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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghanir View Post
    Excusing feral as a non-existant spec is not a viable argument. It exists, and is very heavily rooted in the game's lore.
    It's also overly specific to the current situation. Feral has been in better places in the past.

  2. #142
    High Overlord Ghanir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Tank concerns don't have to do with playstyle as much as content design. We have plenty of options and tanking looks cool and has solid perks.
    I think most of us would love going back to a time when we were self-reliant to a larger degree (e.g. Legion) but Blizzard has decided that tank healing needs to be important (healers have 4-18 other targets to heal anyway, let tanks keep themselves up with tank healing being mostly about picking us back up from tank busters/using externals). But I don't think that's what keeps people from tanking.

    But I think the more important part is dungeon and raid encounter design. When it comes to raid compositions, almost all encounters need 2 tanks, rarely can use a third and sometimes can even be solo'd. That means less than 1 in ten raiders can expect to tank (even though tanks are 1 in 6 specs and available to half the classes). In most guilds the result is that only people with near perfect attendance can ever expect to tank and tank spots are almost never open for recruitment. I'd say that raiding as a tank outside of cutting edge content is one of the less challenging roles; we can ignore plenty of mechanics and have to focus on our own things mostly though its definitely always useful to be aware of everything. Still I don't find raid tanking particularly stressful. It's probably a far better introduction to tanking than dungeons can be but so few players will ever get the opportunity to try it. However it is also perhaps the task most dependent on a single other player; a raid tank lives and dies by the skills of their off tank which can be very jarring in PuG environment or LFR.
    Then come dungeons. I am sorry but the community makes it very hard for new players to pick up dungeon tanking. Even at low difficulties where one should start the gogo mentality leaves no time for the tank to actually learn routes and mob abilities. And then when it comes to M+ tanks take an inordinate amount of responsibility for the run's outcome, having to know every pull and every ability as well as how everything has to change depending on affixes. Choices in dungeon design and with seasonal affixes in the past that have made very specific routes extremely important (Reaping, Prideful) make the lives of tanks even harder.

    I think it would be nice if more encounters required three tanks (and not for the third tank to do something completely gimmicky like running around kiting snared mobs) so there would be more opportunities for a third person to play tank at raids. I would absolutely love to be much more self-reliant again. And as for dungeon design, they need to find a way to make picking a route much more forgiving. My suggestion has always been simple linear unavoidable route through the dungeon but one that leaves you well short of 100% and then plenty of side rooms to both make the dungeon feel more natural/immersive and to let groups choose which additional pulls to take to complete the dungeon.
    This is a neat comment, but it has nothing to do with my response.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    It's also overly specific to the current situation. Feral has been in better places in the past.
    Perhaps it has, but that doesn't have anything to do with what I'm talking about besides existing.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Wow needs tanks specs that can be non melee in raids outside druids. Yes if warlocks mages etc could tank it would help a lot. People will tank for their weekly and then would played ranged dps in raids.
    No, it wouldn't. You'd have the same problem of the only people tanking are the same ones doing so right now. There is no incentive for Warlocks to suddenly tank when that same player has the option to play as a Tanking class right now and choose not to.

    Being ranged changes nothing when ultimately all tanking mechanics involve aggroing melee and getting into melee position, otherwise your casters and melee are fucked by positional and environmental raid mechanics. This concept is as dead as 'Dedicated Support Buff' roles.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghanir View Post
    Perhaps it has, but that doesn't have anything to do with what I'm talking about besides existing.
    It is more relevant than your lore interjection, given that Xath's argument was mostly from a gameplay perspective. You gave no actual counterarguments to that.

  5. #145
    High Overlord Ghanir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    It is more relevant than your lore interjection, given that Xath's argument was mostly from a gameplay perspective. You gave no actual counterarguments to that.
    My response was about more tank options helps more than doing nothing about tanks. His response is about tank gameplay issues.
    How a tank plays as a design is a separate, but parallel, issue to enticing people to play tank specs by providing more options.

    I also have no qualms with his comment about tank design and gameplay, which is why I didn't give a counterargument.


    Do you seriously believe that less options for players is better than more options? That is what I've been discussing with you, specifically.
    Last edited by Ghanir; 2022-05-12 at 03:59 PM.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghanir View Post
    My response was about more tank options helps more than doing nothing about tanks. His response is about tank gameplay issues.
    How a tank plays as a design is a separate, but parallel, issue to enticing people to play tank specs by providing more options.

    Do you seriously believe that less options for players is better than more options? That is what I've been discussing with you.
    No, but history has shown that more options does not provide a tangible benefit, so pursuing that path is pointless. Making more options still takes finite dev resources. If it can't be shown to be worthwhile, there's not really a point to doing it. Your argument is hollow. You don't need to show that there is no loss. You have to show there is a potential gain.

