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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrexia View Post
    The more addons they can make redundant the better to be absolutely honest.
    This. Just disabling addons would be a huge mistake. If you incorporate their functionality into the base game however, this is a huge win. And we've seen it countless times: be it TomTom, Questie, the addons that gave you effects on your HUD, the addons that made certains abilities glow on your actionbars, all the bag autosort addons and many, many more. So many functionalities were taken from addons and put into the base game.

    But this is what makes WoW the best MMO out there imo. Players still have a huge selection of customization when it comes to their interface and support tools. Getting a new trinket you forget to use? Just write a WA to remind you! Pet battles are boring and repetitive? Just write a Script and let the addon do the battle! The mission table is just... bad? Venture Plan to the rescue! You don't have two monitors to look up the different anima powers you can get from the enemies in Torghast? There's an addon for that! Lords of dread are basically impossible to pug? Well, WA to the rescue! You have poor self esteem in real life but outgear everyone in lfr? Skada/Recount/Details will get you the confidence boost your parents never gave you!

    What I'm saying here is, that as long as addons are around, many oversights and mistakes made by Blizzard can be fixed by the community. And it would be so much work for Blizzard to incorporate all the different functionalities we enjoy now through our addons into the game, that disabling addons (and even only combat addons) more more precise: the functions in the interface would do way more harm than good.

  2. #42
    What fight in the last few raids have been designed with addons in mind?

  3. #43
    The Lightbringer Lollis's Avatar
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    How about we don't push for Blizzard to take advice from someone who is notoriously bad at the game and who gets carried by his community? Just a thought.
    Guess what the point of this thread is, discussing if that's the thing this game really needs, more barriers to entry...
    There is nothing at all stopping a casual from downloading DBM. It doesn't require any thought or preperation whatsoever. Addons are not a barrier to entry just because people are too lazy to install an addon updater.

    Is this what we want to do? to remove addons and go back to Molten Core where the difficulty is decided by watching a fucking debuff timer at the top of the screen? Addons are a neccessity because we AREN'T in the world. Without some sort of haptic feedback we are massively limited by how information is able to be delivered if an addon is not used, which ultimately means that encounters would be required to be simplified to the extent that people just won't want to play. What are the alternatives? Glowing auras where you change colour? Special sound effects? Big arrows telling you were abilities are going to hit on EVERY encounter?

    You think DBM or a Weakaura makes something like Mythic Stormwall Blockade easy? You think they make Mythic Artificer a walk in the park?

    Raid encounters are able to be interesting and complex BECAUSE of addons like DBM and Weakauras, without them we are limited to visual hints in the form of buffs and debuffs, have fun calling them out Mr Raid Leader.
    Speciation Is Gradual

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by pinglong View Post
    People who haven't beat Jailer on Normal talking about removing combat add ons lmao, why do WoW players act like a handful of the top guilds custom designing weakauras on a couple of mythic bosses effects their playtime? I have KSM and AOTC from season 1 without DBM or WA, the mechanics are easy.

    Also FFXIV does have add ons, they just get used quietly for obvious reasons.
    The only bossfight where an addon is required it Lords of Dread imo.
    Even with voicechat coordinating the imposters is a huge hassle. In every other case DBM and the likes are just a crutch for players, who don't know the boss fights well enough yet. And for guilds it's a tool to help raid leaders. Instead of the leader having to announce every ability (and what to do) to his raid. an addon does the job.

    And I think the entire comparison to FF14 falls flat, since FF14 is not a game designed around progressing difficult PvE content.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    What fight in the last few raids have been designed with addons in mind?
    Lords of Dread.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    The only bossfight where an addon is required it Lords of Dread imo.
    Even with voicechat coordinating the imposters is a huge hassle. In every other case DBM and the likes are just a crutch for players, who don't know the boss fights well enough yet. And for guilds it's a tool to help raid leaders. Instead of the leader having to announce every ability (and what to do) to his raid. an addon does the job.

