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  1. #101
    Scarab Lord Lothaeryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    And keep Warcraft 3's main antagonists out of the story for 20 more years or something? No, plots have to start and end. The Legion's has ended. On with the next, and let's hope it's good.

    If it's not, everyone has a backlog of other games to play instead of one with a shitty story.
    I never stated that the Legion should be backlogged for 20 or so years, it (and other plots just like it) should be addressed and concluded in parts where and when it needed to be. but NOT before other stories were set up to replace it. Which they never did, and you blatantly even admit in this garbanzo response that you will go play another game instead as a result of that lack of preparation of a proper continuation of the story.

    New stories are always welcome when they have the proper prologue to lead them into the spotlight, Ill repeat again: Its not a hard fucking concept for normal people to understand. The fact you have the gall to shit out this disingenuous non-response that even concedes my point is plainly laughable. But you do you.
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  2. #102
    I think the problem was that they focused too much on the existing and lore to begin with. After wrath it should have all been new. Although at the end of dragonflight I have a feeling that we are going to all be pushed into the future.
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  3. #103
    Yeah I think a lot of stuff has been rushed too much too. So many enemies are killed moments after introduction that it gets hard to care about the villains.

    On the other hand though they can stretch content out too far and annoy players by dangling a plot thread for too long. He'll the sword in silithus has been pissing players off immensely because it wasn't dealt with immediately.
    I want some more slow burn villains but wow does a bad job at telling linear stories

  4. #104
    Stood in the Fire Chromeshellking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    Yeah I think a lot of stuff has been rushed too much too. So many enemies are killed moments after introduction that it gets hard to care about the villains.

    On the other hand though they can stretch content out too far and annoy players by dangling a plot thread for too long. He'll the sword in silithus has been pissing players off immensely because it wasn't dealt with immediately.
    I want some more slow burn villains but wow does a bad job at telling linear stories
    Kinda the in line mindset though with pushing expac after expac rubber stamping baddies. Business wise it makes sense. Lore/in game it just ruins too much. Wod was so much potential and it just got boxed out the window. Legion had moments but rushed towards the end. Bfa just...Well what else would say about a pile of melted ice cream. Skipped Shadow buffet so I can only comment on passing lore moments.
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  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by voidox View Post
    I know the books are canon, I never said they weren't. And the RPG is not up for debate, it is not canon as stated by Blizzard themselves: https://twitter.com/MickyNeilson/sta...76097590358016
    Are you deliberately reading only parts of sentences? I already stated that. TWICE. The party you're either not comprehending or deliberately ignoring is the fact that it is depicted IN. WARCARFT. III.. The Nerubians were part of Azj'Aqir. The Aqir served the Old Gods. There fore the Nerubians served the Old Gods. With me so far? I hope so. When Anu'Barak was leading Arthas through Azol-Nerub, he mentions some Nerubians tried to escape tyhe Scourge by burrowing deeper into the ground where they ran into Yogg-Saron's tentacles and "the Faceless Ones", known as N'raqi, started appearing. Why would the Nerubians be afraid of the N'raqi if they still worshiped the Old Gods? Surely they would have recognized their former master and his Herald, Vol'jaz. Especially since the Klaxxi Paragons were able to sense the presence of Y'Saarj when Garrosh unearthed his heart.

    I'm saying stuff happening in books but never seen in-game are pretty much meaningless to a large part of the player base. A HUGE complaint many of us have are how Blizzard keep putting important information/moments/story in books, instead of in the game.
    Doesn't change the fact that it still is part of the story. And the fact WoW has a transmedia narrative problem has been talked about since Cata/MoP at the very least.

    so sure, we can have all the descriptions of Ny'alotha in books, but they mean nothing to the fact that we got Ny'alotha in-game, and it was just a small raid zone and not what it should and could have been.
    We saw only a small section of it. That's like basing the Firelands raid on the Molten Front in Cata.

    As I've gone over many times now, a lot of people are going to see a N'zoth return as "oh, isn't that the cheap villain we kamehameha'd in that one patch?" or "oh great, another back from the dead character" and other such stuff.
    It's amazing how people didn't make the same argument about Ragnaros. Or Nefarian. We've fought them both twice now. We'll skip Onyxia since, while we've fought her twice, the second time was a mechanic of the Nefarian one.

    lol, this is a reply people make when they have no actual argument or point to make, nice one dude.
    Glad you agree your answers fit that decription.

    right, so as I said, bringing up the Zerith has nothing to do with the topic on hand. Glad you agree.
    It's something that they can use to empower the Old Gods. Now that we know there are at least five more of them, Blizzard has a chance to use them better than they did Mortis.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Unlimited Power View Post
    MoP was entirely out of left field with mostly new lore and a nice mix of new and established characters.