  7. #147
    High Overlord Ghanir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    No, but history has shown that more options does not provide a tangible benefit, so pursuing that path is pointless. Making more options still takes finite dev resources. If it can't be shown to be worthwhile, there's not really a point to doing it. Your argument is hollow. You don't need to show that there is no loss. You have to show there is a potential gain.
    Neither you nor I have any real proof to go off of when it comes to halting the decline of available tanks (or increasing it for that matter) in any scenario, and if we did surely either of us would've used that by now.
    But while I say that Blizz have done things to interest me in playing it with options they introduced later on in the games' lifespan all you do is say "no, no more options" as if that is the root of the problem.
    Last edited by Ghanir; 2022-05-12 at 04:15 PM.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    No, it wouldn't. You'd have the same problem of the only people tanking are the same ones doing so right now. There is no incentive for Warlocks to suddenly tank when that same player has the option to play as a Tanking class right now and choose not to.

    Being ranged changes nothing when ultimately all tanking mechanics involve aggroing melee and getting into melee position, otherwise your casters and melee are fucked by positional and environmental raid mechanics. This concept is as dead as 'Dedicated Support Buff' roles.
    No they don't have the same option is what you don't get. I'm fine with making the tank spec only functional in melee range it doesn't need to be a ranged tank. The issue is right now three of the most popular raid classes can't do anything but dps. The players playing these classes cannot tank or for that matter heal on their main. Healing is less of an issue since three ranged dps specs are able to do it so it feels less difficult to find one. Tanks are super hard to find because if you play dps in raid chances are very good you are ranged and if you are ranged unless you are a druid you can't tank.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    No they don't have the same option is what you don't get. I'm fine with making the tank spec only functional in melee range it doesn't need to be a ranged tank. The issue is right now three of the most popular raid classes can't do anything but dps. The players playing these classes cannot tank or for that matter heal on their main. Healing is less of an issue since three ranged dps specs are able to do it so it feels less difficult to find one. Tanks are super hard to find because if you play dps in raid chances are very good you are ranged and if you are ranged unless you are a druid you can't tank.
    But the problem isn't the class. It's the player first and foremost.

    If your raid needs healers and is completely full of DPS, then people will begrudgingly bring in their Healing alts or swap Healing specs. Either way, there is no difference in swapping a spec or bringing the alt, because either way they're gonna be undergeared compared to the main, and people are choosing to do so begrudgingly.

    The fact of the matter is most people don't have the experience or setup to be a Tank, or do not wish to tank period. I would imagine very few people would have a sufficiently Raid geared 'Tank alt' available to them, and I doubt many people who exclusively play as DPS on a class that has Tank options would have a full set of Raid-viable gear, nor would they be willing to tank if they did. Whether your class has the option or not does not change a lack of willing to perform it.


    I mean, ideally I could say every player should play a tank or at least have an alt that is leveled up and decently geared for when the situation arises. Or gear up their secondary specs so they can pick up the slack when the situation calls for it. But that's really not ever true. I've seen plenty of Warriors, Paladins, Demon Hunters, Druids, Monks and DK's who don't have a lick of tanking gear and are unwilling to tank. The problem comes from a player mentality.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-05-12 at 08:27 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Shandalar View Post
    Im happy Evokers will never be tanks. This game doesnt need more tank classes.

    Oh, and Im happy too because there are no Tinkers. Because, you know, Tinkers will NEVER happen. And thats a good new.
    Why exactly does WoW not need more tanks?

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    But the problem isn't the class. It's the player first and foremost.

    If your raid needs healers and is completely full of DPS, then people will begrudgingly bring in their Healing alts or swap Healing specs. Either way, there is no difference in swapping a spec or bringing the alt, because either way they're gonna be undergeared compared to the main, and people are choosing to do so begrudgingly.

    The fact of the matter is most people don't have the experience or setup to be a Tank, or do not wish to tank period. I would imagine very few people would have a sufficiently Raid geared 'Tank alt' available to them, and I doubt many people who exclusively play as DPS on a class that has Tank options would have a full set of Raid-viable gear, nor would they be willing to tank if they did. Whether your class has the option or not does not change a lack of willing to perform it.


    I mean, ideally I could say every player should play a tank or at least have an alt that is leveled up and decently geared for when the situation arises. Or gear up their secondary specs so they can pick up the slack when the situation calls for it. But that's really not ever true. I've seen plenty of Warriors, Paladins, Demon Hunters, Druids, Monks and DK's who don't have a lick of tanking gear and are unwilling to tank. The problem comes from a player mentality.
    Agree with this.

    And I know it's not like a super important testimony making this gospel, but this is also what Yoshi-P, Game Director for FFXIV has noted. Take that as you will.

