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  1. #1

    Lorehole: If the Titans are the Pantheon of Order, why...

    If the Titans are the Pantheon of Order, why were they born in the Great Dark Beyond instead of on the Plane of Order/arcane?

    One explanation would be that just as the Old Gods were flung out of the Void like spermatozoa, the World Souls are "sparks" of arcane energy that were flung out of the Arcane Plane.

    But the titans are supposed to be the Pantheon -- comparable to the Void Lords, not the Old Gods.
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    She lost against Arthas for purpose. She wanted to feed Quel'thalas to hungering darkness.

  2. #2
    Arcane not having a real pantheon just like Fel makes sense.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldielocks View Post
    Arcane not having a real pantheon just like Fel makes sense.
    The Titans have been called the Pantheon of Order several times. And it was never said that Fel didn't have a Pantheon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kansor View Post
    If the Titans are the Pantheon of Order, why were they born in the Great Dark Beyond instead of on the Plane of Order/arcane?

    One explanation would be that just as the Old Gods were flung out of the Void like spermatozoa, the World Souls are "sparks" of arcane energy that were flung out of the Arcane Plane.

    But the titans are supposed to be the Pantheon -- comparable to the Void Lords, not the Old Gods.
    Who knows? Brokers speculate that the Titans (perhaps unknowingly) inherited the mantle of cosmic lords from the First Ones, so it is possible that they themselves somehow broke into the material universe from their Plane of Order.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    The Titans have been called the Pantheon of Order several times. And it was never said that Fel didn't have a Pantheon.
    ”According to the titan’s point of view.”

    Be prepared for anything.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldielocks View Post
    ”According to the titan’s point of view.”

    Be prepared for anything.
    No, Danuser called them the Pantheon of Order.

  6. #6
    It would be hilarious if in the Arcane Realm there's an Arcane Pantheon that's all "Okay, so the plan was to send small arcanomentals into the cores of planets, have them slowly absorb all the world's magic, consolidate it into a single form, and bring it back here. But, they forgot who they were during their slumber, and never made it back here".

    But yeah, it does seem odd that the main forces of order, and main forces of chaos, seem not to be as confined as the other four forces. The Pantheon of Order seems loose in the material world. And the forces of chaos seem loose in the other side of the coin, the Twisting Nether. Life, Death, Void and Light seem to be more confined.

    I know we're minutes away from the thread being swarmed by the mopium crowd of "lol, lore sucks. Don't try to make sense of it". Still, lorewise, there's probably a reason for it. because it's in such a mirrored process. And may be to do with how the universe is set up, with a structured side, and a chaotic side in the Twisting Nether.

  7. #7
    I don't know if things have changed at this point..but isn't the Fel more or less result of two older forces Void and Light clashing. I would assume it has no original pantheon as its a younger force. Just entities that become strong in it like Sargeras.

  8. #8
    Maybe the constellars are the true citizens of the order plane.

  9. #9
    I don't think the Titans are the pantheon of Order. I think they're the pantheon of Reality.

    Yes, they're heavily associated with Order but as we've seen they can be influenced and infused by any of the cosmic forces. Eonar is infused with Life, Argus was infused with Death. The unnamed Titan killed by Sargeras was infused with Shadow. Maybe Order merely discovered them first.

    From what we know of the various pantheons they are created within their respective realms. They are artificial lifeforms, made to guard and oversee those realms in service of the First Ones. Titans are not created in the realm of Order, nor are they even created at all - they are born naturally within Reality as "world souls". And as said, they can seemingly skew towards any of the cosmic forces.
    Last edited by Netherspark; 2022-04-30 at 08:34 PM.

  10. #10
    Maybe the Great Dark is a realm of order.

    Shadowlands is a death realm, Twisting nether is a chaos realm.

    The seat of the Pantheon is the heart of the Great Dark, like Oribos, and somewhere in the physical universe(order plane), there could be Zereth Ordos, Titan's homeworld.

  11. #11
    Moderator Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kansor View Post
    If the Titans are the Pantheon of Order, why were they born in the Great Dark Beyond instead of on the Plane of Order/arcane?

    One explanation would be that just as the Old Gods were flung out of the Void like spermatozoa, the World Souls are "sparks" of arcane energy that were flung out of the Arcane Plane.

    But the titans are supposed to be the Pantheon -- comparable to the Void Lords, not the Old Gods.
    Because there was no Plane of Order before they were born, they created it after. It happened literally when planets formed and began orbiting the stars.
    Behold my new creation!


  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Netherspark View Post
    I don't think the Titans are the pantheon of Order. I think they're the pantheon of Reality.

    Yes, they're heavily associated with Order but as we've seen they can be influenced and infused by any of the cosmic forces. Eonar is infused with Life, Argus was infused with Death. The unnamed Titan killed by Sargeras was infused with Shadow. Maybe Order merely discovered them first.

