Poll: Do you like the Drac'thyr Evoker?

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  1. #101
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    You should get them checked then.

    Visibly completely different upper body positioning, arm lengths, leg section lengths, shoulder size, hands and fingers, body width, etc.

    https://i.imgur.com/ZXt1hK3.png
    https://i.imgur.com/apAnYPc.png
    ... Those are the exact same poses and skeletons, varying only in body/limb thickness.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    You should get them checked then.

    Visibly completely different upper body positioning, arm lengths, leg section lengths, shoulder size, hands and fingers, body width, etc.
    https://i.imgur.com/ZXt1hK3.png
    https://i.imgur.com/apAnYPc.png



    I'm sorry but if you can't see it then you're being willfully obtuse.
    Last edited by Villager720; 2022-04-27 at 03:59 PM.

  3. #103
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    So you take PR speech and interviews over the actual developers' words and canon lore of the game that clearly state that dracthyr are not dragons because they're hybrids? That's like saying Draconids are dragons. Or that dragonmen are dragons.

    I follow the canon lore of the game, that clearly and unambiguously states the dracthyr are not dragons.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    People here should perhaps do a bit more research before making sweeping generalizations about a class/race they've only seen a couple of images and videos about.
    Maybe you should take your own advice, then.

    Some of your statements above are a prime example of not having a clue about what is going on with this class.
    I only stated facts.
    • Dracthyr not being actual dragons: fact. They're hybrids, not dragons.
    • Dracthyr being too thin: fact. Scale a dragon down to their size and compare their bodies' thickness.
    • Dracthyr doesn't look like a WoW dragon: fact. Put both (dracthyr and dragon) side-by-side. The dracthyr resemble more the Elder Scrolls' argonians with a bit more color and wings than an actual dragon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    ... Those are the exact same poses and skeletons, varying only in body/limb thickness.
    They really aren't. If you can't see the differences in structure and positioning, there's not much I can do to help you.

    Look at the shoulders into the upper arms--on the meta they go straight out and then forwards, the palms are outwards, the hands (at the sides, reach all the way past the ground nearly to the knees; on the Dracthyr the upper arms go backwards, the arms themselves are significantly shorter, the hands are facing palm straight down.

    The upper leg of the meta is extremely long, then the backwards bend is short and the bottom leg is long. On the Dracthyr the upper leg is quite short and then the middle and bottom sections are both long. The legs are turned more outwards (look at the direction the front foot is facing for both, nearly towards the camera for the meta and firmly diagonally right for the Dracthyr) and the stance is spread out farther because the Dracthyr is much taller proportionally so the triangle formed by the legs has a much milder angle. The meta has a very stocky, short torso, its groin is practically in its belly button and chest right above that, the Dracthyr's torso is normal humanoid proportions.

    They are not the same skeleton. They just have vaguely similar combat ready stances and the same backwards-bending legs. They aren't any closer together than ANY model that uses backwards bending legs. Draenei, Worgen, Satyr, Sylvar. Apparently people just have trouble telling anything with extra joints apart.

    You can see here that Dracthyr are literally closer to the Sylvar model/skeleton than the meta one.


  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I would consider a huge, winged, reptilian creature spewing fire to be a dragon. Wouldn't you?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Well that's just the thing; Believing the race will flop because of restrictions is nonsense. The restriction is in place in order to convey the fantasy of being a dragon. If you don't want to play as a dragon with draconic abilities, why would you roll a Dracthyr in the first place? To be a huge reptile with wings you can't use?

    I also highly doubt its "half of the players". It's more likely a tiny vocal minority who were set to complain about the new race and class regardless of what it was. Once the class is released and playable, the vast majority of this will settle down and go away completely.



    A laughable comment. The race and the class work in tandem to convey the fantasy. Again, if you don't want to play a dragon, why would you roll a Dracthyr Evoker in the first place?



    Saying the the iteration is "extremely hideous" when you haven't seen the vast majority of customizable options is why such feedback shouldn't be taken seriously until we get a more final iteration.
    As a long time shaman player, I've seen that if you don't make all the noise you can as soon as issue appears, Blizz will ignore and say everything is fine, till the end of the expansion with the data proving they were wrong all along...

    Restrictions sometimes work, in their latest experiments (lifting race/class restrictions) we can see that more choices for players are always received in a positive light. While the restrictions to convey fantasy usually end in backlash.

    The customization could help current model but if the base Is wrong no matter how much paint you throw at it, the result will be ugly.

