios. It's unheard of for lone artists to completely dictate the direction of major features on the level of race and classes in MMOs without input and approval from multiple sources. It simply doesn't happen, especially one something as massive as WoW.



    It's absolutely ridiculous to believe that the artist who designed the Dracthyr had any influence beyond their personal creativity heavily dictated by their managers. Again, at any point if their higher ups felt that the artist was betraying the direction they wanted to take the new WoW race, they would have been told to restart the design process, or at a more extreme level (if they simply can't reach the goal put forth by the team) be removed from the concept entirely and replaced with another artist.

    That artist works for Blizzard, not the other way around.

    Also FYI, Lead Artists work in teams, and work under Art Directors.
    I don’t think a single person here said or even hinted at the thought that this person was ‘dictating’ a single thing. Even so that isn’t what I said at all so I have no idea why you’re arguing under this goal post. I literally said it isn’t a wild idea to suggest they heavily influenced the direction the art took. Sure higher ups may have approved the art, but I never said that they didn’t. If you even look at blizzards job description for the position it plainly states that their duties include directing the art team on the direction of character design.

    Also I just want to point this out really quick

    I've worked in the videogame industry, and I've worked for a few major studios.
    That’s really cool and all, but if you didn’t specifically work for blizzard then this doesn’t mean much of anything. Working in my field, going from business to business it’s staggering to see the differences in how different companies operate.

    It's absolutely ridiculous to believe that the artist who designed the Dracthyr had any influence beyond their personal creativity
    Yeah, that’s exactly what I’m saying though. Their personal creativity could have heavily influenced the final product. Like, I don’t know if you realize this but you sort of just agreed with me lol.

  6. #466
    I feel like Blizzard missed an opportunity to introduce more flavor to the world. I mean, more customization and flavor is never a bad thing, and I think with this new class they could've rather easily given the player the option to be a Bronze, Red, Blue, Green or Black dragon fully.

    What I mean by that is that, rather than have the class being some generic Captain Planet drawing from all four, you could choose to theme your spell casts around one of the Dragonflights (e.g. choosing red and you'd get fire-themed visual effects, and bronze might be golden with some sand-y particle effects)

    I think that'd give the class some very desirable flavor, because I feel it takes away from their identity that they don't really have a flight theme and just use spells from all schools

  7. #467
    Imagine waiting years for dragon race and class and then you end up with androgynous furry fantasy in the form of spider lizard. What went wrong, who fucked up so hard, why would chief artist allow this unwarcrafty shit to even pass concept stage. Is this what dimension shift is all about and I ended up in the shittiest version where Blizzard creates literal UwU.

  8. #468
    Initially I was happy to see them introduced to the game. I have always been a fan of the old Breath of Fire JRPG series from the 90's. The idea of playing a dragon in human form with the ability to transform for certain combat bonuses and abilities has always been interesting to me. However. After looking at these models as they are now, I am not so impressed. As many have stated they are very frail looking. If they just made their humanoid forms with a few more options into the game that would have been great. Allow players to stay in those forms as long as they like even while in combat, but allow them to transform into legit dragons for a certain duration. If not in combat then it could be Indefinite, or while in combat maybe just a certain time period to use and gain bonuses to abilities and damage, etc.

    TLDR; Too Frail, Not a proper true Dragon form. Not enough options. Feels like they tried to make them too androgynous looking to maybe tick off that box, or what I don't know.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Au-burn View Post
    Imagine waiting years for dragon race and class and then you end up with androgynous furry fantasy in the form of spider lizard. What went wrong, who fucked up so hard, why would chief artist allow this unwarcrafty shit to even pass concept stage. Is this what dimension shift is all about and I ended up in the shittiest version where Blizzard creates literal UwU.
    Sadly I have to agree. You kinda hit the nail on the head. Initially I was very excited but then that excitement became tempered when I saw how the Dracthyr actually look.

  9. #469
    So far? Not really.

    Doesn't feel like the first hero caster class ever in the franchise. Almost 20 years... It feels like how to train *cough* play a dragon. They could just give that its own spec. I want fire heals, no recycle druid moves. I want sand moves for ranged DPS hourglasses and time. Sand moves you could reference Gaara in Naruto. It works and is popular. (Also we will be getting lots of sand movies next coming years..) I loved the idea of an Earth tank but it seems like they don't want to listen...

    Some people are trying to silence people in this thread for asking for the things they want. Yet the concept we got failed to blow up the internet and interests of millions. Can we do something more fun please and possibly listen to the audience. Some people are trying to help. Not some weird bag of ticks that is mostly how to play a dragon.
    Last edited by Kixxenn; 2022-05-01 at 07:52 PM.