    And I think the entire comparison to FF14 falls flat, since FF14 is not a game designed around progressing difficult PvE content.

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    Lords of Dread.
    Lords of Dread is the only one I would agree with. Sure, it is possible, but it is nigh impossible to pug it. Other than that, there is no boss fight that is impossible without addons.

    Ever since Legion, bosses have been developed less and less with addons in mind. Archimonde Mythic was impossible without addons, for example, and I feel like it was probably the most addon reliant boss ever.

  6. #46
    The Lightbringer Lollis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrexia View Post
    you need to put in that extra effort to keep them updated with each patch
    Install Wowup > Install DBM > Run WoW > Get notification from others that DBM is updated > Open Wowup > Press update addons > Reload UI > Play game.

    The 'extra effort' that is required to keep them updated is literally two extra mouse clicks, an alt tab, and typing /reloadui every couple of weeks.
    Speciation Is Gradual

  7. #47
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    Not saying there's isn't an issue with some boss mods, but installing DBM or bigwigs and downloading a weak aura is not exactly a herculean effort on the part of a player.

    It's actually a decent litmus test for whether or not someone is worth having in a raid group, almost like someone showing up to an interview in sweatpants instead of a suit!
    It is however not very casual friendly. Imagine prior to logging on to say call of duty or fortnight or whatever other bs you had to install an entire set of mods as well as look up boss starts and how to play your character etc etc
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  8. #48
    He said they are working on making encounters more readable without addons... nothing about breaking addons.

    Killing addons will be one of the quicker ways for the game to be killed of I imagine. People don't like their personal customization to be removed.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It is however not very casual friendly. Imagine prior to logging on to say call of duty or fortnight or whatever other bs you had to install an entire set of mods as well as look up boss starts and how to play your character etc etc
    Well, there's lfr for that. Also you can just read the dungeon journal and know what to do. It's pretty precise. But I doubt that many players even know about that option. Well sure, they know about it, but are incapable of understanding it. It's far easier for them to have an addon tell them what to do. And for veteran players it's nice to have acousic signals that condition you. WoW's interface is incredibly bloated and you often spend more time looking at actionbars or raid/unit frames (especially as a healer) than at the boss. Not using meaningful audio signals is one of WoW's biggest weaknesses. And I know that bosses talk before using an important ability. But in the grand scheme of things some boss lines are not as useful as a short, loud warning sound.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Lollis View Post
    Install Wowup > Install DBM > Run WoW > Get notification from others that DBM is updated > Open Wowup > Press update addons > Reload UI > Play game.

    The 'extra effort' that is required to keep them updated is literally two extra mouse clicks, an alt tab, and typing /reloadui every couple of weeks.
    I don't have WoWup or any launcher installed to be honest but all of these steps to play a game SHOULD NOT be necessary, to say but its only a few clicks is defeating the purpose of being able to play a game out of the box.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It is however not very casual friendly. Imagine prior to logging on to say call of duty or fortnight or whatever other bs you had to install an entire set of mods as well as look up boss starts and how to play your character etc etc
    Pretty much this, MODS should NOT be a necessary edition to enjoy the game.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    The only bossfight where an addon is required it Lords of Dread imo.
    Even with voicechat coordinating the imposters is a huge hassle. In every other case DBM and the likes are just a crutch for players, who don't know the boss fights well enough yet. And for guilds it's a tool to help raid leaders. Instead of the leader having to announce every ability (and what to do) to his raid. an addon does the job.
    Curiously, that's also one where the addon isn't really doing the things Ion complains about. It just simplifies communication. You still have to communicate and you're communicating the same information. All actual action is still on the players.

    Some people in my raid do still try to do it through VC. We usually beat them up and get knocked back when they reach 1 HP...