    A Lot of people will want to try the new class, to try something shiny not for any dragon fantasy. Tying class and race they're making sure if one fails, both will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andromedes View Post
    Welcome to the Alliance, faction of compromises and unfulfilled desires. Want Vrykul? Here is compromise in form of kul tiran half giants we never heard of. Wanna High elves? Here is compromise in form of void elves we never heard of. Wanna broken draenei? awww fuck it
    About ganking ("world pvp") being dead now
    Quote Originally Posted by Sliske View Post
    Maybe you could wear a mask and push over little kids while they walk home from school instead?

  6. #106
    For me it is again void elf/high elf fiasco. Again, we are settling with compromise. Another asspulled race instead of the real thing. I am already repeating myself, but everything could work even with quadrupedal dragon form, if they put mind into it.

    edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by rpdrichard View Post
    snip
    haha lol, i am just again talking about compromises and you happen to have my quote in you signature. I feel honored

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    They really aren't. If you can't see the differences in structure and positioning, there's not much I can do to help you.

    Look at the shoulders into the upper arms--on the meta they go straight out and then forwards, the palms are outwards, the hands (at the sides, reach all the way past the ground nearly to the knees; on the Dracthyr the upper arms go backwards, the arms themselves are significantly shorter, the hands are facing palm straight down.

    The upper leg of the meta is extremely long, then the backwards bend is short and the bottom leg is long. On the Dracthyr the upper leg is quite short and then the middle and bottom sections are both long. The legs are turned more outwards (look at the direction the front foot is facing for both, nearly towards the camera for the meta and firmly diagonally right for the Dracthyr) and the stance is spread out farther because the Dracthyr is much taller proportionally so the triangle formed by the legs has a much milder angle. The meta has a very stocky, short torso, its groin is practically in its belly button and chest right above that, the Dracthyr's torso is normal humanoid proportions.

    They are not the same skeleton. They just have vaguely similar combat ready stances and the same backwards-bending legs. They aren't any closer together than ANY model that uses backwards bending legs. Draenei, Worgen, Satyr, Sylvar. Apparently people just have trouble telling anything with extra joints apart.

    You can see here that Dracthyr are literally closer to the Sylvar model/skeleton than the meta one.

    Except thats not how the metamorphosis demon hunter idly stands.

    This is a proper image to illuminate how they're 100% the same rig with just new body dimensions.

  8. #108
    I'd prefer a new class that has 3 specs and more race options. So far, I don't like it.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Villager720 View Post
    Except thats not how the metamorphosis demon hunter idly stands.

    This is a proper image to illuminate how they're 100% the same rig with just new body dimensions.
    It's how the VENGEANCE stands, you absolute dork. You know, the model YOU linked claiming it was the same thing because it was "totally the same animation"?



    But no, the havoc version isn't any closer.



    You can't have the same rig "with new dimensions" if you're having to change the dimension you're having to change the rig. Literally nothing matches up size wise, not the torso, the abdomen, the leg sections, the arms, the hands, the finger lengths, the shoulder placement, the necks, the head.

    Do you know what it's called when you have to set a new line for every piece of the skeleton? A new rig.

  10. #110
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    So you take PR speech and interviews over the actual developers' words and canon lore of the game that clearly state that dracthyr are not dragons because they're hybrids? That's like saying Draconids are dragons. Or that dragonmen are dragons.
    Uh, those are from the developers. Pretty much all of the developers say that they are dragons, and the race and class gives us the fantasy of being a dragon.

    Can you provide a link where a developer says that Dracthyrs are NOT dragons?


    I follow the canon lore of the game, that clearly and unambiguously states the dracthyr are not dragons.
    Blizzard controls the lore. Blizzard is fully capable of expanding the lore to include Dracthyr as dragons. Which they apparently have done.


    I only stated facts.
    • Dracthyr not being actual dragons: fact. They're hybrids, not dragons.
    • Dracthyr being too thin: fact. Scale a dragon down to their size and compare their bodies' thickness.
    • Dracthyr doesn't look like a WoW dragon: fact. Put both (dracthyr and dragon) side-by-side. The dracthyr resemble more the Elder Scrolls' argonians with a bit more color and wings than an actual dragon.
    None of these are facts.

    1. Blizzard disagrees.
    2. Opinion, and we haven't seen them in-game to draw that conclusion.
    3. What a "WoW Dragon" looks like is completely up for interpretation.

  11. #111
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I'm sure you would. That doesn't make your opinion any less silly.
    Yes, you ask me, why i would i speak for everyone? And the race is silly not the opinion, they look silly.

