Poll: Xuen vs Mannoroth

  1. #1

    Xuen vs Mannororth

    I recently had a match in Mercenaries (in Hearthstone) where my Xuen fought against Mannoroth, so I was wondering who would win in lore

  2. #2
    I reckon Xuen.

    Because: Xuen managed to hold his own against the Thunder King. The Thunder King is meant to be able to take the Lich King. This places Xuen within the realms of the Lich King, in a one Vs one fight atleast. While Mannororth can be put down by a few powerful orcs.

  3. #3
    Xuen
    Mannoroth was turned into a weak idiot in WoW. In WC3, he was supposed to be extremely powerful, he only died because he toyed with Thrall & Grom, until the latter surprised and suicide-rushed him. But in everything that followed since then, he was only portrayed as a weak dumbass.
    Xuen, on the other hand, had a good fight with Lei Shen, who wouldve won in a (presumably difficult) fight against the LK.
    So yeah, Xuen probably
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  4. #4
    The Insane Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Xuen took on the Thunder King, who usurped a Titanic Watcher.

    Mannoroth was killed by an orc with an axe.


  5. #5
    Mannoroth is one of those guys that suffers from power scaling, lorewise he's monstrously powerful... But because he was fought in Wc3, they didn't have the tech to portray that scale of battle needed he seems a lot weaker now
    Twas brillig

  6. #6
    I will say Mannoroth, Xuen fought the thunder king yes, but if i'm not mistaken the fight just wasn't as easy as against the other celestials because Xuen is immune to thunder, which is obviously the thunder king's main source of power, he had a big advantage and still lost

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Mannoroth is one of those guys that suffers from power scaling, lorewise he's monstrously powerful... But because he was fought in Wc3, they didn't have the tech to portray that scale of battle needed he seems a lot weaker now
    Thats a general problem with WoW lore, characters are as powerful or as weak as the story needs them to be, the established lore be damned.

  8. #8
    Brewmaster Nemah's Avatar
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    Mannoroth has the better laugh at least.


  9. #9
    High Overlord PsychoSe7eN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keviel View Post
    I will say Mannoroth, Xuen fought the thunder king yes, but if i'm not mistaken the fight just wasn't as easy as against the other celestials because Xuen is immune to thunder, which is obviously the thunder king's main source of power, he had a big advantage and still lost
    Agreed. This. I say Mannaroth. The lore of Pit Lord's clearly shows how powerful and chaotic they are. They are fueled by rage and violence which makes them nearly unstoppable when they build enough momentum. And they are inflicted with constant pain if they do not fuel their anger (IIRC). Don't forget, he was an upper rank in the Burning Legion and led full scale demonic invasions in other worlds.
    Last edited by PsychoSe7eN; 2022-04-29 at 01:08 AM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    Xuen
    Mannoroth was turned into a weak idiot in WoW. In WC3, he was supposed to be extremely powerful, he only died because he toyed with Thrall & Grom, until the latter surprised and suicide-rushed him. But in everything that followed since then, he was only portrayed as a weak dumbass.
    Xuen, on the other hand, had a good fight with Lei Shen, who wouldve won in a (presumably difficult) fight against the LK.
    So yeah, Xuen probably
    I don't know why you mention LK, I think Mannoroth is also stronger than him

  11. #11
    In the War of the Ancients, the Wild Gods did battle with the various demon lords, and they were pretty outmatched against them, so I would say Xuen could get his ass beat here.

    But Mannoroth wasn't as powerful, judging from how all it took to kill him two times was a simple orc axe swing

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoSe7eN View Post
    Agreed. This. I say Mannaroth. The lore of Pit Lord's clearly shows how powerful and chaotic they are. They are fueled by rage and violence which makes them nearly unstoppable when they build enough momentum. And they are inflicted with constant pain if they do not fuel their anger (IIRC). Don't forget, he was an upper rank in the Burning Legion and led full scale demonic invasions in other worlds.
    I think it's a huge problem in Warcraft that powerful demons are so easily defeated. Eredar warlocks and pit lords are the strongest demons and they always seem to me a little weaker than an adult dragon, but still very powerful. Eredar warlocks are basically supposed to be the Warhammer equivalent of the Lords of Change and the pit lords are the equivalent of the Bloodthirster, but sometimes they are so easily defeated that it's just dumb. We kill eredar and pit lords for quests or just as trash in the raid and only the most powerful of them are perceived as a threat, although each of them should be a machine of destruction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fistfighter View Post
    In the War of the Ancients, the Wild Gods did battle with the various demon lords, and they were pretty outmatched against them, so I would say Xuen could get his ass beat here.

