How did we defeat the Jailer without anyone's help???

[Lord Pebbleton]

Goes right along with WoW story competence these days.. 8 million IQ superbeing who has molded the events of millennia to enact his master plan gets beaten by Scooby-Doo and the gang from 1 small planet in the universe because the old guy who got his ass kicked before remembered at the literal last second we needed a magic hat in order to make his magic useless. Oh, and it turns out he was just a robot and was doing the whole thing because "we are not prepared"

100% agree. I will reiterate what I said in another thread - you either have the nuanced big bad with a purpose, or the cruel big bad that just wants to inflict suffering. The Jailer tried to be both and in the end he was neither, being a Gul'dan until the end, then turning into an Illidan on his deathbed.

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if getting beaten was also part of the Jailer's plan. Maybe even the Dragon Isles were part of his plan. Would fit his amazing personality all based on appropriating everything ever in the lore!

[Shadowferal]

Goes right along with WoW story competence these days.. 8 million IQ superbeing who has molded the events of millennia to enact his master plan gets beaten by Scooby-Doo and the gang from 1 small planet in the universe because the old guy who got his ass kicked before remembered at the literal last second we needed a magic hat in order to make his magic useless. Oh, and it turns out he was just a robot and was doing the whole thing because "we are not prepared"

I'd have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for these meddling kids and their dog!"

[Khaza-R]

Azeroth helps a bit, but the basic gist of it is that he just isn't that strong. The Jailer is a Titan+ level threat, in as much as if he succeeded in what he was doing he'd do more harm than what a Titan could do, but he isn't on a Titan level of power, let alone above that. The dude's backstory centers around him being defeated and he's been imprisoned scheming for the entire time up to then fighting 0 people. Before that, his job was being a judge, not a fighter. He's powerful because he's a demigod, but his skillset and backstory all centers around getting others to fight for him and when he fights at all it's instrumental and when he's got something stacked to his advantage.

This is probably the best explanation you can get. Power levels really just apply to the threat someone poses.

We start talking about "how can we defeat X" is where it unravels. Lets be clear that lorewise every ordinary character can still die from a simple stab wound. And supernatural characters all have their own deus ex machina lurking in the shadows waiting to one-shot them as well.

[TickTickTick]

What do you mean without anyone's help?

We were empowered by the Covenants, we were empowered by the Crown of Wills which strongly diminishes the Jailer's power against us, and when Zovaal finally dominates us, Azeroth herself empowers us - literally. We break from the domination and receive a buff.

[Eazy]

Azeroth helped us.

We were also armed with the Covenants spells/items.

[Iain]

Azeroth helps a bit, but the basic gist of it is that he just isn't that strong. The Jailer is a Titan+ level threat, in as much as if he succeeded in what he was doing he'd do more harm than what a Titan could do, but he isn't on a Titan level of power, let alone above that. The dude's backstory centers around him being defeated and he's been imprisoned scheming for the entire time up to then fighting 0 people. Before that, his job was being a judge, not a fighter. He's powerful because he's a demigod, but his skillset and backstory all centers around getting others to fight for him and when he fights at all it's instrumental and when he's got something stacked to his advantage.

Credit where credit is due, this is a way more compelling situation than merely encountering the next biggest and baddest monster in the universe. It would have helped if the villain was actually machiavellian rather than being supposedly so, but it definitely breaks a lance for better villains in the future.

For instance, a raid boss might be an ordinary mortal that found some time travelling device. A raid encounter would be about the players having to pursue this mortal person through various time-travelling scenarios in various stages of the fight rather than fighting them head on.

Or a raid encounter might not be a person at all. How about fighting an avalanche, or a tidal wave, an earthquake or a meteorite shower? How about saving people that are caught up in this disaster?

Imagine a raid encounter where an entire raid of players have to sneak around like in Suramar city looking for the raid boss. There's no technical reasons why this isn't possible.

There will always be big bad monsters in a raid. That's fine. But they don't need to be the pivotal climax of an expansion.