    From what we know of the various pantheons they are created within their respective realms. They are artificial lifeforms, made to guard and oversee those realms in service of the First Ones. Titans are not created in the realm of Order, nor are they even created at all - they are born naturally within Reality as "world souls". And as said, they can seemingly skew towards any of the cosmic forces.
    I have a similar theory. Considering that Argus was "imprisoned" in the World (something bound him and a planet formed around him, according to Thousand Year War audiodrama), what if the titan souls existed before as separate entities - each being the High Deity of its respective plane (Eonar - Life, Aman'thul - Order, Argus - Death, etc), but Eonar brainwashed Aman'thul and used him to enslave all the other titans and gather them under the false banner of Order? (Yes, I am a big fan of Pyromancer's theory that Eonar is manipulating Aman'thul).

  13. #13
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    The Titans have been called the Pantheon of Order several times. And it was never said that Fel didn't have a Pantheon.
    Have they ever been explicitly called the Pantheon of Order? I think it has been implied, but unsure where it has been directly stated. That said, if there is a Fel Pantheon, there needs to be a riot on the official forums. "Hey guys, we're the forces of Disorder, also called Chaos, but are actually governed in a strict hierarchy instead of being emblematic of our realm's nature." would be incredibly dumb.
    Last edited by Magical Mudcrab; 2022-05-01 at 09:42 AM.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by kansor View Post
    If the Titans are the Pantheon of Order, why were they born in the Great Dark Beyond instead of on the Plane of Order/arcane?
    Retcon incoming!

  15. #15
    If the titans are the pantheon of order, why do they have power over life (Eonar) and death (Argus)?

    Is it explained somewhere? Because i've become really confused during shadowlands.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    Have they ever been explicitly called the Pantheon of Order? I think it has been implied, but unsure where it has been directly stated. That said, if there is a Fel Pantheon, there needs to be a riot on the official forums. "Hey guys, we're the forces of Disorder, also called Chaos, but are actually governed in a strict hierarchy instead of being emblematic of our realm's nature." would be incredibly dumb.
    I never understood why every time I mention the Pantheon of Confusion, all the people around feel it is their duty to say about the HIERARCHY ORDERNESS NOT FOR DEMONS!111!!

    1. Even before Sargeras, demons under the command of pit lords were destroying planets. They always had a hierarchy, just not as ordered
    2. Have you ever heard of Warhammer? Chaos Gods? The Pantheon of Disorder doesn't have to cooperate, they can just fight each other and they don't care about Sargeras. Sargeras did not subdue all the demons in general, but only a part of them. Others may fight alongside members of the Pantheon of Disorder

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garkanh View Post
    If the titans are the pantheon of order, why do they have power over life (Eonar) and death (Argus)?

    Is it explained somewhere? Because i've become really confused during shadowlands.
    I don't know about Eonar, but the Nathrezim intentionally imbued Argus with the power of Death so that he would knock out the Arbiter.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Garkanh View Post
    If the titans are the pantheon of order, why do they have power over life (Eonar) and death (Argus)?

    Is it explained somewhere? Because i've become really confused during shadowlands.
    For the same reason that up until Shadowlands's retcons, the force of 'Death' was represented exclusively by the undead made by the Burning Legion with fel magic. Or why the force of life is distinct from the Emerald Dream. Both Chronicle and later Shadowlands are trying their damndest to turn a soft magic setting into a hard magic setting and have to then square a whole lot of things that don't make sense into it. If you want some more legacy bits, Shamans used to get their powers from the Nether same as warlocks and arcane and fel weren't actually opposing forces.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    For the same reason that up until Shadowlands's retcons, the force of 'Death' was represented exclusively by the undead made by the Burning Legion with fel magic. Or why the force of life is distinct from the Emerald Dream. Both Chronicle and later Shadowlands are trying their damndest to turn a soft magic setting into a hard magic setting and have to then square a whole lot of things that don't make sense into it. If you want some more legacy bits, Shamans used to get their powers from the Nether same as warlocks and arcane and fel weren't actually opposing forces.
    Death has never been associated only with the Burning Legion. Before the Chronicles, necromancy was a school of arcane magic, starting from the Chronicles it is a separate force. Galakrond created the undead without any Legion influence, Krasus raised the undead because he is a red dragon, Deathwing's servants resurrected Nefarian and Onyxia

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by KainneAbsolute View Post
    Maybe the constellars are the true citizens of the order plane.
    Titans may be Constellars aswell, or at least related to them. World-souls are constellations; we see this when fighting Aggramar - you can see Argus pre-emergence in the center of the crater/pit we are in.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Death has never been associated only with the Burning Legion. Before the Chronicles, necromancy was a school of arcane magic, starting from the Chronicles it is a separate force. Galakrond created the undead without any Legion influence, Krasus raised the undead because he is a red dragon, Deathwing's servants resurrected Nefarian and Onyxia
    Necromancy used to be a part of arcane back when arcane was a much more direct riff on the D&D spell schools. Your latter points tie into what I'm getting at. The line between fel and arcane was much more blurred and more one of degrees, not type like it is after Chronicle. Hence Krasus and Deathwing could use necromancy and this wasn't an issue. Galakrond's move set is never actually explained even in current lore from what I know, though I suspect they'll touch on it in Dragonflight. Even post-Chronicle, post-Shadowlands we've got some non-death necromancy going around like Calia and fringe cases like void necromancy, which doesn't actually raise the spirit.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2022-05-01 at 10:35 AM.
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