1. #1

    Why did the Lich King never taken over mids of the Forsaken and the DK?

    For example, why didn't Arthas just subdue Sylvanas when she was running from him? I used to think that in order to subdue them again, he must kill them again and resurrect them. But in the story about DK and Bolvar, it turned out that Bolvar can easily subdue any DK at any time without any effort. And Bolvar is weaker than Arthas.

  2. #2
    Supposedly because Illidans attack on the Frozen Throne weakened Ner'zhul (and thereby Arthas too). Bolvars statement about taking control over the Ebon Blade could also be a lie, a threat to get them in line.

  3. #3
    unless there's a "story' about DK and Bolvar I'm missing, didn't the EbonBlade basically allow Bolvar to take bake control over them, throughout the Legion story? All 4 Horsemen I believe were raised with his help, even Mograine i think was re-resurrected and they now making up the leadership of the Death Knights.

    They legit let their guard down around him and he took over, where as with Arthas, it was outright hostilities the whole time. The DKs also only went against Arthas the moment the realized their lives were being thrown away, not that he was some evil overlord killing the living, so it also makes sense that they'd have no problem being underlings again to another Lich King as long as he never uses them as sacrifices.

    if there's ever a case of like Bolvar taking over a DK as an "avatar", I'd say it's because that DK is weak willed, or it's because they're using his power or on his Necro-network kinda thing.

  4. #4
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    At the time the Forsaken and Sylvanas broke away the Lich King was weakened along with Arthas, at that time they could basically break away and I guess by the time the new Lich King came around he probably intended to bring the rest back in but was sleeping until Wrath).

    I assume Bolvar could of done it and not lie. I think he was just trying to not use those dark powers, he already had to deal with Zovaal trying to influence him.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    unless there's a "story' about DK and Bolvar I'm missing, didn't the EbonBlade basically allow Bolvar to take bake control over them, throughout the Legion story? All 4 Horsemen I believe were raised with his help, even Mograine i think was re-resurrected and they now making up the leadership of the Death Knights.

    They legit let their guard down around him and he took over, where as with Arthas, it was outright hostilities the whole time. The DKs also only went against Arthas the moment the realized their lives were being thrown away, not that he was some evil overlord killing the living, so it also makes sense that they'd have no problem being underlings again to another Lich King as long as he never uses them as sacrifices.

    if there's ever a case of like Bolvar taking over a DK as an "avatar", I'd say it's because that DK is weak willed, or it's because they're using his power or on his Necro-network kinda thing.
    When you go to retrieve the fragments of Frostmourne from ICC, Bolvar threatens that if you, the newly appointed Death Knight leader fails, he'll take over Archerus and deem you too weak to serve. Nothing ever comes from this and between him and Mograine, you raise new Horsemen, the last one meant to be Tirion. This fails, however, and Mograine sacrifices himself to save the other assaulting DKs. You take his corpse back to Archerus and raise him anew, to be the leader of the Four Horsemen. After that, they dropped the sinister Bolvar act for whatever reason and we've all seen what we got in Shadowlands.

    As others have mentioned, the Forsaken and the Ebon Blade broke off from Arthas' control, the former from sheer will after Arthas/Nerzhul's weakened state, the latter from getting slapped in the face with reality.
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  6. #6
    Wow, you guys really have no idea what I'm talking about, do you?

    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/st.../we-ride-forth

    When Darion decides to fight Bolvar, Bolvar instantly takes control of him and sends him back. And the other Riders know that he can do the same to any of them.

  7. #7
    as far as I remember:
    1. Illidan attacked Frozen Throne with Eye Of Sargeras. while his attempt failed, he managed to damage Lich King's Icy Block, and it started losing power somehow
    2. Arthas began weakening, and Lich King's control over Undead began to weaken as well
    3. this is explained by Dreadlords to Sylvanas, when she is confused, why she got her free will back and why does not she hear Ner'Zhul's voice anymore
    4. Arthas later regained some of his powers back to fight Illidan, when Ner'Zhul used his remaining powers to boost him
    5. when Arthas destroyed icy prison and his and Ner'Zhul's spirit merged, he went dormant for 4-5 years.
    6. it seems, that
    a. Arthas the Lich King is bit weaker than Ner'Zhul in prison
    b. Forsaken managed to practice free will "will of the forsaken" and learned how to resist his call