    But Mannoroth wasn't as powerful, judging from how all it took to kill him two times was a simple orc axe swing
    The Wild Gods didn't fight the various demon lords, they fought the lesser demons and were killed in the battle against the endless hordes of demons. Malorne is the only one who fought against the powerful demon lord.

  13. #13
    Xuen all the way, except that overhype Mannororth has in sundering his not really that impressive as some people make him up to be , Xuen holding up to a juicy Thunder King put him above Mannororth in my book, his definitly the weakest out of Xuen/Lich King/Thunder King

  14. #14
    Speaking of which, has anyone else noticed that the Wild Gods and the Pit Lords seem to be sworn enemies? We have 3 examples of their battles:


    1. Cenarius fought Mannoroth in the War of the Ancients (also on that art you can see how the Keeper of the Thicket shoots another pit lord with a bow).


    2. Ashamane fought Ronokon in the War of the Ancients near Suramar.


    3. Goldrinn fights Xargraxach on the Broken Shore.


    Bonus: In the original War of the Ancients timeline (described in the Warcraft 3 manual), Mannoroth killed Agamaggan in the War of the Ancients. I'm not sure if this is still canon. In the druid campaign in the Legion, there is a quest where you need to penetrate the Nightmare of Malorne, its memories of the War of the Ancients and there various wild gods fight demons and Agamaggan fights a random pit lord, but it is not indicated that this is Mannoroth.



    It also seems that the Wild Gods are actually stronger. I'm not sure about Cenarius and Mannoroth, but the description of the battle between Ronokon and Ashamane states that Ashamane was already wounded by the time they dueled because before that she fought the demon army alone until Piet Lord personally came out to fight her and even so they fought to a draw (and she died because he exploded).

    Goldrinn fights Xargraxach and this is what the quest says:
    Thisalee Crow says: Goldrinn needs our help! A demon decided to cheat the hunt by bringing in backup. Let's give him a taste of his own medicine!

    Apparently the Pit Lord knew that he could not win alone and brought lesser demons (although Goldrinn himself is also assisted by claw druids, but perhaps Thisalee brought them later as a hero).



    The same applies to the battle between Mannoroth and Agamaggan. As written in the Warcraft 3 manual, Mannoroth killed Agamaggan after Agamaggan had already been wounded by hordes of demons.
    Last edited by darkoms; 2022-04-29 at 12:28 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    I don't know why you mention LK, I think Mannoroth is also stronger than him
    yeah, because according to you, a random orc peon would probably beat the LK, so thats irrelevant. you hate the character with all your heart iirc
    thats a whole different discussion tho, the outcome for this thread remains the same: xuen beats mannoroth
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    yeah, because according to you, a random orc peon would probably beat the LK, so thats irrelevant. you hate the character with all your heart iirc
    thats a whole different discussion tho, the outcome for this thread remains the same: xuen beats mannoroth
    I don't hate this character, I hate his fans who try to make him the most powerful being in the world and constantly write nonsense. You call me a hater and don't notice that you are a fanboy yourself. I'm not sure about Xuen and Mannoroth (although I lean more towards Xuen), but if you want to discuss Mannoroth vs LK, let's explain a few things:

    1. Grommash is by no means a random orc. According to your logic, Arthas is a random DK and Mannoroth is a random pit lord. Maybe Brox is also a random orc with an axe?
    2. It's not just an ax, it's a Gorehowl and it's a very strong ax
    Gorehowl was forged three generations before Grommash inherited it. Grommash's great-grandfather used Gorehowl to kill six legendary gronn. Their hearts were sealed into the blade, granting it untold strength.[1]


    I pointed out this fact to you about 10 times and you forget about it every time. I mean, Mannoroth deflected a loaded Doomhammer with his wing and tanked an iron star shot without a scratch, being killed with such an ax shows the ax's strength, not Mannoroth's weakness.

    3. Mannoroth never really fought Grommash. In the first case, he did not expect Grommash to raise a hand at all because he was sure that he was in complete control of him (Chronicles 3), in the second case, other orcs distracted him so that Grommash could strike.

    4. Mannoroth himself also never used magic in the battle with Grommash, although he could easily destroy him with fel fire. In the War of the Ancients, Illidan was afraid to teleport near Mannoroth because Mannoroth could easily intercept this teleportation. People seem to forget that Mannoroth is a powerful Fel user.


    5. The same goes for Cenarius, by the way. In the War of the Ancients, he went berserk and burst into a crowd of demons and began to kill them with his bare hands instead of standing behind and using magic as Malfurion did. With Grommash was the same situation. He could just kill him with lightning, but decided to engage in close combat. Arthas is no stronger than those two, it's just that he'll never be in that situation because he's constantly using magic instead of just brandishing a sword.



