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  1. #1
    Pandaren Monk rogoth's Avatar
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    very interesting turn of phrase

    I found this line of particular interest when looking at the condensed mongo interview:

    'The team usually gets negative feedback if they have trinkets and gear from previous raids that are still good enough to farm when progressing a new raid.'


    reason being is that in WOTLK content many of the 'old' trinkets from previous tiers (in some cases the opening tier) are still BiS for some specs in the game even at ICC level, for healers one of their BiS trinkets is from TOGC25 faction champions, for arcane mages their BiS trinkets are the ilvl 200 spellpower trinket from naxx 10 (or the TOTC 5 man drop which is functionally the same trinket), as well as the TOGC25 anub'arak trinket, or how about the ulduar hardmode trinkets from algalon etc, are people who play this 'classic' edition of it gonna be complaining about this?, gonna be fun to see how confused people get when their BiS items don't all come from whatever the 'current' content is for that tier.

    retired march 2013 RIP - returned january 2016, purely because paladins finally get Ashbringer!

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    I found this line of particular interest when looking at the condensed mongo interview:

    'The team usually gets negative feedback if they have trinkets and gear from previous raids that are still good enough to farm when progressing a new raid.'


    reason being is that in WOTLK content many of the 'old' trinkets from previous tiers (in some cases the opening tier) are still BiS for some specs in the game even at ICC level, for healers one of their BiS trinkets is from TOGC25 faction champions, for arcane mages their BiS trinkets are the ilvl 200 spellpower trinket from naxx 10 (or the TOTC 5 man drop which is functionally the same trinket), as well as the TOGC25 anub'arak trinket, or how about the ulduar hardmode trinkets from algalon etc, are people who play this 'classic' edition of it gonna be complaining about this?, gonna be fun to see how confused people get when their BiS items don't all come from whatever the 'current' content is for that tier.
    Maybe ask in the Classic forum?
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  3. #3
    when i played wrath back in the day you could form raids to do past raid tiers and i played on a low to medium server

  4. #4
    Nobdy is confused nor do any Classic players complain about it.

    I'd say it's one of the reasons why many people actually play Classic (or TBC for that matter) to begin with, because gearing and character progression is more meaningful and not gets trashed within a few weeks of a new patch release.

    Whether that's also a better model for Retail is up for debate, it would certainly piss off players that enjoy that on and off playstyle that Retail allows them to have, but also open the possibility to bring players back who might've left Retail because progression has become that fleeting.

  5. #5
    Are you sure this was with an eye towards Classic rather than Retail? That's two very different things. Classic has some quirks to it that are being preserved for authenticity, but you don't want this to be the case in Retail. Having to farm Ashvane/Azshara trinkets while in the next tier was a miserable experience no one wants. Optimists go "great, now we have a reason to do old raids!" but the reality wasn't that - it was "Ashvane raid with 20 Demon Hunters, who all leave the second the fight is over".

  6. #6
    Pandaren Monk rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Are you sure this was with an eye towards Classic rather than Retail? That's two very different things. Classic has some quirks to it that are being preserved for authenticity, but you don't want this to be the case in Retail. Having to farm Ashvane/Azshara trinkets while in the next tier was a miserable experience no one wants. Optimists go "great, now we have a reason to do old raids!" but the reality wasn't that - it was "Ashvane raid with 20 Demon Hunters, who all leave the second the fight is over".
    i'm guessing i didn't word things well enough for my point to get across, yes i'm fully aware that the quote is referencing 'retail', my point was that since there's a massive crossover between retail and 'classic' servers, for all the people who never played 'back in maaaa day' it's going to be a shock to the system having to farm older tiers of content for their BiS gear, assuming people care enough about it in the first place but that's a whole other arguement, basically i'm assuming that this time around because of the collective impact WOTLK had on millions of people, me being one of them, all those years ago that this time out it might have a much bigger pull rate than TBC did, and with that quote in mind how newer players are gonna handle the change to gearing up in WOTLK content.

    retired march 2013 RIP - returned january 2016, purely because paladins finally get Ashbringer!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    I found this line of particular interest when looking at the condensed mongo interview:

    'The team usually gets negative feedback if they have trinkets and gear from previous raids that are still good enough to farm when progressing a new raid.'


