1. #1

    Is anyone else confused about the nature of the power of solar and lunar magic?

    In the next topic about available classes, people are discussing tauren paladins and the nature of their power, so I decided to create a separate post and discuss some of the problems of solar and lunar magic in Warcraft. Well, actually there is only one problem. We don't fucking know what it is.


    Let's start with the sun. Druids use solar magic so it seems to be nature. Or not?

    Let's start off by saying that tauren paladins are more likely to use Light, no matter what they believe in. ANYONE (well, almost, sorry, broken draenei) can use the Light simply by believing in something. Sunwalkers may believe in the Sun, but that doesn't mean they use the power of the Sun. They still use the Light. The Zandalari have Rezan's prelates and use the power of the Light even though they believe in Rezan, the being of Life. Azshara had Champions of Eternity using the Light. They are only loyal to Azshara, not Elune, and I've always thought they use the Light because they believe in Azshara herself. Heck, we even have examples of Shivarra and Eredar using the Light (and if with Shivarra this can be explained by a fanatical belief in Sargeras, then I'm not sure about the Eredar).


    But then things get more complicated. Don Addamas, Senior Game and Quest Designer of WoW once said on Twitter that the light magic of Arakkoa is not actually Light, but something similar to the solar magic of the druids. However, when the Chronicles came out, it was said that the Arakkoa actually use the Light and 3 of their gods are associated with various forces (Rukhmar is associated with the Light, Anzu with Arcane, Sete with the Void) and I prefer to believe the Chronicles because they came out later and were written by those who are really responsible for lore. However, the outer appearance of Rukhmar does indeed indicate more connection with the sun and fire than with heavenly light.

    Perhaps solar magic is a mixture of Light and Nature?


    With lunar magic, it's even more difficult. We have an astral school of spells in it, but I don't consider the in-game schools canon because of how far behind the lore they are. Shadow magic includes Void and Death, and Chaos is a combination of all schools of magic (even physical!), and not just Fel.


    One of the tweets (which is no longer available since Sean Copeland deleted his twitter, so I retell from memory) said:
    ''In lore, the Druids use the power of Nature. The fact that part of their spells deals damage from arcane magic is game mechanics. Also, the forces of Elune are considered divine, not natural magic, but the forces of the sun is fire magic. After all, divine magic is the magic of God.''

    But this statement can hardly be considered a canon, because the separation of purely arcane and divine magic (and their subspecies) is information from RPG books and it has long been outdated.

    Maybe the druids, following the example of the arcan'dor (or maybe Nordrassil to some extent, he still grew up on the second Well), restrain the arcane by nature? Maybe the night elves only forbiddance the use of pure arcane? Tyrande herself grew up in Suramar, where the Arcandor appeared. Maybe she suggested this idea to Malfurion.

    Perhaps the Night Elves don't mind using arcane magic, as long as the arcane is in harmony with nature. Even Nordrassil was created to contain the power of the Well of Eternity. So maybe astral spells are actually canon? Here is what was written in the description of the specialization in the Legion:

    ''The elements that carve form into the universe are fluid forces of nature. Some beings seek to bend the power of these natural elements to their will. Druids, however, worship the protecting spirits of nature. Long ago, nature's equilibrium was thrown out of balance, leaving the world vulnerable to catastrophic events, including the first invasion of the Burning Legion.

    By leveraging the sacred powers of the moon, the sun, and the stars, balance druids access arcane and nature magics—made more potent still through shapeshifting, when the spellcaster takes the form of the moonkin—to aid in the fight against imbalance that threatens the natural order of all things.''
    I'm really not sure how this relates to lore. Are these words absolute canon or are in-game schools of magic indicated here.


    Things get even more complicated because of Elune. Yes, I know that her connection with various powers is already so mysterious in itself and raises many questions, but I cannot ignore her in this post.

