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  1. #1

    Why did they kill Ra-den?

    They brought back quite a number of characters because they were killed off "unfairly" and/or didn't have enough screen time.
    Gul'dan in WoD, Illidan in Legion, a whole bunch in SL, including Kael'Thas and Uther.
    Why did they randomly kill off Ra'den in BfA? Did Ra-den have too much screen time?
    I get that Odyn essentially replaced him as the Aman'Thul's watcher, but wouldn't it be interesting to see those two cooperate or maybe compete against each other?

  2. #2
    Dreadlord Molvonos's Avatar
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    Because not every character survives the story.

    Because he was a more compelling tragic victim of circumstance than what you're suggesting.

    Because they might have solo plans with Odyn in the future.

    These are some of my speculations.

    Ra-dens character arc was fine for what it was and he went out like a (raid) boss.
    Personal Preference and Opinions ≠ Facts, Truth, or Logic

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Molvonos View Post
    Because not every character survives the story.
    Some characters have much higher survivability though. Take Sylvanas/Natahanos, for instance.
    Or Denathrius, who survived because Danuser liked his voice actor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Molvonos View Post
    Ra-dens character arc was fine for what it was and he went out like a (raid) boss.
    He already played that part before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Molvonos View Post
    Because he was a more compelling tragic victim of circumstance than what you're suggesting.
    When they repeat the same scenario over and over again it becomes farce and certainly not a compelling story.
    They could do much more with one of the main watchers, but hey, why build up existing characters and lore when you can randomly toss in a couple of hundreds more with no rules (Chronicles) applied. Let's just quickly dispose of them.
    Ra-den's sad demise mirrors one of N'Zoth, ironically.

  4. #4
    I guess because they wanted to show Even pure hearted Titan keepers can fall to the Madness of the old gods? but yea i was kinda disappointed in his death

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragerre View Post
    Ra-den's sad demise mirrors one of N'Zoth, ironically.
    This completly answers your thread question. Because BfA story was a complete dogshit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Molvonos View Post
    Because not every character survives the story.
    I wish Blizzard writers actually took this to heart lmao, and had the balls to actually kill some major characters in an impactful way for once

  6. #6
    Because they realized that they wrote a pathetic and miserable ending for the most hyped villain in WoW (the Old God N'Zoth) and realized that the only way to not make 8.3 seem completely and utterly filler was to write at least one character dying.

    Ra'den was a character that people liked in MoP, he was a character that people sympathized with, by having him succumb to the whispers of the Void and forcing players to kill him, the stakes were raised.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Ra'den was a character that people liked in MoP, he was a character that people sympathized with, by having him succumb to the whispers of the Void and forcing players to kill him, the stakes were raised.
    Which is EXACTLY what they did to Wrathion? Liked in MoP, succumbed to the whispers, fought him as a boss in the instance.
    the only reason is they didn't have the balls to kill Wrathion, because that could make the fans upset.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Fistfighter View Post
    Which is EXACTLY what they did to Wrathion? Liked in MoP, succumbed to the whispers, fought him as a boss in the instance.
    the only reason is they didn't have the balls to kill Wrathion, because that could make the fans upset.
    Wrathion should not have been in that patch in the first place.

    Alleria Windrunner should have replaced Wrathion. Anduin was looking desperately for an advisor to help resist the Void whispers, and he didn't think of asking for help from the first mortal in the Cosmos to defy the Shadows' whispers? Who is also in the Alliance? And who was the only leader during the war who was more concerned by N'Zoth than the Faction war?

    Wrathion doesn't even deserve to be nominated here, he deserved nothing, he was not entitled to anything. He should not have been in that patch. The spotlight belonged to Alleria Windrunner and Magister Umbric. He got the spot only because fangirls love Wranduin.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragerre View Post
    They brought back quite a number of characters because they were killed off "unfairly" and/or didn't have enough screen time.
    Gul'dan in WoD, Illidan in Legion, a whole bunch in SL, including Kael'Thas and Uther.
    Why did they randomly kill off Ra'den in BfA? Did Ra-den have too much screen time?
    I get that Odyn essentially replaced him as the Aman'Thul's watcher, but wouldn't it be interesting to see those two cooperate or maybe compete against each other?
    Odyn didn't replace him. Both of them were empowered by Aman'thul, but Odyn was always the overall leader, but Ra-den was tasked with installing the Forge of Origination in the south of Azeroth whereas most of the other Keepers kept to the north. He was de-facto in charge of the south cause he was the only major Keeper there.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragerre View Post
    Some characters have much higher survivability though. Take Sylvanas/Natahanos, for instance.
    Or Denathrius, who survived because Danuser liked his voice actor.


    He already played that part before.


