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  1. #61
    High Overlord Ghanir's Avatar
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    TL;DR If not a tank spec a ranged dps spec could be feasible in my eyes.


    So I have some gripes with the 3rd spec for the Evoker.

    First I personally advocate for a tank spec. Specializing in the Earth, Fire and Shadow schools while borrowing small amounts of the other elemental schools since the whole idea was for the race to be a mixture of all main dragonflights.


    Secondly if we are to go off of the whole point of this post and it NOT being a tank spec the most logical conclusion would be that it'd be a dps-spec. But would it be ranged or melee?

    Considering that the other two specs already primarily features schools of magic from the other 4 major dragonflights it'd be logical to think that this 3rd spec would utilize Earth as its primary school of magic so if we brainstorm what a ranged or melee dps class would look like that utilize Earth as its primary school of magic we mostly end up with something like this:

    A ranged dps spec focusing primarily on Earth-based spells, possibly taking Shadow and Fire as it's secondary schools of magic I can see be distinct enough to be it's own spec, even if it would impede somewhat on the Elemental-spec for similarities.

    A melee dps spec focusing primarily on Earth-based spells seems way too similar to an Enhancement Shaman if you just take away/change their primary school of magic from Lightning to Earth.
    Naturally you can brute-force it a little to make it work somewhat but I feel the feeling of gameplay will be too closely related to Enhancement to make it feel unique.
    Last edited by Ghanir; 2022-05-01 at 02:47 AM.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghanir View Post
    TL;DR If not a tank spec a ranged dps spec could be feasible in my eyes.


    So I have some gripes with the 3rd spec for the Evoker.

    First I personally advocate for a tank spec. Specializing in the Earth, Fire and Shadow schools while borrowing small amounts of the other elemental schools since the whole idea was for the race to be a mixture of all main dragonflights.


    Secondly if we are to go off of the whole point of this post and it NOT being a tank spec the most logical conclusion would be that it'd be a dps-spec. But would it be ranged or melee?

    Considering that the other two specs already primarily features schools of magic from the other 4 major dragonflights it'd be logical to think that this 3rd spec would utilize Earth as its primary school of magic so if we brainstorm what a ranged or melee dps class would look like that utilize Earth as its primary school of magic we mostly end up with something like this:

    A ranged dps spec focusing primarily on Earth-based spells, possibly taking Shadow and Fire as it's secondary schools of magic I can see be distinct enough to be it's own spec, even if it would impede somewhat on the Elemental-spec for similarities.

    A melee dps spec focusing primarily on Earth-based spells seems way too similar to an Enhancement Shaman if you just take away/change their primary school of magic from Lightning to Earth.
    Naturally you can brute-force it a little to make it work somewhat but I feel the feeling of gameplay will be too closely related to Enhancement to make it feel unique.
    It wouldnt be melee either, The devs have already stated that melee is over saturated.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghanir View Post
    TL;DR If not a tank spec a ranged dps spec could be feasible in my eyes.


    So I have some gripes with the 3rd spec for the Evoker.

    First I personally advocate for a tank spec. Specializing in the Earth, Fire and Shadow schools while borrowing small amounts of the other elemental schools since the whole idea was for the race to be a mixture of all main dragonflights.


    Secondly if we are to go off of the whole point of this post and it NOT being a tank spec the most logical conclusion would be that it'd be a dps-spec. But would it be ranged or melee?

    Considering that the other two specs already primarily features schools of magic from the other 4 major dragonflights it'd be logical to think that this 3rd spec would utilize Earth as its primary school of magic so if we brainstorm what a ranged or melee dps class would look like that utilize Earth as its primary school of magic we mostly end up with something like this:

    A ranged dps spec focusing primarily on Earth-based spells, possibly taking Shadow and Fire as it's secondary schools of magic I can see be distinct enough to be it's own spec, even if it would impede somewhat on the Elemental-spec for similarities.