[Djaye]

end game fights have been dumb ever since they had us taking down Titans, celestial entities and old gods...

game was far better when we were mortals having to band together to conquer reasonably powerful enemies.
as was stated, it only made sense most of the time when some other npc came and basically beat them for us, i.e. arthas and hellscream

[OokOok]

Cause he's a shitty end expansion boss and it's clear this raid tier was supposed to end at anduin but everyone hated the expansion so they rushed it to get it over with.

Example --
TBC:SWP - we needed the help of the blue dragonflight to beat KJ
WOTLK - we needed the help of Tirion to beat the LK
CATA - we needed the help of the aspects/thrall to defeat deathwing
MOP - We needed the help of both thralls horde and the alliance to defeat Garrosh and his horde
WOD - We needed the help of Khadgar and friends to defeat Archimonde
Legion - we needed the help of the pantheon to defeat argus
BFA - we needed the help of goku to defeat N'zoth

Look at that list...all those powerful lore characters...and we needed assistance with all of them. Then here comes the jailer... Blizzard tells us he's the REAL DEAL, the big super supreme bad guy who's the reason for EVERYTHING ELSE in this list happening.... and we just stroll on in and slap him like Arya and the nightking

[loras]

Blizzard have stated that Zovaal was "Titan++ power level", which means ATLEAST same as Sargeras, but probably more powerful.

They often spread bullshit about the lore outside of the game though, they rarely show much consistency there. And without consistency on their part it is more reliable to go by what we've seen in game.

[Aucald]

Blizzard have stated that Zovaal was "Titan++ power level", which means ATLEAST same as Sargeras, but probably more powerful.

I think people are a bit too focused on this whole "Titan++" thing, to the point that it has sort of become a meme (and as a result almost meaningless as is the fate of most memes). Power is relative and doesn't always equate to being a pure combat-monster type of threat as depicted by Sargeras. I think part of what makes Zovaal a threat in terms of the narrative is in how close he was to the true machinery of metacosm, having been the former Arbiter and as such being close to the true levers of power of the Warcraft cosmos' core. Zovaal's role in the story asks which being is more powerful: the planet-sized giant who can skewer worlds with its colossal greatsword or the being who can journey to a specific place and then flick a switch that reorganizes all of creation and anoints said being as the god of all things? Sure, head-to-head Sargeras could likely wipe the floor with Zovaal, but Zovaal could also walk into Zereth Mortis and use the machinery inside the Sepulcher to simply unmake Sargeras, and conceivably the rest of the Titans, with little effort. Those are two entirely different types of essential power, and essential threats, to contend with.

[tommyhil622]

The list runs long of all the power we bowered to help defeat the jailer. The convents, the relics, the legendries, the items taken from the maw, the crown of wills, the restoration of all the Covenants keys (far more powerful than their original ones) and finally Azeroth herself help us defeat the jailer. The members of the pantheon's were not physically there but they were there through us via our soul binds and all the power we attained to grow the convents themselves and our own characters in that process of reknown. I think out of all the expansions, this one shows how much we leaned on others to fight the big bad. Essentially an entire expansion gaining powers from different sources to get to where we were at the end.

As for the Titan++ it was never a mention of his personal power, because i think it's pretty clear than in a one on one battle, Sargeras would crush this guy, Sargeras being a Tian++ himself. But the Jailer's scale as a "Titan++" has been his overall threat, his plan that if it can to fruition would render every being, soul, entity in the entire cosmos under his will. Which would make him the greatest power ever in the wow universe.

[Magical Mudcrab]

I mean, usually when fighting powerful enemies, we need the help of powerful allies, this time we saved the whole reality on our own, even the Pantheon of Death did not help us, what's the point?

Because he was not, in fact, Titan++.

Really though, Zovaal was built up to be some major enemy for us to overcome, a master manipulator that supposedly pulled the strings of every story prior and with limitless armies and the power to change creation, but what did we see? We saw the pawns he manipulated betray him. We saw his armies fall to little more than the efforts of the Maw Walker and a contingent of Covenant forces. We saw him fail to change creation, relying on the power of Azeroth to do so, and was so impotent that he required machines to be built beneath her surface to actually kill her.