    So what if we take into account all these facts and put Arthas in the same position? Yes, I have absolutely no doubt that Fel Grom will kill him if Arthas fights only in close combat, without the use of magic, or if someone distracts him, as was the case with Mannoroth. Arthas' armor was pierced by Galakrond's bone and although it recovered quickly, it shows that this armor is not impenetrable and I think Gorehowl will be able to pierce this armor.


    Every time you twist the facts or make up some nonsense to make your favorite Lich King (it doesn't matter if you are a Ner'zhul fan and not Arthas, you still jerk off the Lich King) seem stronger. Wow, Mannoroth was killed by a random orc with an axe? Arthas almost died when the Forsaken rot was thrown on him. I can't imagine this happening to Mannoroth. You constantly forget your god's worst moments because you don't want to admit that the Lich King is not as powerful as many people think.


    By the way, it's funny that you started this again, because yesterday, before creating this post, I came across our old dispute (in the thread about Bolvar vs. Mannoroth) where you said that Xuen would eat Cenarius for breakfast, and then, after as I (to show you how stupid it is to say such things) said the same thing about Mannoroth and Arthas, you demanded a proof from me and accused me of just talking nonsense because I hate Arthas. Your hypocrisy is rivaled only by your ignorance of the lore.
    Last edited by darkoms; 2022-04-29 at 03:14 PM.

  17. #17
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Let's keep this thread on track and not devolve into an X vs. Y free-for-all or accusations of "fanboyism" for X character.
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  18. #18
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    I recently had a match in Mercenaries (in Hearthstone) where my Xuen fought against Mannoroth, so I was wondering who would win in lore
    If I were to guess, Mannoroth should likely be significantly stronger than Xuen. Mannoroth is dangerous because of his apparent magical aptitude while having the raw physical power of a Pit Lord. Mannoroth's main problem is that he comes off as being a punching bag because he is so central to the Orc's history that he has to be killed by them for the Orc story to progress. Consider that Grommash is substantially weaker than Mannoroth, with less combat experience, worse equipment, and forced into only using melee attacks, but the story requires him to win. For instance, consider:
    - How does Mannoroth take the full force of an Iron Star to the stomach, but an axe to the head is too much force?
    - How does Mannoroth's glaive, which has taken the full brunt of attacks from beings like Cenarius, break from a single axe swing from Grommash when there was no prior damage to it?

    Another problem we really get into is that Mannoroth has no in-game feats that are felt by players because Blizzard refuses to give him any. He has been built him up as being this terrifyingly powerful monster who can do things like deal with Illidan, Tyrande, and the player characters while trying to control the power of the Well of Eternity and the Dragon Soul to widen the portal for Sargeras at the same time and only having help from some fodder demons, but is also immediately killed by one angry boy. These conflicting characterizations aren't very good for players.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    If I were to guess, Mannoroth should likely be significantly stronger than Xuen. Mannoroth is dangerous because of his apparent magical aptitude while having the raw physical power of a Pit Lord. Mannoroth's main problem is that he comes off as being a punching bag because he is so central to the Orc's history that he has to be killed by them for the Orc story to progress. Consider that Grommash is substantially weaker than Mannoroth, with less combat experience, worse equipment, and forced into only using melee attacks, but the story requires him to win. For instance, consider:
    - How does Mannoroth take the full force of an Iron Star to the stomach, but an axe to the head is too much force?
    - How does Mannoroth's glaive, which has taken the full brunt of attacks from beings like Cenarius, break from a single axe swing from Grommash when there was no prior damage to it?

    Another problem we really get into is that Mannoroth has no in-game feats that are felt by players because Blizzard refuses to give him any. He has been built him up as being this terrifyingly powerful monster who can do things like deal with Illidan, Tyrande, and the player characters while trying to control the power of the Well of Eternity and the Dragon Soul to widen the portal for Sargeras at the same time and only having help from some fodder demons, but is also immediately killed by one angry boy. These conflicting characterizations aren't very good for players.
    Grommash's ax is enchanted with the power of 6 legendary gronns. But I agree with you about how annoying it is that the developers keep forgetting that Mannoroth is a very powerful Fel user and can easily kill lesser enemies. This reminds me of Swarmlord from 40k, where the writers forget that he is a psyker so that a SUPER COOL SPACE MARINE can kill him. Worf's effect in general (although Mannoroth never lost a direct battle, both times he didn't expect Grommash to attack him).

  20. #20
    Mannoroth, with his blood, Grom killed the demigod Cenarius. Mannoroth has a spear, can shoot fel rays. Although Xuen is a very powerful wild god physically, Mannoroth is also the strongest pitlord of his race, also Mannoroth was the field commander of the Legion and has an advantage over Xuen through fel magic. And despite the fact that Mannoroth died at the hands of an orc, let's remember that Grommash is the only one of his race who has defeated such a strong character as Mannoroth in battle..

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