    Her priestesses use her power, and unlike other priests or paladins, she seems to personally empower them, rather than just using the power out of faith. This does not make her magic Light, I think she is able to bestow the power of Life (although her ability to clear Fel and Void is very impressive). Or Arcane? If the class description from the Legion is correct, then the druids use arcane. However, as we learned in the Shadowlands, Elune is a member of the Pantheon of Life. So the lunar spells are Life, and not Arcane? Or maybe Elune just decided to use Arcane more, much like Eonar prefers to use Life?


    Or is Elune still using the Light? In Loreology Sean Copeland, said that all playable priests use Light. We also know that she is somehow connected to the Naaru, maybe she created them, maybe not, but her artifact can at least activate the Heart of Xe'ra.


    Thoughts?

    P.S. And yes, I know that I think about it more than the developers and that Danuzer again wrote nonsense, linking Elune with the Winter Queen and officially calling her a member of the Pantheon of Life and now it is not clear whether she is more connected with Life, Light or Arcane (and not to mention that Tyrande Night Warrior even used the Void), but we're sitting here discussing lore, aren't we?
    Last edited by darkoms; 2022-05-21 at 02:38 PM.

  2. #2
    Yes, Blizz hasn't handled their magic systems well at all, frankly I think they overexplain it when some general 'here is where x magic comes from and what it can do, yes some magics overlap, and some oppose each other' would work fine.
    Twas brillig

  3. #3
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Yes, Blizz hasn't handled their magic systems well at all, frankly I think they overexplain it when some general 'here is where x magic comes from and what it can do, yes some magics overlap, and some oppose each other' would work fine.
    I'm pretty much on the same page here. In the general sense, people tend to cleave more toward "all or nothing" extreme type views - that a given magical essence has to be 100% Light, 100% Void, or 100% Arcane and there can be no uneven mixes of power. Titans, for example, seem to be a composite of Arcane, Spirit, and Elemental essences - having a broad spectrum of powers that don't really lend to a single school of magic. Similarly, WoW is full of entities that are essential composites, from dual-natured Elemental beings to veritable god-like beings who can wield multiple forms of magic.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I'm pretty much on the same page here. In the general sense, people tend to cleave more toward "all or nothing" extreme type views - that a given magical essence has to be 100% Light, 100% Void, or 100% Arcane and there can be no uneven mixes of power. Titans, for example, seem to be a composite of Arcane, Spirit, and Elemental essences - having a broad spectrum of powers that don't really lend to a single school of magic. Similarly, WoW is full of entities that are essential composites, from dual-natured Elemental beings to veritable god-like beings who can wield multiple forms of magic.
    I agree that Elune can wield any power, but what is lunar magic in and of itself? Part of what power? Or a mixture of what powers? The problem is how much conflicting knowledge there is about it.

    By the way, who are the dual-natured Elemental beings? Naaru?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I'm pretty much on the same page here. In the general sense, people tend to cleave more toward "all or nothing" extreme type views - that a given magical essence has to be 100% Light, 100% Void, or 100% Arcane and there can be no uneven mixes of power. Titans, for example, seem to be a composite of Arcane, Spirit, and Elemental essences - having a broad spectrum of powers that don't really lend to a single school of magic. Similarly, WoW is full of entities that are essential composites, from dual-natured Elemental beings to veritable god-like beings who can wield multiple forms of magic.
    Agreed with the all of nothing mindset. For instance people seem to be fixated on the Titans as the "Pantheon of Order" when their members used many different magical archetypes. Being an entity of arcane/order might give you a leg up in using that kind of magic, but nothing's saying you can't use whatever's available. Just look at the eredar, for instance. They were masters of many kinds of arcane, then the Legion came and they broke off into fel/warlocky/still arcane/shadow stuff and light/still arcane stuff.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  6. #6
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    I agree that Elune can wield any power, but what is lunar magic in and of itself? Part of what power? Or a mixture of what powers? The problem is how much conflicting knowledge there is about it.

    By the way, who are the dual-natured Elemental beings? Naaru?
    Lunar magic, as a type, always struck me as a composite of Arcane and Light energies - although various effects tend to fall in an either/or type outcome, with some effects of the Lunar type being Arcane, some being Light, and others even as Shadow (owing the night, shade, and darkness connotations).