    When they repeat the same scenario over and over again it becomes farce and certainly not a compelling story.
    They could do much more with one of the main watchers, but hey, why build up existing characters and lore when you can randomly toss in a couple of hundreds more with no rules (Chronicles) applied. Let's just quickly dispose of them.
    Ra-den's sad demise mirrors one of N'Zoth, ironically.
    Ra-den was obviously never supposed to be in the same league as Sylvanas or Nathanos (who, I might add, actually did die).
    Titan Keepers are the supporting cast in Warcraft story because it wouldn't make sense for us to constantly interact with them.

    Btw, idk what this jab is, I guess another 'Danuser bad' soft rant.
    Denathrius' voice actor was phenomenal, no wonder they kept him around.
    Let me remind you, Bwonsamdi only got his semi-major appearances because his voice actor was A+ tier. They didn't even want to include him in SL initially but everyone loved him in BfA.

    Ra-den was not simply corrupted, he was dragged into Ny'alotha directly, which is like the orbital nuke variant of corruption, that's why we couldn't even enter mere visions without Wrathion's help.
    It was also a nice end to Ra-den's arc, he sacrificed himself to give us a chance against N'zoth.
    He was already depressed and beaten down before, at least he went out with honor. To be fair, he really should have died in MoP as a "freed from torment" kinda thing because it was obvious they didn't have any plans for him (plus we are probably never going back to Pandaria again).
    8.3 was an elegant way of tackling his character and giving him a send-off.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Fistfighter View Post

    I wish Blizzard writers actually took this to heart lmao, and had the balls to actually kill some major characters in an impactful way for once
    Like Varian, Garrosh, or Vol'jin?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Fistfighter View Post
    Which is EXACTLY what they did to Wrathion? Liked in MoP, succumbed to the whispers, fought him as a boss in the instance.
    the only reason is they didn't have the balls to kill Wrathion, because that could make the fans upset.
    Except, Wrathion didn't succumb to any whispers and was not a boss in any instance.

    The first boss in Ny'alotha is a faceless one posing as Wrathion to trick us. Look at his corpse after he dies.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Wrathion should not have been in that patch in the first place.

    Alleria Windrunner should have replaced Wrathion. Anduin was looking desperately for an advisor to help resist the Void whispers, and he didn't think of asking for help from the first mortal in the Cosmos to defy the Shadows' whispers? Who is also in the Alliance? And who was the only leader during the war who was more concerned by N'Zoth than the Faction war?

    Wrathion doesn't even deserve to be nominated here, he deserved nothing, he was not entitled to anything. He should not have been in that patch. The spotlight belonged to Alleria Windrunner and Magister Umbric. He got the spot only because fangirls love Wranduin.
    You are absolutely correct.
    My guess why they pulled Wrathion is to show him to the newer players before he plays a major role in the upcoming expansion.

    With that said, why did Aleria do in BfA? I thought she's gonna be one of the important characters, judging from the Lordearon cinematic, where the Alliance was boarding the Jaina magic ship and Aleria was featured there.
    Yet in the rest of BfA she was nowhere to be seen?

    Having her get killed at the end of BfA would be a great story prompt for Turalyon to go mad or something like that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Garymorilix View Post
    Except, Wrathion didn't succumb to any whispers and was not a boss in any instance.

    The first boss in Ny'alotha is a faceless one posing as Wrathion to trick us. Look at his corpse after he dies.
    ok I didn't know that, but that's somehow even more lame

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Wrathion should not have been in that patch in the first place.

    Alleria Windrunner should have replaced Wrathion. Anduin was looking desperately for an advisor to help resist the Void whispers, and he didn't think of asking for help from the first mortal in the Cosmos to defy the Shadows' whispers? Who is also in the Alliance? And who was the only leader during the war who was more concerned by N'Zoth than the Faction war?

    Wrathion doesn't even deserve to be nominated here, he deserved nothing, he was not entitled to anything. He should not have been in that patch. The spotlight belonged to Alleria Windrunner and Magister Umbric. He got the spot only because fangirls love Wranduin.
    I mean, there is a huge difference between the way Wrathion is able to help us resist the corruption and the way Alleria and void elves do.

    Wrathion is able to make us resist the corruption by using Black Dragon remnants to create the cloak.

    Alleria's way of 'resisting' the void is by literally consuming it and having to constantly fight wishpers inside your head. In fact, it is barely controllable as even approaching the Sunwell causes it to erupt.
    Alleria wouldn't last a second inside Ny'alotha before being totally corrupted by N'zoth.

    Wrathion's method works, the void elf method would
    a) not work at all because the corruption is amplified inside the zone so much it can corrupt a titan keeper
    b) everyone would be turning into the purple void-elf variant of whatever they are having to face constant void whispers until the rest of eternity

    Neither option is better.

  15. #15
    It think for the same reason I reintroduced a player favourite character, for whom I ran out of ideas for, from our dnd campaign to kill them the next session. It's free drama.