    7. from example of Nathanos, we know that he was mindless scourge, like simple ghouls and zombies, yet Sylvanas managed to break him from LK control, and now he is independent as well
    8. Cataclysm made forsaken free will a bit confusing
    on one hand, we see that newly resurrected forsaken can WILLINGLY become forsaken, or go against forsaken.
    on other hand, there were some hints, that Sylvanas is dominating will of newly raised forsaken (tbh can not remember exact source)
    9. Bolvar the Lich King does not seem to be weaker than Arthas the Lich King, he has even stronger will, to resist some stuff
    it is unknown if he has power to dominate again those Forsaken/DKs who have retained free will, because he never tried it. only dominates those standard scourge/zombies

    10. Lich King's domination power does not seem to be infinite
    we know that Arthas somehow kept scourge in check (with all shit going in Lordaeron and Northrend, what is "kept in line" I can not understand)
    we know that Bolvar is keeping scourge in check, yet there are pockets of undead/cultis/nerubians, etc, who gained some sort of independence and became local warlords
    (examples: Scholomance and Andorhal scourge in Cataclysm, crypt lord in EPL, undead nerubians in Island expeditions and so on)

    11. in short story "we ride forth"
    we see that Bolvar can dominate Darion's will for some time and than releases him, and he and other horsemen are afraid that LK can dominate them as well

    so maybe LK can dominate certain individuals or groups, but can not do it forever because it requires some concentration, or more power and he has some limit how much he can dominate

    it is never clearly explained in game or in books
    Last edited by masterjc; 2022-05-01 at 03:17 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Wow, you guys really have no idea what I'm talking about, do you?

    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/st.../we-ride-forth

    When Darion decides to fight Bolvar, Bolvar instantly takes control of him and sends him back. And the other Riders know that he can do the same to any of them.
    Bolvar raised Darion through the PC in the Legion Order Hall story. Much like the other Horsemen were raised through the PC as Bolvar's proxy. One of the first things he does is mark you as his champion and his conduit and explicitly the enforcer of his will. Killing Darion again, i.e by sending him on a suicide mission, and then raising him again is exactly what he does. There's no contradiction.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2022-05-01 at 03:20 PM.
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  9. #9
    Why did the LK never reassert control over the Forsaken? Shh, stop pointing out the plot holes!

    It could also be argued/joked that he knew they were merrily carrying on the Scourge's work with the Blight, so let them do their thing.
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  10. #10
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    Anyone remember that Legion quest for DKs that allowed you to kill all the red Dragons from an achievement with Bolvars blessing before it was removed from the game?

    I'm so glad I was able to do it. Was so enjoyable still don't understand why it was removed and those who earned the achievement removed as well.

  11. #11
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Bolvar raised Darion through the PC in the Legion Order Hall story. Much like the other Horsemen were raised through the PC as Bolvar's proxy. One of the first things he does is mark you as his champion and his conduit and explicitly the enforcer of his will. Killing Darion again, i.e by sending him on a suicide mission, and then raising him again is exactly what he does. There's no contradiction.
    The problem is that we don't know if this is because the Lich King is re-asserting dominance over the Four Horsemen, or if he never gave up his dominance. The former seems more likely, as we know Scourge like Anub'arak were able to act with a degree of free will, but were aware of how their actions were being subverted by Ner'zhul's influence (and was unhappy about it in Road to Damnation). If he was maintaining some degree of influence over them, the precedents we have set appear to indicate that they would be aware to some extent (with the effects of Domination magic in Shadowlands appearing to corroborate this).

    Quote Originally Posted by Road to Damnation
    Kel’Thuzad hid his distaste. He wouldn’t give the enormous majordomo the satisfaction. Indicating one of the undead spider-things, he said, “You bear them some resemblance. Are you all derived from the same race?”

    “The nerubian race, yes. Then the master came. As his influence spread, we made war upon him, foolishly believing we stood a chance. Many of us were slain and raised into undeath. In life I was a king. Today I am a crypt lord.”

    “In return for immortality, you agreed to serve him,” Kel’Thuzad mused aloud. Remarkable.