    And it was one of the most well received expansions ever, even if it did have some gameplay issues to be ironed out.

    It seems like Blizzard is aiming for a departure from the overarching cosmic story they've established of late, with more localized threats like we saw in MoP.

    I frankly look forward to the focus on exploration in a high fantasy setting. Especially since I've never been as hung up about the Old Gods and Azshara as some people tend to be on this forum.

    Besides, we still don't know the whereabouts of Azshara after she was freed in Ny'alotha. That plot is essentially unresolved.

    As is the case with Xal'atath and whatever deal she struck with N'Zoth.
    MoP wasn’t well received until after WoD. When MoP dropped ppl were shitting themselves over kung fu panda crossing over into Warcraft.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    It's extremely unfortunate if he doesn't, because narrative and game designer must collaborate in order to create successful content. If there is a conflict, we will continue to have the same story as in Shadowlands.
    At this point I am actually convinced that Ion gives more of a crap about the lore then Danuser. Shadowlands was so horrendously aweful and added a dozen different plotholes and cliffhangers for the one reason of allowing Sylvanas to walk away from her crimes (and appaear whenever she is needed again), that it is nigh impossible that someone that cares about the lore has written this story.

  8. #108
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Thats a weird way to say they don't have competent writers, cause there is plenty of stuff from wc3 and wc2 to work on, and even stuff from previous expansions.

    They straight up wasted N'zoth in a single crap patch of one shit expansion that turn to be all about Sylvanas, that was already copying MOP.

  9. #109
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    At this point I am actually convinced that Ion gives more of a crap about the lore then Danuser. Shadowlands was so horrendously aweful and added a dozen different plotholes and cliffhangers for the one reason of allowing Sylvanas to walk away from her crimes (and appaear whenever she is needed again), that it is nigh impossible that someone that cares about the lore has written this story.
    This Danuser derangement has really got to go.
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  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    I mean, not a single old god was more than a single patch. In comparison, N'zoth actually got the most out of it.

    Whether or not you agree with how they handled it though, he's still right at the end of the day. Everything was used pretty much.
    Old gods are generally boring and dumb. People only like them because they feel hipsterish to say they like something H. P. Lovecraft related.
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  11. #111
    Old God Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    WoW players and fans of the lore are going to have to stomach the fact they wasted N'zoth and he's likely never coming back. Azshara maybe, though her patch was pretty much all they had left to do with the Naga. We finally see Nazjatar and destroy it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    Old gods are generally boring and dumb. People only like them because they feel hipsterish to say they like something H. P. Lovecraft related.
    I've actually never heard of Hipsters and Lovecraft being interconnected.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Nachtigal View Post
    MoP wasn’t well received until after WoD. When MoP dropped ppl were shitting themselves over kung fu panda crossing over into Warcraft.
    In all fairness - Whenever we have an expansion it's somehow always worse than the previous one. Oh and don't forget the old "WoW will go FTP soon".

  13. #113
    In hindsight there never was any need to base every expansion around a main villain. Expansions could easily have been settings with several minor antagonists/threats that generated new bad guys as fast as other expansions consumed them.

    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    Old gods are generally boring and dumb. People only like them because they feel hipsterish to say they like something H. P. Lovecraft related.
    It's not about the old god at the end of the tunnel of madness, it's about the madness itself. It's about seeing normal people, normal communities get corrupted and be driven to insanity where the real stories lie. That's what makes the Old Gods such compelling villains in WoW.

    It's about starting in an ordinary place where the vibe is off and then seeing it unravel as you progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidox View Post
    How does he think this when Blizzard wasted Azshara and Nzoth in SINGLE patches when they are characters that are entire expansions onto their own?
    Yes! Particularly insufferable after giving the players only a glimpse of their beautiful domains through the means of a raid instance we blasted through. So much effort squandered on relatively tiny pieces of content. And what was the rush for? Seemed like they needed at least two more expansions to build up towards the Jailor plotting behind the scenes.
    Last edited by Iain; 2022-05-03 at 12:59 PM.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Eosia View Post
    Are you deliberately reading only parts of sentences?
    I truly wonder how you've arrived at that conclusion seeing as how I'm replying to each of your points/sentences one by one, quoting them all. Meanwhile, you continue to ignore vast parts of my post, cherry pick lines of my reply and refuse to answer the questions I've directed at you.

    so I dunno, maybe ask yourself that question.