    I doubt Blizzard had any grand plans for Ra-den post Mop.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Garymorilix View Post
    Wrathion's method works, the void elf method would
    a) not work at all because the corruption is amplified inside the zone so much it can corrupt a titan keeper
    b) everyone would be turning into the purple void-elf variant of whatever they are having to face constant void whispers until the rest of eternity

    Neither option is better.
    Ehm excuse me, you seem to be aplying "logic" to a magical fantasy story.
    The Void Elven method could work if : blizzard said it does, that's it

    Why does a magical cloak from a dragon works? Who cares, it's magic

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Odyn didn't replace him. Both of them were empowered by Aman'thul, but Odyn was always the overall leader, but Ra-den was tasked with installing the Forge of Origination in the south of Azeroth whereas most of the other Keepers kept to the north. He was de-facto in charge of the south cause he was the only major Keeper there.
    True.
    But that became true now, I assume "Highkeeper" before Legion used to mean what "Prime Designate" means now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garymorilix View Post
    Ra-den was obviously never supposed to be in the same league as Sylvanas or Nathanos (who, I might add, actually did die).
    Titan Keepers are the supporting cast in Warcraft story because it wouldn't make sense for us to constantly interact with them.
    He was infused with Aman'thul's power long before somebody decided to invent Zovaal and infuse Sylvanas with his power. So while he is a "supporting cast", he was more important in the universe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Garymorilix View Post
    Btw, idk what this jab is, I guess another 'Danuser bad' soft rant.
    Denathrius' voice actor was phenomenal, no wonder they kept him around.
    Let me remind you, Bwonsamdi only got his semi-major appearances because his voice actor was A+ tier. They didn't even want to include him in SL initially but everyone loved him in BfA.
    I'm simply saying, there could be other reasons to keep character alive besides you liking them or their VA personally as a writer. As for Nathanos, he was used to his full potential and even then his last death was made essentially another cliffhanger.
    Quote Originally Posted by Garymorilix View Post
    To be fair, he really should have died in MoP as a "freed from torment" kinda thing because it was obvious they didn't have any plans for him (plus we are probably never going back to Pandaria again).
    8.3 was an elegant way of tackling his character and giving him a send-off.
    Kosak said there were plans for him.
    How can there be "no plans" for Titans' Highkeeper? This makes no sense.

  18. #18
    High Overlord PsychoSe7eN's Avatar
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    Was the Ny'Alotha raid even really Ny'Alotha. I believe that the raid itself was just visions of N'Zoth and only a vision, facade, or glimpse of the real Ny'Alotha. I read this somewhere that the real Ny'Alotha is a realm where we wouldn't even be able to handle or comprehend. I think the raid was the vision of N'Zoth giving us a glimpse of the Black Empire should the BE ever return to Azeroth. Remember, Ny'Alotha is a realm of the old gods and the void. And lore even xalatath suggests mortal beings would not be able to enter the real Ny'Alotha.

    I like it better this way too. I always.imagined the real Ny'Alotha as dark, whispers everywhere, temples reaching the sky, lonely place. The black empire raid was different. And if u look at the older Black empire on Azeroth image art from Blizzard up can clearly see that the raid was inspired by that. The old Ny'Alotha images and description from Blizzard were much much more terrifying and eerie than the raid suggests.

    Anyways, something I read about the raid and the lore that I agree with. We were not in Ny'Alotha for the raid ( I know that the raid is literally called Ny'Alotha. But I feel like that is a misconception of what it actually is....the return of the Black Empire, which isn't Ny'Alotha, although there is a known strong connection between the two).

  19. #19
    Dreadlord Molvonos's Avatar
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    Except he really wasn't important to the Universe.

    Azeroth, perhaps, but beyond that? Nah. And as we're learning, the Keepers are a very, very, very small part of a huge machine.

    As cool as Ra-den's concept was (and I do believe he got a good, proper send-off in N'yalotha), he's really not special, unique, or cool enough. As far as writing's concerned, he played his part and that's all. All the other keepers played their parts too, sometimes they make appearances (Mimiron in the Legion BM artifact) if they survived the expansion. Ra-Den didn't.

    And trying to debate circles around the topic by imposing your personal opinion on his worth won't go anywhere, i'm afraid.
    Personal Preference and Opinions ≠ Facts, Truth, or Logic

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragerre View Post
    True. But that became true now, I assume "Highkeeper" before Legion used to mean what "Prime Designate" means now.
    Unknown. We know the Titans themselves chose Odyn as Prime Designate, which explicitly is the leader of all Titanforged on Azeroth. We have no idea what the title of Highkeeper means. Simply from observation it might be a second in command ranking, or a ranking meaning he was free to operate on his own far from the others.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

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