    “‘Agreed’ implies choice.”
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    The problem is that we don't know if this is because the Lich King is re-asserting dominance over the Four Horsemen, or if he never gave up his dominance. The former seems more likely, as we know Scourge like Anub'arak were able to act with a degree of free will, but were aware of how their actions were being subverted by Ner'zhul's influence (and was unhappy about it in Road to Damnation). If he was maintaining some degree of influence over them, the precedents we have set appear to indicate that they would be aware to some extent (with the effects of Domination magic in Shadowlands appearing to corroborate this).
    For the Horsemen it's not really relevant. All of them were raised by the PC while he was a conduit for Bolvar and we know from We Ride Forth that they always had 'The Presence', i.e Bolvar's psychic influence on their minds. Bolvar kept it in the background and let them act however they like, but could also intensify it. Anub'arak and Sylvanas are similarly given some degree of latitude but know they're being controlled. Lesser undead, in the few times we get their perspective don't get that luxury. 4. eg. Nathanos is in a state of delirium and his mind is wrecked after he's cut loose, the Forsaken's minds are harmed and will eventually go mindless etc. So the idea of a background influence that can take over at will when it comes to prominent undead checks out the most.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2022-05-04 at 06:01 AM.
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  13. #13
    Although undeath was not something any Forsaken actually chose (as any willing undead would likely be with the Scourge), it brought new capabilities and immunities; [Will of the Forsaken] reflects the sheer mental will to resist the Lich King's will that every Forsaken innately possesses from the day of their dark rebirth."

    That's why.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoSe7eN View Post
    Anyone remember that Legion quest for DKs that allowed you to kill all the red Dragons from an achievement with Bolvars blessing before it was removed from the game?

    I'm so glad I was able to do it. Was so enjoyable still don't understand why it was removed and those who earned the achievement removed as well.
    Because they said it wasn't intended to go live that way. It is still canon that the last red dragon whelps where killed by the leader of the order hall.

  15. #15
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    For the Horsemen it's not really relevant. All of them were raised by the PC while he was a conduit for Bolvar and we know from We Ride Forth that they always had 'The Presence', i.e Bolvar's psychic influence on their minds. Bolvar kept it in the background and let them act however they like, but could also intensify it. Anub'arak and Sylvanas are similarly given some degree of latitude but know they're being controlled. Lesser undead, in the few times we get their perspective don't get that luxury. 4. eg. Nathanos is in a state of delirium and his mind is wrecked after he's cut loose, the Forsaken's minds are harmed and will eventually go mindless etc. So the idea of a background influence that can take over at will when it comes to prominent undead checks out the most.
    The problem is that the situation with the Four Horsemen is novel and not seen anywhere else. In all known cases of Domination magic being used to influence someone, at least in respect to the Lich King and Scourge, the target of the magic appears to be aware of the influence in some way (i.e.: Sylvanas hearing whispers, feeling the always persistent presence of the Lich King, etc.), and this appears to be consistent with all instances of former Scourge who talk about their experience. In this case, the Presence in their mind is intermittent, referred to as being there, but only being able to feel it when Bolvar is communicating with them, which is distinct from the case of Sylvanas and other intelligent Scourge. What's more is that we already know that the Lich King is a powerful psychic entity, and the ability to convey thoughts was something that Ner'zhul was known to have used to help form the fledgling Scourge, luring in and converting the inhabitants of Northrend to his cause. These powers were also used to communicate with Kel'thuzad to lure him to Northrend, who was not subject to any form of control. Given we know that the Lich King is capable of forming these kinds of psychic connections with beings not under his direct control, and was able to use the powers to gain control of them, the fact that Bolvar could "speak" to the PC and the Four Horsemen is therefore not in itself indicative of persistent control (in the same way as known Scourge) and may actually imply the ability to exert influence over undead he isn't directly controlling.

    That's not to say that it's impossible that Bolvar was using Domination magic (i.e.: Helm of Domination) to keep hold of them and "turned up the dial" to override their consciousness, just that we don't have a precedent for this yet and the short story doesn't give a lot of detailed explanation on what it means by Presence, other than to say that it's there sometimes.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    For example, why didn't Arthas just subdue Sylvanas when she was running from him? I used to think that in order to subdue them again, he must kill them again and resurrect them. But in the story about DK and Bolvar, it turned out that Bolvar can easily subdue any DK at any time without any effort. And Bolvar is weaker than Arthas.
    The Lich King's powers were not solely over the dead, originally.
    One of the reasons he almost lost the war to Azjol-Nerub was that they were immune to his psychic influence - while they were still alive.
    So your question should be broader: Why did the Lich King not use his psychic powers more?