    reason being is that in WOTLK content many of the 'old' trinkets from previous tiers (in some cases the opening tier) are still BiS for some specs in the game even at ICC level, for healers one of their BiS trinkets is from TOGC25 faction champions, for arcane mages their BiS trinkets are the ilvl 200 spellpower trinket from naxx 10 (or the TOTC 5 man drop which is functionally the same trinket), as well as the TOGC25 anub'arak trinket, or how about the ulduar hardmode trinkets from algalon etc, are people who play this 'classic' edition of it gonna be complaining about this?, gonna be fun to see how confused people get when their BiS items don't all come from whatever the 'current' content is for that tier.
    I don't think anyone will be confused since it's been happening almost every new raid tier and people know about it

  8. #8
    The big shock is already over.
    Classic was as extreme as you can get on that front, you have items like Onslaught belt off Ragnaros (from the very first Raid of Classic) to literally the last one.

    Sure, there's going to be some people that might be surprised when Wotlk comes out but seriously, Wotlk is way closer to Retail than Classic, like the step in 2019 from BfA to Classic was day and night.
    Whereas Wotlk falls a lot more into the "Dawn" or "Twilight" category.
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Are you sure this was with an eye towards Classic rather than Retail? That's two very different things. Classic has some quirks to it that are being preserved for authenticity, but you don't want this to be the case in Retail. Having to farm Ashvane/Azshara trinkets while in the next tier was a miserable experience no one wants. Optimists go "great, now we have a reason to do old raids!" but the reality wasn't that - it was "Ashvane raid with 20 Demon Hunters, who all leave the second the fight is over".
    Ironically this bothered me too in Retail but is actually a strength to me in Classic.

    In Classic / TBC, it's often not just a trinket, but often also a cloak, ring, chest, etc.., which really spreads which specs and classes really need to run that place.

    At least for me personally, it's not so much of a thing of "it's bad. period.", it's more of an element that works in Classic because of how Classic / TBC is designed, whereas Retail is in the grand scheme of things, it feels like a rogue element than a concious design choice.

    In Classic, this design re occurs throughout its entire lifespan, it goes through each phase of Classic, continues into TBC (Naxx loot is damn powerful early TBC) and keeps on going in TBC.
    In Retail, it has become the MO that you throw your entire gear into the bin with the next patch - until suddenly some random trinket comes along every 3-4th tier and is somehow better than that of the newest raid for maybe 2-3 specs at most.
    It just feels like the game randomnly decides to change its rules, which often times feels bad.

    There's also the factor that the lack of catchup means that the pool of players who want to farm the previous raid is much bigger, if you want to farm T5 for an item, someone might join on their Alt because they need the gear out of T5 to make the leap into T6.
    Whereas in Retail, the catchup is takes care of Alts, no one will join unless they belong into that very specific group of people who might also need a given item (which is very small) which means that you often have to strongarm people, rather than them joining because they actually need something for themselves.

    No sane person would have joined on their alt for gear when you wanted to farm EP Mythic for Trinkets, because the content is still pretty hard and the loot equivalent to freaking Normal Nya'lotha, which is not a huge benchmark for a Mythic player.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    I found this line of particular interest when looking at the condensed mongo interview:

    'The team usually gets negative feedback if they have trinkets and gear from previous raids that are still good enough to farm when progressing a new raid.'


    reason being is that in WOTLK content many of the 'old' trinkets from previous tiers (in some cases the opening tier) are still BiS for some specs in the game even at ICC level, for healers one of their BiS trinkets is from TOGC25 faction champions, for arcane mages their BiS trinkets are the ilvl 200 spellpower trinket from naxx 10 (or the TOTC 5 man drop which is functionally the same trinket), as well as the TOGC25 anub'arak trinket, or how about the ulduar hardmode trinkets from algalon etc, are people who play this 'classic' edition of it gonna be complaining about this?, gonna be fun to see how confused people get when their BiS items don't all come from whatever the 'current' content is for that tier.
    The difference is that in current wow, dif raids are basically a dif season. Almost no one goes back and does old content. Been a few years now that they've been preaching that if its a higher ilvl, it should be better for u.

    In older versions of wow, there weren't seasons. You still had guilds progressing thru the older raids or using them to gear up.