    A melee dps spec focusing primarily on Earth-based spells seems way too similar to an Enhancement Shaman if you just take away/change their primary school of magic from Lightning to Earth.
    Naturally you can brute-force it a little to make it work somewhat but I feel the feeling of gameplay will be too closely related to Enhancement to make it feel unique.
    I don't think it would impede on elemental or enhancment. Just make them based on 2h weapons if melee or if caster make them stick to magma and earth spells. Shaman uses a pitiful amount of earth spells, as elemental is just the "all elements" spec today. If shaman can use all elements and we still can have fire mages and destruction warlocks on top of it, then we can also have one more class that uses more than 25% (and I'm generous here) earth magic (same for lightning *cough*). Spell effect wise it's a cool theme that was somewhat explored in legion with some warrior and shaman procs, but never fully realized. I think it would be easy to make an appealing spec out of it, because right now what Blizzard has shown of "drac"thyr dps casters seems to be mostly taking mage spells besides the dive bomb one and the reskinned shadowcrash.

    I agree though, a tank spec would fit an earth warder way more than a dps spec, but right now I tend to think it's just weird that the "drac"thyr don't include the black flight at all ability wise by Blizzard's own admission (I guess it's implied in the dive bomb attack, but that is a rather weak connection..). So having at least a dps spec based on it would round the class out. Edit: Especially after they went for yet another semi-fire based dps spec. They should have at least made that one the healing spec (life-binder *cough*), but right now it feels like the dps side will be a dragon based mage clone with some gimmiks and the healing spec will be a dragon based druid clone with some temporal-themed discipline priest gimmiks. They certainly didn't show off any of the stronger elements of the class in their presentation, which has me kinda worried that they either don't know themselves yet or these ware the cool parts...
    Last edited by Cosmic Janitor; 2022-05-01 at 01:47 PM.
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  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by The Vindicator View Post
    Tanks really are the most vocal and whiny players it seems

    The first class out of four not designed for them and they're mad; as someone who primarily plays ranged I'm so glad I can actually be excited for a new class for once

    I think two specs is fine if done well - it works for DH; just like how four specs is fine for a druid, not every class has to follow the same rules as the rest; I would rather have one really well fleshed out and realised spec that two lacklustre specs that are repaints of what we already have

    - - - Updated - - -



    Rogue
    Surv Hunter
    Monk
    Feral
    DH
    Enhance

    3 of the 4 classes added have been agi melee classses lol
    Yes and?
    The post I quoted said it could only be a caster because it was int mail
    I pointed out that agi melee is a possibility

    I mean you have claws

  5. #65
    caster tank would be pretty cool tho.

  6. #66
    High Overlord Ghanir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snugglestheogre View Post
    caster tank would be pretty cool tho.
    Something I keep hearing recently is how they wanna avoid the tank spec cause the class/race is supposed to embody a very high-mobile experience, but isn't the Demon Hunter already sort of in that situation where they can leap-stomp from place to place? I personally don't think such an excuse justifies avoiding the idea of the new class being able to be a tank.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghanir View Post
    Something I keep hearing recently is how they wanna avoid the tank spec cause the class/race is supposed to embody a very high-mobile experience, but isn't the Demon Hunter already sort of in that situation where they can leap-stomp from place to place? I personally don't think such an excuse justifies avoiding the idea of the new class being able to be a tank.
    Even warriors can charge and hob about the place, and monks roll around as well. Only DKs still have the classical wheelchair tank stigma right now. :P
    #1) MMO-C should be glad that the British Empire is no more, because they'd want a piece of all the copium trade here.
    #2) Angry players come to the forums to complain about the game... but what loser only comes to the forums to complain about the forums and its users?
    #3)Felating Blizzard too eagerly may lead to oxygen deficiency and worst case asphyxiation. Long-term effects range from delusions up to cerebral necrosis. #4) The WoW playerbase doesn't deserve housing.

  8. #68
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snugglestheogre View Post
    caster tank would be pretty cool tho.
    Unfortunately, Blizzard will probably never do it, because it'd require them to significantly alter raid mechanics. I believe that like healing, they have to adhere to a specific formula to make tanking balanced and fair among all specs. If they go too far off the pasture, you could have a tank that's too OP, or too UP.

    So to recap; DPS has the most creative freedom, Healing has less than DPS but more than tanking, Tanking has the least.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feuerbart View Post
    Why would they need a third spec really? Having only 2 specs is totally fine in my eyes. From an rpg standpoint as well as a gameplay one.
    If anything the game's major mistake with specs was trying to make everything have minimum three from the start.