    The reason might lie in the unexplained relevance of the conflict between Yogg-Saron and the Lich King; the Nerubians owed their resistance to his influence as their progenitor.
    And while Yogg-Saron had been working to free himself for a long time before the Scourge was even a thing, his actions took on a more active nature after the fall of Azjol-Nerub; during Arthas' flight from Lordaeron he encounters the first of the faceless, making their way to the surface, led by one of the forgotten (or even a manifestation of Yogg-Saron himself).

    Then during WotLK the Alliance and Horde arrive in Northrend to see the various titanforged and such rallying to Ulduar in preparation for some event, which all turns out to be masterminded by Yogg-Saron.

    Additionally we see by then that Saronite has invaded every corner of the continent, and that though the scourge are actively mining it and using it to seemingly little detriment, it may now be argued that one of the reasons that it was used was to stifle the Jailer's influences - domination magic is not so different from the nature of the psychic influence of the void, and arguably the void is much more experienced and skilled in its use, it's their "home turf" so to speak.

    So i think that the reason the Lich King's controlling powers seem to have waned over time is due to the spread of saronite, and its absence in the shadowlands.
    As for the cases of him reasserting his control over the death knights: By then the death knights had willingly reinforced their connections during the events of Legion, and the Lich King has never had trouble controlling those still under his thrall, or in his direct vicinity (perhaps this means that canonically the death knight(s) and forsaken facing Arthas as the lich king were all clad in saronite, or wielding Shadowmourne.
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  17. #17
    Over 9000! Lahis's Avatar
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    It is futile to look for any consistency in WoW story. The writers will do whatever thw fuck they want with no regards to past lore.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    The problem is that the situation with the Four Horsemen is novel and not seen anywhere else. In all known cases of Domination magic being used to influence someone, at least in respect to the Lich King and Scourge, the target of the magic appears to be aware of the influence in some way (i.e.: Sylvanas hearing whispers, feeling the always persistent presence of the Lich King, etc.), and this appears to be consistent with all instances of former Scourge who talk about their experience. In this case, the Presence in their mind is intermittent, referred to as being there, but only being able to feel it when Bolvar is communicating with them, which is distinct from the case of Sylvanas and other intelligent Scourge. What's more is that we already know that the Lich King is a powerful psychic entity, and the ability to convey thoughts was something that Ner'zhul was known to have used to help form the fledgling Scourge, luring in and converting the inhabitants of Northrend to his cause. These powers were also used to communicate with Kel'thuzad to lure him to Northrend, who was not subject to any form of control. Given we know that the Lich King is capable of forming these kinds of psychic connections with beings not under his direct control, and was able to use the powers to gain control of them, the fact that Bolvar could "speak" to the PC and the Four Horsemen is therefore not in itself indicative of persistent control (in the same way as known Scourge) and may actually imply the ability to exert influence over undead he isn't directly controlling.

    That's not to say that it's impossible that Bolvar was using Domination magic (i.e.: Helm of Domination) to keep hold of them and "turned up the dial" to override their consciousness, just that we don't have a precedent for this yet and the short story doesn't give a lot of detailed explanation on what it means by Presence, other than to say that it's there sometimes.
    Your premise for We Ride Forth's form of control being something different is in general is wrong because it and Anub'arak/Sylvanas's cases are explained analogously. It's not that Bolvar was only there intermittently, i.e that there were times where there was no presence at all. It's always there, just in varying intensities. Darion describes it as being a constant undercurrent but one that spikes in intensity when Bolvar's exerting more influence. It's only when the Helm is destroyed that the Presence in general is gone:

    Quote Originally Posted by We Ride Forth, p. 4
    And then he stopped, his mouth still working soundlessly. The Presence in his head was changing. It wasn’t painful this time. Not really. Mograine had never felt anything like it, ever. Not even when Arthas fell.