  12. #52
    The real big one that comes to mind is weakauras. That shit has gotten out of control. I think the base idea of the ability to track procs / trinkets / and cooldowns is fine and I think that is where it started. But man.. that thing now can tell you where to move, what to click, how to do your rotation, and every boss ability with now to react to it all rolling at the same time. Top end guilds have weakaura departments with staffs. That tells you its a problem. If you invest real world money into paying a staff to create addon strings for your raid to progress more efficiently it tells you that those without that probably are going to have a bit of an issue. That shouldn't be part of the arms race in a video game no matter how degen of a level someone is playing it for their job.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Nutri View Post
    If they introduced ways of telegraphing certain abilities better in game, the need for them could be diminished.
    Obvious stuff like the boss saying a specific phrase followed by a specific action. Or the boss flashing before an ability is cast.

    Imho what plays the use of addons in hand is bosses having scripted abilities on a fixed timer. That's an open door for addon makers, and quite logical. Track time and pop up a notification on time-stamps. This doesn't have to change, but they could make that sequence more obvious by just looking at the boss/fight. An add running over to a specific place, the boss starting a certain animation.

    One thing I really wish for is adding outlines to stuff on the ground and cone attacks. I really dislike the "am I in the fire or out the fire if I stand here? Can't really tell". Margrave Stradama is a good example of that. The tentacle slam visual on the floor is actually smaller than it's hitbox. If you where to stand just next to the graphic on the floor you'd get clapped even tho visually your character isn't in the targeted area.
    I can't speak for the latest raids,but I've raided in mythic from its inception to the siege of dazar alor, and there's nothing that's actually impossible to see coming without addons. Most people don't really realise that but that's because with addons, they simply don't have to look for it. I wouldn't mind having real ground telegraphs like in FFXIV tho. There's no possible ambiguity that way

    Telegraphs are a LOT more present than they used to be, as bosses in earlier raids had numerous, untelegraphed instant cast abilities that you kinda just had to guess. Shazzrah in Molten Core for example randomly silences the entire raid without warning if I recall correctly

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    Quote Originally Posted by Low Hanging Fruit View Post
    The real big one that comes to mind is weakauras. That shit has gotten out of control. I think the base idea of the ability to track procs / trinkets / and cooldowns is fine and I think that is where it started. But man.. that thing now can tell you where to move, what to click, how to do your rotation, and every boss ability with now to react to it all rolling at the same time. Top end guilds have weakaura departments with staffs. That tells you its a problem. If you invest real world money into paying a staff to create addon strings for your raid to progress more efficiently it tells you that those without that probably are going to have a bit of an issue. That shouldn't be part of the arms race in a video game no matter how degen of a level someone is playing it for their job.
    Yeah weak auras have become straight up ridiculous. Even back in HFC, WAs managed to straight up negate entire boss fights, and the amount of investment put into WA development has grown exponentially since.
    I honestly wouldn't even care if it was just a thing world first raiders used,but the issue is that it then seeps into standard raiding,to the point where most raid teams just straight up demand people use WA along with the crazier scripts that ruin boss encounters

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    He said they are working on making encounters more readable without addons... nothing about breaking addons.

    Killing addons will be one of the quicker ways for the game to be killed of I imagine. People don't like their personal customization to be removed.
    That’s ridiculous. The game can survive without addons, there are a ton of games that allow 0 addons, and honestly I’d wager the majority of great games don’t allow for them.

    Ian described the issue with addons perfectly with that boss fight in ICC. It is probably one of the easiest bosses mechanically in the game, but without these addons it can turn to madness very quickly with how many people need bit. Now with these addons you just setup a weakauras before anything is even pulled and a button will pop up on your window when it comes time to do the thing you need to do and then you hit the button.

    That is automated play 100%, and it’s boring as fuck. So what they are forced to do is to create these congested, over complicated, messes of boss fights because they can’t just make fights without having the ease of addons in mind. And Ian even plainly stated for everyone to hear, what their roadblock is for crushing these addons. If they were to crush these addons then all UI addons go down with it.

    Good.

    Crush all of them.

    Crush all the arena addons too, all ui addons, make you in game ui more customizable and then literally just ban all addons 100%.