  12. #112
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    And the race is silly not the opinion, they look silly.
    Uh, that is an opinion. Especially since you haven't seen them in their completed form yet.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rpdrichard View Post
    As a long time shaman player, I've seen that if you don't make all the noise you can as soon as issue appears, Blizz will ignore and say everything is fine, till the end of the expansion with the data proving they were wrong all along...

    Restrictions sometimes work, in their latest experiments (lifting race/class restrictions) we can see that more choices for players are always received in a positive light. While the restrictions to convey fantasy usually end in backlash.
    I can't agree with that. Look at Monks; They're available to all races, yet their generality makes them feel generic. Meanwhile, the most popular class in the game, Druids have the highest amount of race restrictions. Why? Because it enhances the class fantasy.

    The customization could help current model but if the base Is wrong no matter how much paint you throw at it, the result will be ugly.
    Again, I would wait for a more finalized version to make that claim. Here's is how the faces look in high-res;



    I would hardly call those faces hideous.

    A Lot of people will want to try the new class, to try something shiny not for any dragon fantasy. Tying class and race they're making sure if one fails, both will.
    Again, see the Druid example, it completely depends on how well Blizzard can convey the fantasy of being a dragon. If they can accomplish it (which I believe they can), the restrictions aren't going to matter.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Andromedes View Post
    For me it is again void elf/high elf fiasco. Again, we are settling with compromise. Another asspulled race instead of the real thing. I am already repeating myself, but everything could work even with quadrupedal dragon form, if they put mind into it.

    edit:

    haha lol, i am just again talking about compromises and you happen to have my quote in you signature. I feel honored
    Problem is Blizz sucks at compromising. Their version of compromise Is my way or the highway, till the data shows the backlash and they bandaid the problem, that's why this is the right time to be vocal about the new race.

    Signature: You summarized the issue with compromise from Blizz so perfectly, that it applies all over again with the new race.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andromedes View Post
    Welcome to the Alliance, faction of compromises and unfulfilled desires. Want Vrykul? Here is compromise in form of kul tiran half giants we never heard of. Wanna High elves? Here is compromise in form of void elves we never heard of. Wanna broken draenei? awww fuck it
    About ganking ("world pvp") being dead now
    Quote Originally Posted by Sliske View Post
    Maybe you could wear a mask and push over little kids while they walk home from school instead?

  14. #114
    Interesting to see the 50/50 split in the poll. Overall, I'm really excited to play a Dracthyr Evoker.

    What I like:
    1. How close the model gets to capturing the dragon fantasy. While not being as effective as a traditional four-legged dragon, I do think the current model is more effective than, say, a Drakonid. The Drakonids are awesome but feel more like a "dragonman" hybrid to me. The Dracthyr feels like a regular dragon just stood up on its back two legs. I like it.
    2. How colorful it is. While some of the visage customizations seem goofy, other previewed options seem like they work really well.
    3. The fact they created a unique class for the race. I don't want to be a dragon that has to fight with swords, or a dragon casting traditional spells; I want to be a dragon breathing fire, fighting with my claws and wings. From what we've seen, I think the evoker is an effective way to get as close to a dragon fantasy as possible.

    What I think could be improved:
    1. Body plans/structure. I don't mind the slender build, but I think increased customization is ALWAYS a good thing for players, so I'm supportive of requests to add bulkier body options.
    2. More ferocious-looking face options. I would love to have Deathwing-chin options. Also fangs that constantly jut out of the mouth even when it's closed, like in-game dragons or real life crocodilians do.
    3. In-combat visage form. While I support the Evoker class only being available to the Dracthyr race, I don't see anything wrong with enabling visage form in combat so that the class is a tiny bit more accessible by players who don't enjoy the Dracthyr form. As others have suggested, just let the visage form shift into dragon form for certain dragon spells, a la metamorphosis.

    Overall, pretty excited.

  15. #115
    Ion just confirmed the 3rd Black dragonflight spec is very unlikely as this is focused on spellcasting.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by bruxx View Post
    I have my gripes with certain design decisions, but I'm planning to main it, provided the gameplay is anything like I expect.
    Same although there is a certain posters obsessiveness/knowitallness who is starting to make me hate everything about it.

  17. #117
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Uh, those are from the developers. Pretty much all of the developers say that they are dragons, and the race and class gives us the fantasy of being a dragon.
    In interviews and PR speech. In the deep-dive and the actual lore of the race, they're not dragons.