    If the Presence was a conduit of control and power, it felt like the conduit was crumbling. Being split apart. Mograine didn’t understand. But it felt . . . liberating. Like his mind had been bound, and the chains were slipping away, one by one. Like he hadn’t even been aware of how firmly he had been held under its control.
    Past that, Bolvar does have psychic powers, as did Ner'zhul and Arthas and they grow depending on how many are in his sway, per Chronicle. He used those to lure Kel'thuzad. But his reaching out to Kel'thuzad, who's still alive, isn't the same as his control of the minions he's raised and has under sway.

    Mind, if we really want to dig ourselves deep Sylvanas did gain telepathy in Cataclysm which as far as I know she didn't use at any point before then, plus her powers then being on loan from the Jailer much like the Helm is currently, with both being sources source of domination magic. So you could make the argument that forming psychic connections to the sympathetic, like KT for the Lich King and those he initially lured in when he was first making the Scourge or the Forsaken/the PC with Sylvanas is also a form of domination. In any case, their situation and that of controlled undead'd be different.

    @loras touched on the telepathy thing in a lot more detail and I like the idea of the Nerubians being resistant to foreign psychic powers on account of being old god creations. The Lich King and associates's psychic powers are fairly vague, but at least his control over the undead is fairly consistent.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2022-05-04 at 08:41 AM.
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  19. #19
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Your premise for We Ride Forth's form of control being something different is in general is wrong because it and Anub'arak/Sylvanas's cases are explained analogously. It's not that Bolvar was only there intermittently, i.e that there were times where there was no presence at all. It's always there, just in varying intensities. Darion describes it as being a constant undercurrent but one that spikes in intensity when Bolvar's exerting more influence. It's only when the Helm is destroyed that the Presence in general is gone:
    I'm not that adverse to the idea that he maintained the presence within them the whole time, and can understand that reading. It would be nice if we had more details regarding the relation between the Four Horsemen and the Lich King, as it's not really described as being the same subversive influence as other cases, with the Presence being described as mostly conveying non-compulsive thoughts but also allowing direct control in one case (i.e.: taking control of Mograine and him having a time gap between being in Icecrown and being back in Acherus). That said, it's entirely possible that the connection between Bolvar and them is the same (or similar) as what the Lich King had with the undead under his control, perhaps like what Kel'thuzad had, who was given a unique form of full autonomy within the Scourge while maintaining a connection, although we don't quite know how loyal undead felt the Lich King's presence in their minds (and perhaps should infer that the Four Horsemen are meant to be that analog).

    Past that, Bolvar does have psychic powers, as did Ner'zhul and Arthas and they grow depending on how many are in his sway, per Chronicle. He used those to lure Kel'thuzad. But his reaching out to Kel'thuzad, who's still alive, isn't the same as his control of the minions he's raised and has under sway.

    Mind, if we really want to dig ourselves deep Sylvanas did gain telepathy in Cataclysm which as far as I know she didn't use at any point before then, plus her powers then being on loan from the Jailer much like the Helm is currently, with both being sources source of domination magic. So you could make the argument that forming psychic connections to the sympathetic, like KT for the Lich King and those he initially lured in when he was first making the Scourge or the Forsaken/the PC with Sylvanas is also a form of domination. In any case, their situation and that of controlled undead'd be different.
    It's different, but was used to gain control over the living within proximity to the Frozen Throne (i.e.: prior to the War of the Spider, it was used to gain control over the denizens of Northrend). That is to say that he could use it to remotely influence people without being in direct control prior, although we've never seen this occur in-game (it's only been stated he could, not shown).

    @loras touched on the telepathy thing in a lot more detail and I like the idea of the Nerubians being resistant to foreign psychic powers on account of being old god creations. The Lich King and associates's psychic powers are fairly vague, but at least his control over the undead is fairly consistent.
    It's possible that the Nerubians were resistant to psychic powers, but the primary reason for the war was their apparent immunity to the Plague of Undeath. Given their immunity to the plague, the idea that they had other physical (or psychological) abnormalities isn't that far fetched. Alternatively, it could be a natural adaptation due to them living underground and their proximity to Saronite, which we know had detrimental psychological effects on the living (i.e.: they may have evolved over time so that those who were resistant to psychic influence were the groups which prospered due to being mentally stable).
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