    We can go back to making actual interesting boss fights that aren’t made trivial with an addon and you know what? A lot of botting programs are only functioning because of a custom addon they made so it would honestly take out some of those bots too.

    Screw those addons, you can play without your super specific UI. You’ll be just fine. Don’t be a snowflake.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Temporaldrift View Post
    That’s ridiculous. The game can survive without addons, there are a ton of games that allow 0 addons, and honestly I’d wager the majority of great games don’t allow for them.

    Ian described the issue with addons perfectly with that boss fight in ICC. It is probably one of the easiest bosses mechanically in the game, but without these addons it can turn to madness very quickly with how many people need bit. Now with these addons you just setup a weakauras before anything is even pulled and a button will pop up on your window when it comes time to do the thing you need to do and then you hit the button.

    That is automated play 100%, and it’s boring as fuck. So what they are forced to do is to create these congested, over complicated, messes of boss fights because they can’t just make fights without having the ease of addons in mind. And Ian even plainly stated for everyone to hear, what their roadblock is for crushing these addons. If they were to crush these addons then all UI addons go down with it.

    Good.

    Crush all of them.

    Crush all the arena addons too, all ui addons, make you in game ui more customizable and then literally just ban all addons 100%.

    We can go back to making actual interesting boss fights that aren’t made trivial with an addon and you know what? A lot of botting programs are only functioning because of a custom addon they made so it would honestly take out some of those bots too.

    Screw those addons, you can play without your super specific UI. You’ll be just fine. Don’t be a snowflake.
    Aggressive but I agree, I advocate the destruction of all addons, make people use their brains again.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrexia View Post
    Aggressive but I agree, I advocate the destruction of all addons, make people use their brains again.
    Yeah I don’t mean to sound aggressive but when the answers for defending addons are always something like “but we can’t because people like custom ui” I just roll my eyes. How many amazing games are released with standard, uncustomizable, bland UIs?

    Like why on earth would anyone want to hold the game back just so you can have your spells be on a custom looking bar lol. That sort of stuff needs to be shut down imo and just go with what’s best for the game.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It is however not very casual friendly. Imagine prior to logging on to say call of duty or fortnight or whatever other bs you had to install an entire set of mods as well as look up boss starts and how to play your character etc etc
    Sure but organized group content is by its nature not casual friendly. Raiding is nothing like CoD or Fortnight.

    (If you want to argue that it should be, that's a different convo imo)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Temporaldrift View Post
    That’s ridiculous. The game can survive without addons, there are a ton of games that allow 0 addons, and honestly I’d wager the majority of great games don’t allow for them.

    Ian described the issue with addons perfectly with that boss fight in ICC. It is probably one of the easiest bosses mechanically in the game, but without these addons it can turn to madness very quickly with how many people need bit. Now with these addons you just setup a weakauras before anything is even pulled and a button will pop up on your window when it comes time to do the thing you need to do and then you hit the button.

    That is automated play 100%, and it’s boring as fuck. So what they are forced to do is to create these congested, over complicated, messes of boss fights because they can’t just make fights without having the ease of addons in mind. And Ian even plainly stated for everyone to hear, what their roadblock is for crushing these addons. If they were to crush these addons then all UI addons go down with it.

    Good.

    Crush all of them.

    Crush all the arena addons too, all ui addons, make you in game ui more customizable and then literally just ban all addons 100%.

    We can go back to making actual interesting boss fights that aren’t made trivial with an addon and you know what? A lot of botting programs are only functioning because of a custom addon they made so it would honestly take out some of those bots too.

    Screw those addons, you can play without your super specific UI. You’ll be just fine. Don’t be a snowflake.
    Thankfully the developers do not share this opinion and probably never will. As he said, a huge section of their playerbase appreciates add-ons. You're just tilting at windmills when you can play a different MMO that bans them

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    Quote Originally Posted by Temporaldrift View Post
    Yeah I don’t mean to sound aggressive but when the answers for defending addons are always something like “but we can’t because people like custom ui” I just roll my eyes. How many amazing games are released with standard, uncustomizable, bland UIs?