    I already stated that. TWICE. The party you're either not comprehending or deliberately ignoring is the fact that it is depicted IN. WARCARFT. III.. The Nerubians were part of Azj'Aqir. The Aqir served the Old Gods. There fore the Nerubians served the Old Gods. With me so far? I hope so. When Anu'Barak was leading Arthas through Azol-Nerub, he mentions some Nerubians tried to escape tyhe Scourge by burrowing deeper into the ground where they ran into Yogg-Saron's tentacles and "the Faceless Ones", known as N'raqi, started appearing. Why would the Nerubians be afraid of the N'raqi if they still worshiped the Old Gods? Surely they would have recognized their former master and his Herald, Vol'jaz. Especially since the Klaxxi Paragons were able to sense the presence of Y'Saarj when Garrosh unearthed his heart.
    calm down and read mate, you brought up the RPG and the part of my reply you quoted was me saying the RPG is not canon, which the devs have stated as such.

    and again, the Nerubians have nothing to do with the topic on hand, as I've gone over multiple times now. Stop bringing up irrelevant stuff.

    Doesn't change the fact that it still is part of the story. And the fact WoW has a transmedia narrative problem has been talked about since Cata/MoP at the very least. .
    lol, and you accuse me of not reading.

    As I said, stuff happening the books doesn't mean anything to what players see in the game, and the overwhelming majority of WoW players only play the game and don't consume any other wow media. You literally are agreeing with me on this point.

    So ya, the fact that some characters described Ny'alotha in a book means nothing at all to the fact that we got Ny'alotha as a raid zone, which wasted what it could and should have been.

    We saw only a small section of it. That's like basing the Firelands raid on the Molten Front in Cata..
    "N'Zoth and Ny'alotha were ultimately destroyed together when Azeroth's champions used the [Heart of Azeroth] to fire the powers of the Forge of Origination, empowered by the Engine of Nalak'sha, upon the corruptor."

    maybe look up the lore before replying.

    And once again I have to repeat myself, we got what we got of Ny'alotha and it was wasted compared to what the descriptions of the city were/are. That impact of seeing the Sleeping City for the first time, entering to the horrors of the city, the potential of crazy mind mazes/puzzles and so on are all lost cause we literally already went to it and defeated N'zoth/destroyed it.

    How many times do I have to repeat myself until you get what I'm saying?

    It's amazing how people didn't make the same argument about Ragnaros. Or Nefarian. We've fought them both twice now. We'll skip Onyxia since, while we've fought her twice, the second time was a mechanic of the Nefarian one..
    Moving the Goalposts 101

    sorry buddy, but what people did or didn't say about other stuff is literally irrelevant to the topic on hand, which is about Azshara and Nzoth.

    Glad you agree your answers fit that decription..
    nope, it's me saying you have no argument to make and you trying for "gotcha" moments is failing so badly that I would advise you to just stop. When people stop arguing the points, that's when everyone knows they've lost the argument, i.e. what you did.

    At this point, what even is your argument other than replying for the sake of replying? are you going to keep bringing up irrelevant things, not read my post entirely and ignore the topic on hand? as I said before, your first post was not even disagreeing with my OP, so how have you dragged this on so long? -_-

    But hey, you keep falling on your face trying to "argue" since it seems you literally cannot take the L and move on.

    It's something that they can use to empower the Old Gods. Now that we know there are at least five more of them, Blizzard has a chance to use them better than they did Mortis.
    once again, I find it hilarious how you accuse me of not reading when I've literally addressed this exact point. It's amazing how you just ignore so much of my replies and cherry pick out sentences.

    I've gone over how I'm not talking about anything but a solo N'zoth return and his wasted potential/impact on his release. Stop bringing up irrelevant shit. What blizzard may or may not do with the Zerith has nothing at all to do with how N'zoth was wasted in a single patch, and a lot of people in this thread agree with this.

    but hey, I 100% expect yet another reply from you ignoring most of this post, cherry picking lines to reply to and continuing to bring up irrelevant stuff that have nothing to do with the topic on hand. I'd bet money on it.
    Last edited by voidox; 2022-05-04 at 09:12 PM.