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by Au-burn View Post
    Imagine waiting years for dragon race and class and then you end up with androgynous furry fantasy in the form of spider lizard. What went wrong, who fucked up so hard, why would chief artist allow this unwarcrafty shit to even pass concept stage. Is this what dimension shift is all about and I ended up in the shittiest version where Blizzard creates literal UwU.
    Agreed.
    I wanted some form of reptilian race for a while, be it Naga, Sethrak, Drakonids, etc, and from what they've shown the Dracthyr are a disappointment.
    Here's to hoping that the other torso options that they 'haven't shown' are better.

    But at least they didn't go the traditional blizzard route and give them lizard titties.

  11. #471
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Temporaldrift View Post
    I don’t think a single person here said or even hinted at the thought that this person was ‘dictating’ a single thing. Even so that isn’t what I said at all so I have no idea why you’re arguing under this goal post. I literally said it isn’t a wild idea to suggest they heavily influenced the direction the art took. Sure higher ups may have approved the art, but I never said that they didn’t. If you even look at blizzards job description for the position it plainly states that their duties include directing the art team on the direction of character design.
    Which report to the art director (or art directors) for final approval, and in turn, the art director has to get approval from senior designers.

    The problem is that you're once again assuming that this person has some sort of influence that they don't have.

    Also I just want to point this out really quick

    That’s really cool and all, but if you didn’t specifically work for blizzard then this doesn’t mean much of anything. Working in my field, going from business to business it’s staggering to see the differences in how different companies operate.
    If you honestly believe that an entity as large as Blizzard isn't operating under the conventions of what modern gaming companies operate under, I don't know what to tell you. Again, there are simply certain things that don't happen in large studios, and having a major feature being controlled by a single person is one of them.

    Yeah, that’s exactly what I’m saying though.
    No it isn't, because you're giving this artist influence that they don't have.

    Their personal creativity could have heavily influenced the final product. Like, I don’t know if you realize this but you sort of just agreed with me lol.
    Their personal creativity which was sought after by the senior development staff, and agreed upon and supported by multiple parties in every step of creation. In short, this isn't a direction dictated by a lone artist, it is a direction dictated by Blizzard.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kixxenn View Post
    Some people are trying to silence people in this thread for asking for the things they want. Yet the concept we got failed to blow up the internet and interests of millions. Can we do something more fun please and possibly listen to the audience. Some people are trying to help. Not some weird bag of ticks that is mostly how to play a dragon.
    In all seriousness, if you're trying to enact some actual change in the design, complaining about it here won't solve anything. You're better off complaining on Twitter or the official forums.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2022-05-01 at 07:57 PM.

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Which report to the art director (or art directors) for final approval, and in turn, the art director has to get approval from senior designers.

    The problem is that you're once again assuming that this person has some sort of influence that they don't have.



    If you honestly believe that an entity as large as Blizzard isn't operating under the conventions of what modern gaming companies operate under, I don't know what to tell you. Again, there are simply certain things that don't happen in large studios, and having a major feature being controlled by a single person is one of them.



    No it isn't, because you're giving this artist influence that they don't have.



    Their personal creativity which was sought after by the senior development staff, and agreed upon and supported by multiple parties in every step of creation. In short, this isn't a direction dictated by a lone artist, it is a direction dictated by Blizzard.
    Everything you just said I addressed in my last post and yet you still are using words like dictate. Also you keep saying “BUT ITS APPROVED BY HIGHER UPS”

    Again, just like I said in my last post

    I literally said it isn’t a wild idea to suggest they heavily influenced the direction the art took. Sure higher ups may have approved the art, but I never said that they didn’t
    You didn’t add anything to what I said, you keep going on this rant as if I’m arguing that this person created it by themselves when that’s not what I said. I said heavily influenced the direction. Are you even reading what I’m saying or are you in full rage mode so you’re just repeating yourself.

    If you honestly believe that an entity as large as Blizzard isn't operating under the conventions of what modern gaming companies operate under, I don't know what to tell you.
    You don’t need to tell me anything because we both haven’t worked for blizzard. Only one of us is claiming to know how they operate.

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    If you honestly believe that an entity as large as Blizzard isn't operating under the conventions of what modern gaming companies operate under, I don't know what to tell you. Again, there are simply certain things that don't happen in large studios, and having a major feature being controlled by a single person is one of them.
    Yep, 1 person cannot affect that much change at a company like Blizzard.....

    https://www.dexerto.com/world-of-war...y-wow-1747186/

    https://kaylriene.com/2022/01/25/syl...y-of-warcraft/


    And I get it, you're not actually reading what people are writing, but rather assuming what you want them to say and replying to that. It is called a strawman argument and you are bordering on Cathy Newman "So what you're saying is...." territory.