  10. #10
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    I think this was more about Dragonspine trophy where we're about to be in Sunwell and still having to go back and kill Gruul every week for that trinket. It's honestly terrible design for a trinket to be that good and for subsequent trinkets to not even be close. Same thing with healer trinkets. The first decent healing trinket after P1 is from Illidan and it's BARELY better than a badge/holiday event reward. Modern item balancing is much much better.
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  11. #11
    Pandaren Monk rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    I think this was more about Dragonspine trophy where we're about to be in Sunwell and still having to go back and kill Gruul every week for that trinket. It's honestly terrible design for a trinket to be that good and for subsequent trinkets to not even be close. Same thing with healer trinkets. The first decent healing trinket after P1 is from Illidan and it's BARELY better than a badge/holiday event reward. Modern item balancing is much much better.
    personally i would argue that both versions are bad, and a good mix of both strategies would be a healthier mix, again using WOTLK was a baseline here, while for many people who played healers they would use whatever highest ilvl weapon they got for the content they were doing, but for holy paladin especially, their BiS was Valan'yr and it wasn't even close even the raw stats increase from 284 ilvl from LK hc25 wasn't enough to offset the legendary power effect of the mace, and that was fine because it was a legendary weapon, it was supposed to be powerful relative to other epic quality weapons, the example i gave above was more of an outlier in that for arcane mages, because of the time period they had literally no DoT effects, and the vast majority of spellcaster trinkets in the higher ilvl content were all procs based on dealing periodic damage (fire mage/shadow priest/warlock) that the only go to options for Arcane were rom the very first tier of content and only seeing an upgrade from the hardest boss in the game at the time prior to ICC which saw very few people actually get full BiS at that point,.

    i personally would like to see something where the full armour sets are your BiS and are from current content but having flavour items being BiS sometimes from previous raids or older content, even up to cataclysm content, the caster neck from majordomo staghelm heroic was BiS for all caster DPS over anything that dropped in dragon soul (ilvl 391 vs ilvl 410) purely because of the red gem socket on the firelands item, i think little things like that are fine, but the pendulum has swung from one extreme to the opposite end of the spectrum where now everything is BiS from 'insert current tier of content here' then instantly replaced when 'insert whatever is new tier here' and the old stuff is literally just disenchant material at best vendor trash taking space at worst, i think there needs to be a middle ground where time investment is respected on older gear but the majority of your gear should be from whatever the new content is.

    retired march 2013 RIP - returned january 2016, purely because paladins finally get Ashbringer!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    I found this line of particular interest when looking at the condensed mongo interview:

    'The team usually gets negative feedback if they have trinkets and gear from previous raids that are still good enough to farm when progressing a new raid.'


    reason being is that in WOTLK content many of the 'old' trinkets from previous tiers (in some cases the opening tier) are still BiS for some specs in the game even at ICC level, for healers one of their BiS trinkets is from TOGC25 faction champions, for arcane mages their BiS trinkets are the ilvl 200 spellpower trinket from naxx 10 (or the TOTC 5 man drop which is functionally the same trinket), as well as the TOGC25 anub'arak trinket, or how about the ulduar hardmode trinkets from algalon etc, are people who play this 'classic' edition of it gonna be complaining about this?, gonna be fun to see how confused people get when their BiS items don't all come from whatever the 'current' content is for that tier.
    Forget ICC. I remember people being upset at having to go back to Emerald Nightmare and Withered J'im for trinkets deep into Nighthold and in the latter case through the entire expansion.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Forget ICC. I remember people being upset at having to go back to Emerald Nightmare and Withered J'im for trinkets deep into Nighthold and in the latter case through the entire expansion.
    That was largely caused by Titanforging, where items in theory could Titanforge up to an Ilvl equivalent to the current raid.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    I think this was more about Dragonspine trophy where we're about to be in Sunwell and still having to go back and kill Gruul every week for that trinket. It's honestly terrible design for a trinket to be that good and for subsequent trinkets to not even be close. Same thing with healer trinkets. The first decent healing trinket after P1 is from Illidan and it's BARELY better than a badge/holiday event reward. Modern item balancing is much much better.
    Totally agree with you

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    The difference is that in current wow, dif raids are basically a dif season. Almost no one goes back and does old content. Been a few years now that they've been preaching that if its a higher ilvl, it should be better for u.