  15. #115
    Moderator Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    @Eosia @voidox

    Please keep your “one to-one” debates to private messages and stay on topic. If it continues, the thread will become contaminated.
    Last edited by Cloudmaker; 2022-05-04 at 10:21 PM.
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  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Nachtigal View Post
    MoP wasn’t well received until after WoD. When MoP dropped ppl were shitting themselves over kung fu panda crossing over into Warcraft.
    the panda thing is still not well received to this day lol,the problem with mop was initial reception,bad daily implementation early on,and pretty big content drough at the end,but everything else was top tier about mop,you rarely see it outside of top 3 expansion lists

  17. #117
    They brought this misery on themselves for vantiy reasons.

    As others said: they wasted long standing villains that would be worth expansions in a patch. The wealth of characters and lore they inherited would have given them ample time to develop new lore without it feeling rushed or shallow.

    Instead, they treated the lore legacy they were given like a read-headed step child the stepfather wants to get rid of because it's not "his".

    This is really as stupid as it gets.


  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovok View Post
    It should serve as your reminder that Ion really doesn't give a damn about lore.
    No wonder Lore quit Blizzard then!

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    the panda thing is still not well received to this day lol,the problem with mop was initial reception,bad daily implementation early on,and pretty big content drough at the end,but everything else was top tier about mop,you rarely see it outside of top 3 expansion lists
    Ikr? I loved mop to pieces, played it from first to last second. Damn all those edgelords without a sense of humor.
    Also, daily implementation was fixed swiftly after player feedback.

    Compare that to the shitshow that ensued afterwards. We had expansions were major features received a complete overhaul mid xpac.
    In comparison, MoP looks like gold to me.


  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by voidox View Post
    https://clips.twitch.tv/SweetExcitedDonkeyBleedPurple-1eYyUnmxoaUWx1Pl

    so in the start of the Asmongold interview with Ion, Ion actually says this: "we mined out a lot of the lore and original settings from Warcraft 3 and onwards"... and I'm left baffled at this.

    How does he think this when Blizzard wasted Azshara and Nzoth in SINGLE patches when they are characters that are entire expansions onto their own?

    Even legion's final patch had so much potential and content for a full expansion - army of the light rebuilding, azeroth invading different legion worlds, Xe'ra, turalyon/alleria backstory, legion's end, more of sargeras than him just showing up randomly at the end, titan revival plot, draenei and argus and so much more.

    heck, if BFA wasn't bogged down by Azshara/Nzoth/Sylvanus, there's another full expansion that can properly focus on a Fourth War.

    is this seriously something the game director thinks about narrative of the game? that they "mined out" almost everything from OG warcraft so they had to make up all this new stuff for SL? how is he ignoring how much expansion material (stuff directly tied to Azeroth and Warcraft) they wasted in single patches?

    I dunno, this just seems absolutely ridiculous for a lead Blizzard dev to say imo. This is really what they think the state of the lore is.

    EDIT - think people are bit confused by my title, Ion said "WC3 and onwards" and I probably should have not left that part out of the title, though I was running out of space so I condensed it. Anyways, my point is that it's not just about WC3 as WoW has a lot existing lore outside of WC3 that can be used for content.
    My honest reply to the is simple:

    The creators wanted to tell that story while they still had the chance.

    It's no secret, most of the creators of Warcraft lore have moved on from the company. Telling their story in short patches, albeit possibly doing the characters injustice, could have simply been the creators wanting to tie up loose ends on how they envisioned the story before ultimately retiring/stepping away from the project completely.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nachtigal View Post
    MoP wasn’t well received until after WoD. When MoP dropped ppl were shitting themselves over kung fu panda crossing over into Warcraft.
    I would argue that most of the people that have fond memories from MoP weren't there from the beginning. I vividly recall several friends that essentially boycotted the expansion until they offered Mop free as a bonus to WoD pre-order; by that time MoP was in a decent place after all the patches, so they got to experience SOO without the burnout others experienced from the previous raid tiers. Looking at MoP from that perspective, I can understand the nostalgia, pandas notwithstanding.

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