    Every post for the past few pages that deals with you says "its possible" "its not a wild suggestion" "it seems likely", where your responses are "IT IS", "you don't know", "of course it works like this". You keep saying that other people are making assumptions, but to quote a great movie:

    "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."



    Given your past work on trying to provide ideas (that I liked) for a dragon class in WoW, I was content to humor your sudden switch to support of this offering of Blizzard's, however at this point you argue like a teenager who is full of certainty but woefully unprepared with information. I do not believe you've worked for any gaming companies, or likely even had a real job at this point (my assumption, given how often you post on everything, is that you are at most a late teenager who has no time constraints).

    I get now why your name is basically a joke around these forums and people treat you like they do. You've earned it.

  14. #474
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Temporaldrift View Post
    Everything you just said I addressed in my last post and yet you still are using words like dictate. Also you keep saying “BUT ITS APPROVED BY HIGHER UPS”

    Again, just like I said in my last post

    You didn’t add anything to what I said, you keep going on this rant as if I’m arguing that this person created it by themselves when that’s not what I said. I said heavily influenced the direction. Are you even reading what I’m saying or are you in full rage mode so you’re just repeating yourself.
    And I'll say it one more time; One person does not control, dictate, or influence how a major feature is going to look in a major videogame like WoW. So once again, the fact that this particular artist is trans is completely irrelevant to the direction Blizzard took the design for the Dracthyr race.

    If you don't understand that, I don't know know what else to tell you.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2022-05-01 at 09:38 PM.

  15. #475
    The Lightbringer Polybius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kixxenn View Post
    So far? Not really.

    Doesn't feel like the first hero caster class ever in the franchise. Almost 20 years... It feels like how to train *cough* play a dragon. They could just give that its own spec. I want fire heals, no recycle druid moves. I want sand moves for ranged DPS hourglasses and time. Sand moves you could reference Gaara in Naruto. It works and is popular. (Also we will be getting lots of sand movies next coming years..) I loved the idea of an Earth tank but it seems like they don't want to listen...

    Some people are trying to silence people in this thread for asking for the things they want. Yet the concept we got failed to blow up the internet and interests of millions. Can we do something more fun please and possibly listen to the audience. Some people are trying to help. Not some weird bag of ticks that is mostly how to play a dragon.
    Hopefully they show more abilities and their rotations. So far I’m not convinced of their synergy.

    Said it before that a drakonid-like race like the one in HotS would’ve been convincing, they’d play the role of any aspect based off selected class. The only magic underrepresented by current classes is time magic. Red aspect somewhat workable with disc priest.

  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    And I'll say it one more time; One person does not control, dictate, or influence how a major feature is going to look in a major videogame like WoW. So once again, the fact that this particular artist is trans is completely irrelevant to the direction Blizzard took the design for the Dracthyr race.

    If you don't understand that, I don't know know what else to tell you.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You do know that there's a massive difference influence-wise between a Senior Creative Director, and an artist right?
    Lol I love how I’m straight up telling you “no one is saying they are dictating anything you are just repeating yourself because you’re clearly upset”

    And you go straight into “ILL REPEAT MYSELF NOONE IS DICTATING THE…”

  17. #477
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    Given your past work on trying to provide ideas (that I liked) for a dragon class in WoW, I was content to humor your sudden switch to support of this offering of Blizzard's...

    Considering that this offering is 90% of what I wanted, I'm perfectly content with what is being offered. Obviously others feel differently, and that's fine. At this point I no longer care about continuing this discussion, I'll just sit back and enjoy the steady stream of new information about the Dracthyr Evoker; The Dragon class I have desired for quite some time.

    As I said earlier, I hope people who are not as content eventually get what they want, whatever and whenever that may be.

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by Zodiark View Post
    Sadly I have to agree. You kinda hit the nail on the head. Initially I was very excited but then that excitement became tempered when I saw how the Dracthyr actually look.
    I lost all joy. I love the class idea but I hate the race.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    Agreed.
    I wanted some form of reptilian race for a while, be it Naga, Sethrak, Drakonids, etc, and from what they've shown the Dracthyr are a disappointment.
    Here's to hoping that the other torso options that they 'haven't shown' are better.

    But at least they didn't go the traditional blizzard route and give them lizard titties.
    Tbh dragon tits would be a price I'm willing to pay for two largely different models with one being masculine and other feminine.

  19. #479
    I'm cool with it.
    Spellcasters aren't supposed to be bulky anyways.

    If other classes are introduced, then sure allow other bodytypes, but as of now the race and the class are the same thing.

  20. #480
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinnamilk View Post
    I'm cool with it.
    Spellcasters aren't supposed to be bulky anyways..

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