    It's not necessarily a lack of tanking classes, it's more a lack of players that want to tank. The note specifically from FFXIV was that adding Tank classes didn't increase the total number of tanks doing roulettes, it spread the number of tanking players across the classes.

    MAYBE, having a tank that more people find "fun" more people would do it, but it's not just the game play it's the responsibility and expectation. I play FFXIV and have 1 of every role, including Tank, but I don't play the tank often because it's a bit under geared and I get some level of shit for it (not terrible, but comments and bad attitudes). not directly because I don't have gear, but because my lack of gear results in me not being able to do the big pulls like most groups want.

    For WoW, it's because I feel like the tanks I do play, play very similarly. Their game play loop anyway and they're just boring to me. I can't stand Blood DK and BM Monk just doesn't jive with me, so I don't play them. I have tried them though. If a new tanking class I really enjoyed playing came, maybe I would play it.

  12. #152
    The Patient Supertoster's Avatar
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    I don't get why healer spec uses green and bronze aspects while DPS spec uses blue and red. I mean, Blue and Green are correct, but Red and Bronze are misplaced.
    Alexstraza, the aspect of Red dragonflight, is a Lifebinder. She is also a healer in HoTs. While Cromie is from Bronze dragonflight and she is a DPS character in HoTs that uses time and sand magic.
    And where are Black aspect powers?!

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Supertoster View Post
    I don't get why healer spec uses green and bronze aspects while DPS spec uses blue and red. I mean, Blue and Green are correct, but Red and Bronze are misplaced.
    Alexstraza, the aspect of Red dragonflight, is a Lifebinder. She is also a healer in HoTs. While Cromie is from Bronze dragonflight and she is a DPS character in HoTs that uses time and sand magic.
    And where are Black aspect powers?!
    Well the current speculation, since only like 4 spells were used in the reveal, is that Black spells and abilities are the baseline class spells that both specs can use.

  14. #154
    High Overlord Ghanir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    For WoW, it's because I feel like the tanks I do play, play very similarly. Their game play loop anyway and they're just boring to me. I can't stand Blood DK and BM Monk just doesn't jive with me, so I don't play them. I have tried them though. If a new tanking class I really enjoyed playing came, maybe I would play it.
    This was the situation I found myself at prior to BFA.
    None of the tanks "jived" with me, but after picking up DH (because it was like the go-to alt at the time) I found myself playing tank occationally aswell; because its' specific tank spec was the first tank spec that I really enjoyed.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    But the problem isn't the class. It's the player first and foremost.

    If your raid needs healers and is completely full of DPS, then people will begrudgingly bring in their Healing alts or swap Healing specs. Either way, there is no difference in swapping a spec or bringing the alt, because either way they're gonna be undergeared compared to the main, and people are choosing to do so begrudgingly.

    The fact of the matter is most people don't have the experience or setup to be a Tank, or do not wish to tank period. I would imagine very few people would have a sufficiently Raid geared 'Tank alt' available to them, and I doubt many people who exclusively play as DPS on a class that has Tank options would have a full set of Raid-viable gear, nor would they be willing to tank if they did. Whether your class has the option or not does not change a lack of willing to perform it.


    I mean, ideally I could say every player should play a tank or at least have an alt that is leveled up and decently geared for when the situation arises. Or gear up their secondary specs so they can pick up the slack when the situation calls for it. But that's really not ever true. I've seen plenty of Warriors, Paladins, Demon Hunters, Druids, Monks and DK's who don't have a lick of tanking gear and are unwilling to tank. The problem comes from a player mentality.
    You don't need to be raid geared to tank 15s for weekly there is no shortage of raid tanks. However right now something like 70% or more of the players in a raid who don't tank can't tank for weekly vaults. If you start up an M+ 15 or higher you get deluged by Warlocks Mages Hunters. Why? Because they are signing up to every key in hope of doing their weekly because they can't tank or heal. I don't understand why this is so hard to comprehend. I want my 10 weekly 15s on my main doing them on an alt doesn't help progress my mains vault filling. Why in the world would I want to play an alt when it doesn't finish weekly chores on my main. This is a problem when a good chunk of the highest priority raid classes can't do anything in M+ besides dps. Adding another class like druid that could both be ranged dps in raid and tank outside would help that issue.