  10. #70
    It's really so strange this race/class can't be a tank. Who cares if there are a lot of classes that can tank already? Why is that a problem? You're still bringing 2/3 tanks to a raid, 1 tank to a dungeon. If it's a dragon, it's a dragon. I've never seen a dragon fantasy of the dragon character casting spells from the back of the room. But not being able to be a dragon knight-esque character with the dragon class is just very unusual.
    Why am I back here, I don't even play these games anymore

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  11. #71
    Titan Sorrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    It's really so strange this race/class can't be a tank. Who cares if there are a lot of classes that can tank already? Why is that a problem? You're still bringing 2/3 tanks to a raid, 1 tank to a dungeon. If it's a dragon, it's a dragon. I've never seen a dragon fantasy of the dragon character casting spells from the back of the room. But not being able to be a dragon knight-esque character with the dragon class is just very unusual.
    Percieved balance over fun is likely one reason.

    Notice how many bring up balance but how rarely fun to play is brought up

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Oh but a second caster spec for Envoker couldn't possibly be different?

    No it wont...it wont help anything. WoW doesn't need more tanks because there aren't enough tank specs, it needs tanks because not enough people want to tank. Everyone wants to reach those big numbers, maximum deeps...why do you think it's so easy to find 3 dps in group finder but takes 10-20 minutes to find just one tank and one healer?

    Making Envoker a tank wont fix any of that...just like Vengeance didn't fix any of that, Brewmaster and Mistweaver didn't fix any of it
    Wow needs tanks specs that can be non melee in raids outside druids. Yes if warlocks mages etc could tank it would help a lot. People will tank for their weekly and then would played ranged dps in raids.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Wow needs tanks specs that can be non melee in raids outside druids. Yes if warlocks mages etc could tank it would help a lot. People will tank for their weekly and then would played ranged dps in raids.
    Could isn't the same as would.

    The problem with tanks in general isn't the available specs.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Could isn't the same as would.

    The problem with tanks in general isn't the available specs.
    Yes it is. The problem is that most of the highest priority specs in raid literally can't do any other job than dps. Mages and Locks in particular. If I'm playing a class in raid until that class is fully done I will not be playing an alt that could do other things because it just doesn't make sense.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Yes it is. The problem is that most of the highest priority specs in raid literally can't do any other job than dps. Mages and Locks in particular. If I'm playing a class in raid until that class is fully done I will not be playing an alt that could do other things because it just doesn't make sense.
    That's a personal issue of yours, though. Not a problem with the game.

    Increasing the number of tank-capable specs has never done anything to increase the number of actual tanks. There's no reason to believe this would be different.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    That's a personal issue of yours, though. Not a problem with the game.

    Increasing the number of tank-capable specs has never done anything to increase the number of actual tanks. There's no reason to believe this would be different.
    Because they are always added with melee specs which is already a stupid overcrowded area. It's not a personal problem of mine it's how literally any high end player will play the game. It makes zero sense to play an alt when there are upgrades for your main available.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Because they are always added with melee specs which is already a stupid overcrowded area. It's not a personal problem of mine it's how literally any high end player will play the game. It makes zero sense to play an alt when there are upgrades for your main available.
    High end players do exactly what you say they don't. They play up alts solely for that purpose.

    For everybody else, this is a non-issue, as you're almost always going to be short on tanks, not DPS.

  18. #78
    They could have a 3rd spec that uses a bow with fire and earth magic.
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  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Yes it is. The problem is that most of the highest priority specs in raid literally can't do any other job than dps. Mages and Locks in particular. If I'm playing a class in raid until that class is fully done I will not be playing an alt that could do other things because it just doesn't make sense.
    It really isn't. The problem is not a lack of classes with tank specs. We have plenty. The problem is a lack of people who WANT to tank. I know I certainly don't wanna tank, even when I play classes with the option to. Tanking involves a level of responsibility I am not willing to bear, and I know for a fact that there are many who view tanking as I do. I do wish mages and locks could get a healing spec though, and I think rogues and hunters should get a tanking spec so that every class has a non-dps role as an option. But a tank spec is not NEEDED on Evokers.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    It really isn't. The problem is not a lack of classes with tank specs. We have plenty. The problem is a lack of people who WANT to tank. I know I certainly don't wanna tank, even when I play classes with the option to. Tanking involves a level of responsibility I am not willing to bear, and I know for a fact that there are many who view tanking as I do. I do wish mages and locks could get a healing spec though, and I think rogues and hunters should get a tanking spec so that every class has a non-dps role as an option. But a tank spec is not NEEDED on Evokers.
    Absolutely this, adding more tank specs will not lessen the tank shortage, as most of who play dps don't want to touch tanking.

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