    Can you provide a link where a developer says that Dracthyrs are NOT dragons?
    The simple fact you have to ask shows you completely ignore what doesn't go along your narrative:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    From Blizzard (again):

    At 40:39 in the expansion announcement video, we hear "Neltharion saw those primalists that were kind of breaking away from the Aspects and what they wanted. And so, in those first experiments, he took the essence of dragons- their strength, their nobility, their wisdom- and he combined it with that scrappiness, that adaptability the mortal races had.

    Drakthyr are not dragons. They can be considered descendants of dragons, but they're not dragons. Just like humans aren't vrykul and elves aren't trolls.

    This isn't an opinion. That's the fact.
    1. Blizzard disagrees.
    You're wrong. They do. If you watched the deep-dive and learned the lore of the race, you'd see that. But you ignore what goes against your narrative.

    2. Opinion, and we haven't seen them in-game to draw that conclusion.
    It's not opinion, it's fact. And we have seen them in-game. Again, did you not watch the deep-dive video where they show us the dracthyr in-game?

    3. What a "WoW Dragon" looks like is completely up for interpretation.
    It's not, though. Dragons are already defined in the game and lore. We have dragons in the game. We have seen them. We know how they look like.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    You can see here that Dracthyr are literally closer to the Sylvar model/skeleton than the meta one.

    https://i.imgur.com/Kw65mdw.png
    Which are based off the draenei skeleton so we still have reused skeletons, even if what you say is correct.

    But I still believe that the dracthyr's dragonic form is based off the DH's meta.

    I guess we'll see once the open beta starts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  18. #118
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    In interviews and PR speech. In the deep-dive and the actual lore of the race, they're not dragons.
    The first quote where they say that they are playable dragons comes from the deep-dive.

    The simple fact you have to ask shows you completely ignore what doesn't go along your narrative:
    Where in there does it literally say that Dracthyrs are not dragons?

    I’ve provided a quote from the dev deep-dive where they say that the Dracthyr ARE dragons.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Uh, that is an opinion. Especially since you haven't seen them in their completed form yet.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I can't agree with that. Look at Monks; They're available to all races, yet their generality makes them feel generic. Meanwhile, the most popular class in the game, Druids have the highest amount of race restrictions. Why? Because it enhances the class fantasy.



    Again, I would wait for a more finalized version to make that claim. Here's is how the faces look in high-res;



    I would hardly call those faces hideous.



    Again, see the Druid example, it completely depends on how well Blizzard can convey the fantasy of being a dragon. If they can accomplish it (which I believe they can), the restrictions aren't going to matter.
    The heads doesn't look that bad alone, but with the proportions of the whole body they look bad. Also, this Is personal opinion, they look too friendly not like dragons but happy lizards.

    Druids have needed the biggest number of race restrictions lifted, and the responde to that has been overall positive.

    I would dare to say they're aware of the initial bad reception, to the point they announced a presentation to specially adress new race concerns in today's Q&A
    Quote Originally Posted by Andromedes View Post
    Welcome to the Alliance, faction of compromises and unfulfilled desires. Want Vrykul? Here is compromise in form of kul tiran half giants we never heard of. Wanna High elves? Here is compromise in form of void elves we never heard of. Wanna broken draenei? awww fuck it
    About ganking ("world pvp") being dead now
    Quote Originally Posted by Sliske View Post
    Maybe you could wear a mask and push over little kids while they walk home from school instead?

  20. #120
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpdrichard View Post
    The heads doesn't look that bad alone, but with the proportions of the whole body they look bad. Also, this Is personal opinion, they look too friendly not like dragons but happy lizards.
    Okay, but don't you think they will have varied proportions and more stern faces? They've already stated that there will be a more bulky option, and all WoW races have more "evil" facial appearances.

    Druids have needed the biggest number of race restrictions lifted, and the responde to that has been overall positive.
    They still have the lowest number of available races by far, yet they have the highest level of class fantasy. That alongside their versatility is why they're the most popular class.

    The only thing that could potentially hurt the Evoker is the lack of a third spec. However, due to the sheer glut of tank and melee specs in WoW, even that may not be a deterrent. Also them starting at such a high level (and completely bypassing Shadowlands) gives them a huge leg up on other classes.

    I would dare to say they're aware of the initial bad reception, to the point they announced a presentation to specially adress new race concerns in today's Q&A
    Well we'll see what they're going to talk about. I think most of it is going to be clarification instead of new revelations.

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