    The issue isn't in raids it's in M+; tanking spots are annoying as heck to get in raids since most guilds just find someone who will show up doesn't die too much and isn't a jerk then call it good they aren't actually competitive spots unlike dps ones.
    Last edited by Xath; 2022-05-12 at 10:57 PM.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Supertoster View Post
    I don't get why healer spec uses green and bronze aspects while DPS spec uses blue and red. I mean, Blue and Green are correct, but Red and Bronze are misplaced.
    Alexstraza, the aspect of Red dragonflight, is a Lifebinder. She is also a healer in HoTs. While Cromie is from Bronze dragonflight and she is a DPS character in HoTs that uses time and sand magic.
    And where are Black aspect powers?!
    If I had to take a guess it would be because lore took a backseat to gameplay. People have been suggesting for a long time for mages to be a healer and for their heals to be entirely based on reversing time so I’m guessing they thought that idea sounded cool. That or they didn’t want us to be healed by having our skin burned off again.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Veluren View Post
    Kinda, if you've ever seen how XIV handles red mage, they spend most of combat away from the enemy bombarding them with Black and White spells, balancing a resource gauge, when that gauge is high enough, they can then dive in for melee, they can deliver a 3 hit combo that does high damage, then they can leap away (or leap in place for off-GCD damage) and do another 3 hit "finisher" combo of charged spells for extreme damage.
    It only took 8 comments for someone to try to make the post about FF14? Impressive.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    You don't need to be raid geared to tank 15s for weekly there is no shortage of raid tanks. However right now something like 70% or more of the players in a raid who don't tank can't tank for weekly vaults. If you start up an M+ 15 or higher you get deluged by Warlocks Mages Hunters. Why? Because they are signing up to every key in hope of doing their weekly because they can't tank or heal. I don't understand why this is so hard to comprehend. I want my 10 weekly 15s on my main doing them on an alt doesn't help progress my mains vault filling. Why in the world would I want to play an alt when it doesn't finish weekly chores on my main. This is a problem when a good chunk of the highest priority raid classes can't do anything in M+ besides dps. Adding another class like druid that could both be ranged dps in raid and tank outside would help that issue.
    Then that is your problem of not playing a class that can do anything other than DPS and having grass is greener syndrome, while putting no effort i to actually tanking and seeing all the issues that stem from a lack of tanks.

    Yes, you don't want to roll an alt to do what you want to complete on your main. Neither does 99% of other people who are playing DPS roles, whether they have the option to be tank or not. Why in the world would anyone want to play an alt or alt spec when it doesn't finish weekly chores on their main. Same core problem that stems from the player, first and foremost.

    If your issue really is you want to complete this on your main, then you are absolutely free to make a new main. You see what I mean? The problem is from the player mentality. It is not convenient for you to play something else that is inconvenient to you, which is ultimately the underlying problem with lack of tanks in the first place.

    Even if your mage could tank, do you have both the gear and experience to do so? That you think you would have a good experience that was not met with high expectations from strangers? There are so many factors that I think you would understand better if you actually just tanked, instead of imply this is Blizzard's design problem because the other Hybrids aren't pulling their weight.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-05-13 at 02:54 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  19. #159
    This might sound crazy, but after playing multiple other titles and some games that don’t even have a defined tank spot at all, why can they just not design tanks to actually do dps? Like actual real dps. Topping the charts levels of dps.

    And if they are designing the raids around a set amount of tanks anyway just set up some sort of limit on how many tank specs are allowed to enter a raid/mythic/whatever.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Then that is your problem of not playing a class that can do anything other than DPS and having grass is greener syndrome, while putting no effort i to actually tanking and seeing all the issues that stem from a lack of tanks.

    Yes, you don't want to roll an alt to do what you want to complete on your main. Neither does 99% of other people who are playing DPS roles, whether they have the option to be tank or not. Why in the world would anyone want to play an alt or alt spec when it doesn't finish weekly chores on their main. Same core problem that stems from the player, first and foremost.

    If your issue really is you want to complete this on your main, then you are absolutely free to make a new main. You see what I mean? The problem is from the player mentality. It is not convenient for you to play something else that is inconvenient to you, which is ultimately the underlying problem with lack of tanks in the first place.

    Even if your mage could tank, do you have both the gear and experience to do so? That you think you would have a good experience that was not met with high expectations from strangers? There are so many factors that I think you would understand better if you actually just tanked, instead of imply this is Blizzard's design problem because the other Hybrids aren't pulling their weight.
    Yea it's my fault that those classes have unique utility and do more damage. I should obviously play a class that isn't wanted in raids just so I have the ability to tank. Also do you actually think tanking 15s requires skill???? It doesn't require non dps gear for any tanking class to tank a 15 outside a weapon and you can get by just fine with a world quest level one. This is beyond dumb that you are actually arguing that class balancing is the fault of players.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thalsarion View Post
    This might sound crazy, but after playing multiple other titles and some games that don’t even have a defined tank spot at all, why can they just not design tanks to actually do dps? Like actual real dps. Topping the charts levels of dps.

    And if they are designing the raids around a set amount of tanks anyway just set up some sort of limit on how many tank specs are allowed to enter a raid/mythic/whatever.
    Because tanks have much higher survivability than a dps.

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