    In older versions of wow, there weren't seasons. You still had guilds progressing thru the older raids or using them to gear up.
    Honestly, I actually liked the Legion/BfA system that made you go back into old raids. It's super weird and a waste of ressources to only do a raid for one season only, I guess the season 4 fated raids are a good compromise though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    personally i would argue that both versions are bad, and a good mix of both strategies would be a healthier mix, again using WOTLK was a baseline here, while for many people who played healers they would use whatever highest ilvl weapon they got for the content they were doing, but for holy paladin especially, their BiS was Valan'yr and it wasn't even close even the raw stats increase from 284 ilvl from LK hc25 wasn't enough to offset the legendary power effect of the mace, and that was fine because it was a legendary weapon, it was supposed to be powerful relative to other epic quality weapons, the example i gave above was more of an outlier in that for arcane mages, because of the time period they had literally no DoT effects, and the vast majority of spellcaster trinkets in the higher ilvl content were all procs based on dealing periodic damage (fire mage/shadow priest/warlock) that the only go to options for Arcane were rom the very first tier of content and only seeing an upgrade from the hardest boss in the game at the time prior to ICC which saw very few people actually get full BiS at that point,.

    i personally would like to see something where the full armour sets are your BiS and are from current content but having flavour items being BiS sometimes from previous raids or older content, even up to cataclysm content, the caster neck from majordomo staghelm heroic was BiS for all caster DPS over anything that dropped in dragon soul (ilvl 391 vs ilvl 410) purely because of the red gem socket on the firelands item, i think little things like that are fine, but the pendulum has swung from one extreme to the opposite end of the spectrum where now everything is BiS from 'insert current tier of content here' then instantly replaced when 'insert whatever is new tier here' and the old stuff is literally just disenchant material at best vendor trash taking space at worst, i think there needs to be a middle ground where time investment is respected on older gear but the majority of your gear should be from whatever the new content is.
    I think atleast Cantrip weapons and Legendary weapons should stay bis for more than one tier, which is currently the case for the rogue dagger from Sylvanas. Sadly the bow is trash now outside of timewalking ...

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Maybe ask in the Classic forum?
    I for one approve of there being more than one relevant raid. Personally i would prefer all good past raids to be available for at least normal level gear. Any outliers could be balanced as needed, in regards to trinkets and such.
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  17. #17
    This worked just fine back in a time where bosses were "easy". People could throw a pug group together and run the previous tiers for these special pieces. Now, with almost every boss having one shot mechanics or "lose one person and you can't beat the fight", it's so much harder to form pug raids for older content. Not to mention bosses only dropping like 3 pieces of gear.
    If what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Then I should be a god by now.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    I found this line of particular interest when looking at the condensed mongo interview:

    'The team usually gets negative feedback if they have trinkets and gear from previous raids that are still good enough to farm when progressing a new raid.'


    reason being is that in WOTLK content many of the 'old' trinkets from previous tiers (in some cases the opening tier) are still BiS for some specs in the game even at ICC level, for healers one of their BiS trinkets is from TOGC25 faction champions, for arcane mages their BiS trinkets are the ilvl 200 spellpower trinket from naxx 10 (or the TOTC 5 man drop which is functionally the same trinket), as well as the TOGC25 anub'arak trinket, or how about the ulduar hardmode trinkets from algalon etc, are people who play this 'classic' edition of it gonna be complaining about this?, gonna be fun to see how confused people get when their BiS items don't all come from whatever the 'current' content is for that tier.
    I know of the trial trinket,but i dont remember the naxx 200 one still being bis,the icc 277 caster trinkets were insane,i could be wrong ofc and we could have just been out of the meta but that just feels wrong,you shouldnt have a bis item from the easiest raid ever made 4 tiers ago

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    reason being is that in WOTLK content many of the 'old' trinkets from previous tiers (in some cases the opening tier) are still BiS for some specs in the game even at ICC level, for healers one of their BiS trinkets is from TOGC25 faction champions, for arcane mages their BiS trinkets are the ilvl 200 spellpower trinket from naxx 10 (or the TOTC 5 man drop which is functionally the same trinket), as well as the TOGC25 anub'arak trinket, or how about the ulduar hardmode trinkets from algalon etc, are people who play this 'classic' edition of it gonna be complaining about this?, gonna be fun to see how confused people get when their BiS items don't all come from whatever the 'current' content is for that tier.
    Are you aware that this has been the case for classic players since... you know classic started few years ago?
    You are looking for some drama and didn't even give a 30s thought about it, did u?

  20. #20
    This is one of those things that would be more prevalent if not for the seemingly infinite ilvl of gear. I don't know about this expansion, but things like razer coral were best up to certain ilvl, etc... less ilvl difference in older raids, a piece of gear drops and the replacement in the next tier just needs to not line up well with burst windows or whatever else is the case and it's a dps loss.

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