Zovaal is, for all intents and purposes, and by feats displayed, likely one of the weakest end-villains we have dealt with in a long time. I would even go so far as to include bosses like Archimonde in this number, as even he could burn worlds by conjuring meteors to devastate their surface.

That said, I think the end is kinda fitting. A pathetic, uninteresting end for a pathetic, uninteresting villain in the pathetic, uninteresting story that was Shadowlands.

- - - Updated - - -

Blizzard have stated that Zovaal was "Titan++ power level", which means ATLEAST same as Sargeras, but probably more powerful.

This has been hashed out several times on the forums, the "Titan++" thing was only ever printed by WoWhead in an article that had several other editing errors (mistakes on who the last bosses of some expansions were, for instance). Windows Central had a full transcript of the group interview posted and it doesn't say "Titan++" anywhere.

- - - Updated - - -

Powerlevels stopped making since after killing Archimonde at the end of WoD, and then got ridiculous when you defeat not one, but TWO Titans at the end of Legion.

This isn't totally accurate, as it implies we were able to actually defeat a Titan.
- The Aggramar we fight is an avatar, and is explicitly stated to be as such in the journal, and is significantly weaker than a Titan at full strength.
- Argus is a prenatal Titan world soul which has been tortured for thousands of years by forcibly injecting Fel magic into its planetary body, had much of its power stripped from it to constantly revive the demons of the Legion and power their equipment, and is then forcibly ripped from its body and forced to fight while weakened and crazed from the abuse it had suffered (i.e.: not exactly a full-power Titan).

We really didn't defeat two Titans in a meaningful sense, but we freed a Titan world soul from an avatar and dealt with a weakened World Soul with the aid of the Pantheon.

[darkoms]

Because he was not, in fact, Titan++.

Really though, Zovaal was built up to be some major enemy for us to overcome, a master manipulator that supposedly pulled the strings of every story prior and with limitless armies and the power to change creation, but what did we see? We saw the pawns he manipulated betray him. We saw his armies fall to little more than the efforts of the Maw Walker and a contingent of Covenant forces. We saw him fail to change creation, relying on the power of Azeroth to do so, and was so impotent that he required machines to be built beneath her surface to actually kill her.

Zovaal is, for all intents and purposes, and by feats displayed, likely one of the weakest end-villains we have dealt with in a long time. I would even go so far as to include bosses like Archimonde in this number, as even he could burn worlds by conjuring meteors to devastate their surface.

That said, I think the end is kinda fitting. A pathetic, uninteresting end for a pathetic, uninteresting villain in the pathetic, uninteresting story that was Shadowlands.

- - - Updated - - -



This has been hashed out several times on the forums, the "Titan++" thing was only ever printed by WoWhead in an article that had several other editing errors (mistakes on who the last bosses of some expansions were, for instance). Windows Central had a full transcript of the group interview posted and it doesn't say "Titan++" anywhere.

- - - Updated - - -



This isn't totally accurate, as it implies we were able to actually defeat a Titan.
- The Aggramar we fight is an avatar, and is explicitly stated to be as such in the journal, and is significantly weaker than a Titan at full strength.
- Argus is a prenatal Titan world soul which has been tortured for thousands of years by forcibly injecting Fel magic into its planetary body, had much of its power stripped from it to constantly revive the demons of the Legion and power their equipment, and is then forcibly ripped from its body and forced to fight while weakened and crazed from the abuse it had suffered (i.e.: not exactly a full-power Titan).

We really didn't defeat two Titans in a meaningful sense, but we freed a Titan world soul from an avatar and dealt with a weakened World Soul with the aid of the Pantheon.

I know he's not a Titan++, but I think the strongest member of the Pantheon of Death shouldn't be defeated so easily. By the way, in the battle with Denatrius, we also had no help?