    Lava Elementals are an example of a composite elemental being, being made of both Earth and Fire essences. Elemental imbalances at the Throne of the Elements on AU Draenor also are shown to give rise to elemental composites, such as Slag Elementals, that need to be dealt with as part of the subzone's quest-chain as they're considered by the orcish shaman as evidence of instability and/or imbalance in spirit realm.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Agreed with the all of nothing mindset. For instance people seem to be fixated on the Titans as the "Pantheon of Order" when their members used many different magical archetypes. Being an entity of arcane/order might give you a leg up in using that kind of magic, but nothing's saying you can't use whatever's available. Just look at the eredar, for instance. They were masters of many kinds of arcane, then the Legion came and they broke off into fel/warlocky/still arcane/shadow stuff and light/still arcane stuff.
    I think mortal eredar are different from the manifestations of the cosmic force itself.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Lunar magic, as a type, always struck me as a composite of Arcane and Light energies - although various effects tend to fall in an either/or type outcome, with some effects of the Lunar type being Arcane, some being Light, and others even as Shadow (owing the night, shade, and darkness connotations).

    Lava Elementals are an example of a composite elemental being, being made of both Earth and Fire essences. Elemental imbalances at the Throne of the Elements on AU Draenor also are shown to give rise to elemental composites, such as Slag Elementals, that need to be dealt with as part of the subzone's quest-chain as they're considered by the orcish shaman as evidence of instability and/or imbalance in spirit realm.
    So, you think lunar magic is not related to Life?



    Hmm, it seemed to me that only the primodoroial elementals remained in the lore, and the double elementals are a relic of the RPG. I mean, lava elementals serve Ragnaros specifically, we don't see them in Terrazan's service and that's weird.

  8. #8
    I don't think the lore existence of different types of damage is that confusing. But more recently Blizz has been attempting to explain the the source too much and its muddling things.
    The bigger issue is the game is simplifying damage types to just fire, light, nature, etc...
    Lore sources are easier to look at, Tauren Paladins don't use "the light", they use An'she power, the opposite of the Lunar power of Elune. But it's just "light" damage.
    When you understand the sources of these powers, you realize the oversimplification of what these classes are and their damage is simply the limitation of gameplay mechanics.

  9. #9
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    So, you think lunar magic is not related to Life?

    Hmm, it seemed to me that only the primodoroial elementals remained in the lore, and the double elementals are a relic of the RPG. I mean, lava elementals serve Ragnaros specifically, we don't see them in Terrazan's service and that's weird.
    Lunar magic feels more celestial to me, not part of the whole nature/spirit/life continuum. YMMV, of course; there's room enough for many interpretations.

    I think the issue with composite elementals in Ragnaros' service is down to the differences in Raganros and Therazane's temperaments. As shown in the Deepholm quests, Therazane is very focused on purity in her "children," and doesn't brook anything she deems anomalous. Ragnaros, on the other hand, doesn't seem so picky and is happy to have anyone under his banner that would forward his goals so long as it is nominally fire-adjacent.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    I think mortal eredar are different from the manifestations of the cosmic force itself.
    The point is there's nothing stopping these forces from mixing or a being native to one force from utilizing powers from other forces. Dreadlords, as we've found recently, were original death-based before some of them became fel infused and we know of one that became light infused.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Lunar magic feels more celestial to me, not part of the whole nature/spirit/life continuum. YMMV, of course; there's room enough for many interpretations.

    I think the issue with composite elementals in Ragnaros' service is down to the differences in Raganros and Therazane's temperaments. As shown in the Deepholm quests, Therazane is very focused on purity in her "children," and doesn't brook anything she deems anomalous. Ragnaros, on the other hand, doesn't seem so picky and is happy to have anyone under his banner that would forward his goals so long as it is nominally fire-adjacent.
    Yes, it upsets me that druids use moon spells rather than something more nature related.

    I once made a post about it https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-are-not-very- suitable for druid

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