    Like why on earth would anyone want to hold the game back just so you can have your spells be on a custom looking bar lol. That sort of stuff needs to be shut down imo and just go with what’s best for the game.
    Moddable singleplayer games are also great. Look at every Bethesda game! If they release TES 6 without add-ons it would be a disaster.

    Fans often build better UIs than developers. Vanilla Skyrim is a pretty shit game!
    Last edited by Ashana Darkmoon; 2022-05-01 at 02:56 PM.

  18. #58
    What I'd miss, assuming Blizzard actually did go for the nuclear fuck-you option of completely disabling addon support, is probably my RP profile addons. As absolutely fun and wholesome as the "Fuck all combat addon users, eat shit and cry," direction of discussion always is, I don't have too many dogs in that fight, as I don't play at a level at which DBM and Weakauras are necessary for me to play my class above shit-tier and also understand what's going on in a fight. I wouldn't care all that much if Blizzard found some way to make combat addons in particular more unviable or unnecessary. Canning all addons, though, including the ones that don't hurt peoples' feelings, would probably sting a little bit more than I feel is necessary for what they say they want to achieve.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    Sure but organized group content is by its nature not casual friendly. Raiding is nothing like CoD or Fortnight.

    (If you want to argue that it should be, that's a different convo imo)

    - - - Updated - - -



    Thankfully the developers do not share this opinion and probably never will. As he said, a huge section of their playerbase appreciates add-ons. You're just tilting at windmills when you can play a different MMO that bans them

    - - - Updated - - -



    Moddable singleplayer games are also great. Look at every Bethesda game! If they release TES 6 without add-ons it would be a disaster.

    Fans often build better UIs than developers. Vanilla Skyrim is a pretty shit game!
    Single player games are not comparable to MMOs at all. The moment you add in the multiplayer aspect, whether you attempt to not participate in it or not, it adds a new aspect.

    Hacking in Skyrim? Literally who cares as long as you’re having fun. Hacking in wow? You need permabanned.

    And let’s not act like we know what the devs are thinking. We will see how good their custom UI options are and then see where they go from there

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Temporaldrift View Post
    That’s ridiculous. The game can survive without addons, there are a ton of games that allow 0 addons, and honestly I’d wager the majority of great games don’t allow for them.

    Ian described the issue with addons perfectly with that boss fight in ICC. It is probably one of the easiest bosses mechanically in the game, but without these addons it can turn to madness very quickly with how many people need bit. Now with these addons you just setup a weakauras before anything is even pulled and a button will pop up on your window when it comes time to do the thing you need to do and then you hit the button.

    That is automated play 100%, and it’s boring as fuck. So what they are forced to do is to create these congested, over complicated, messes of boss fights because they can’t just make fights without having the ease of addons in mind. And Ian even plainly stated for everyone to hear, what their roadblock is for crushing these addons. If they were to crush these addons then all UI addons go down with it.

    Good.

    Crush all of them.

    Crush all the arena addons too, all ui addons, make you in game ui more customizable and then literally just ban all addons 100%.

    We can go back to making actual interesting boss fights that aren’t made trivial with an addon and you know what? A lot of botting programs are only functioning because of a custom addon they made so it would honestly take out some of those bots too.

    Screw those addons, you can play without your super specific UI. You’ll be just fine. Don’t be a snowflake.
    I'm not saying games without add-ons can't work... You have an entire triade against a point I didn't make.

    Removing add-ons that allow for customization which has been part of the game for the entire existence is not gonna be met with praise.

    People don't like removal of customization options that has been part of it for so long. Which I believe is true. Taking things away aren't met with joy.

    Only at the end you seemed to touch upon my argument... But only with anger, no arguments.
    Not sure why I'm a snowflake because I recognize issues and make a theory that it won't be good to remove add-ons.

    Changing how they design encounters I'm all for it. So I even agree with most of your post. But damn, calm down.

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