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  1. #61
    Dreadlord Sagenod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    The cold reality is that steampunk/gnometech/goblintech themes are just have much narrower appeal than beauty of nature/dragons-type themes. Far fewer players are going to get excited about an expansion themed around tech than they are about one themed around more straightforward fantasy. People can call it "bland" or whatever, but they're blind to the reality that this sort of slightly-generic fantasy is popular in part because it's slightly-generic. It's why in Dungeons and Dragons, the most popular settings are all slightly-generic and bland ones, rather than more specific ones. The Forgotten Realms, Exandria, Eberron, they're all between bland and specific, but leaning towards bland. That's what lasts, that's what succeeds - stuff that's more specific - Dark Sun, Planescape, Spelljammer, that might be successful for a short while occasionally, but then it fades again, and doesn't come back for decades. Whilst boring old Forgotten Realms just keeps going from the 1980s to now. WoW is far more towards the FR side of things. We just had an expansion which tried "risky" aesthetics and it did not full pay off (though I thought it looked pretty cool tbh - too much goddamn time in the Maw though - a zone which managed to combine "boring" and "ugly" extremely effectively).

    I think the only way you get a tech-themed expansion going is to go "full magitech", which means not really steampunk as WoW has tended to be when tech-centric, but something probably more elegant and flashy, and with less exploding/sparking/pumping steam/smoke, and more glowing and looking impressive. More Exodar, less Gnomeregan. You could still have your dreadful tinkers as the class introduced, of course.

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    Part of the problem is Blizzard seem to have been primarily inspired by two sources when it comes to tech in WoW:

    1) Warner Bros cartoons, particularly Looney Tunes, and generally that whole era of animations, which means gnome/goblin tech always looks like a joke, and always evokes Wile. E. Coyote.

    2) Tinker Gnomes in Dragonlance. Whose entire concept is "they build wild devices but they usually go horribly wrong" - you see this repeated over and over and over with WoW's gnomes. It's a really lazy trope but ties in well with the WB aesthetic.

    And yeah, it's not aesthetically pleasing. Blizzard often has aesthetically pleasing tech in the game - whether it's the Exodar/Draenei tech, Titan tech or whatever, but for some reason that's always backgrounded and not really seen as "tech" (even though it clearly is), where gnome/goblin stuff is frequently foregrounded.

    I think if they did a techy expansion they'd absolutely have to go with an attractive kind of tech as the "main" tech rather than just continuing with gnome/goblin stuff. the BfA Mechagnome area did kind of show what more-competent gnome tech might look like, with less broken/dodgy robots and more complete/functional ones, but I doubt they could extend that aesthetic sufficiently.
    Why not both? I think for what you're talking about, a newly introduced Titan-facility that's been turned into a techno-civilization of sorts ran by its servants post Curse of Flesh would be interesting. Hidden in the sky and magitech all the way baybay. Mechagon could return to give us the dirty steampunk vibes that some people want, whereas the new Undermine will bring a neon lights and criminal scum vibe. There's a lot of directions they could go with it just like anything else. Old lore can be built upon, new lore can be introduced. I mean, it's more weird to me how many people have this view of it being too narrow a topic. Technology is involved in every facet of existence in the WoW universe... Like every. Single. Thing. All the way down, yeah? Look at all this First One tech. It's definitely not all rusty gears, steam power and pistons.
    Last edited by Sagenod; 2022-05-03 at 12:32 PM.

  2. #62
    can someone explain the endgame of the tinker zealots and their incessant spam? do they try to make blizzard to halfass implement their wet dream just to shut them up eventually?

  3. #63
    Dreadlord Sagenod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Anything could work...
    Thank you lol. I understand those who don't agree because they simply wouldn't like it, but the people here saying it wouldn't work because technology is a narrow concept are all lacking creativity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enter Name Here View Post
    can someone explain the endgame of the tinker zealots and their incessant spam? do they try to make blizzard to halfass implement their wet dream just to shut them up eventually?
    All the best endgame builds are centered around keeping your trash takes to yourself and not posting replies like this on my thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alduin View Post
    No clue what you are talking about because:
    - Mimiron in Ulduar is one of the highly regarded fights and tech themed
    - One of the best features in BfA was Mechagon, Mechagnomes and the associated tech zone
    - Undermine (as gobline tech), the goblin starting area and the new Aszhara hub have a unique design
    - The Iron Horde theme carried over into the Orgrimmar raid
    - The tech zone in the other side works too
    - Even the ethereals (TBC and now Tazavesh) work quite nicely.
    - Engineering is one of the most fun professions since Vanilla with debatable gadgets.
    - Siege Weapons and Dwarf tanks are one of the core techs since Warcraft.

    And there is still a lot about the Titan technologies we have yet to understand (with Zereth Mortis and co we got a glimpse in the design of the reality). As well as steampunk/cyberpunk theme offering a unique design choice.

    Also tech offers quite some references as being the driving factor of the 2020s. Pop culture references to Cyberpunk/Horizon are amass.

    The only downside would have been a new race - but you could simply explore the current Mechagnomes/Dwarfs and Makghar/Goblin cultures a bit more. We have not seen much about Goblins yet....

    Not quite sure why Alexstrasza waifu should be a better option than tech...
    Yes. You've said it in a way I couldn't.

    The race issue for me personally isn't so hard. A tech expansion could be a great time to bring back the Consortium and Protectorate and add playable Ethereals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Out of interest, did they ever do any april fools jokes about "classic"?
    Not sure, but I know they did Pandaren.

  4. #64
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Always a chance for it in the future, but right now I'm just hoping DF will be decent

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The good news is that while the Tinker didn’t arrive in 10.0, they have a high chance of showing up in a future expansion.
    This is some serious copium. Tinkers have been "coming soon" for years. I recall some conversations even here on this site, as well as the official forums as far back as Wrath.

    It's not to say they can't or won't ever come but this notion or belief they're high on the agenda is just completely false, so much so they've had opportunities in the past to implement them and chose not too.

    Even within the community their inclusion isn't as welcome as some make them out to be.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sagenod View Post
    Why not both? I think for what you're talking about, a newly introduced Titan-facility that's been turned into a techno-civilization of sorts ran by its servants post Curse of Flesh would be interesting. Hidden in the sky and magitech all the way baybay. Mechagon could return to give us the dirty steampunk vibes that some people want, whereas the new Undermine will bring a neon lights and criminal scum vibe. There's a lot of directions they could go with it just like anything else. Old lore can be built upon, new lore can be introduced. I mean, it's more weird to me how many people have this view of it being too narrow a topic. Technology is involved in every facet of existence in the WoW universe... Like every. Single. Thing. All the way down, yeah? Look at all this First One tech. It's definitely not all rusty gears, steam power and pistons.
    Yet you're seemingly advocating for 66% of the expansion to be "rusty gears, steam power and pistons", because that's what Mechagon and Undermine will be, just one with a "gnomes and bronze/brass" vibe, and one with a "goblins and neon/rockets" vibe.

    My point is, if you want a tech expansion that works for the greater WoW audience, if you want one that most people are going to want to actually play, that they're not going to be actively turned off by, you have to minimize the amount of gnome and goblin tech, and also ensure there are a lot of zones where tech isn't everywhere. That doesn't mean zero, but it means a limited amount. Certainly not areas where players have to hang out every single day. You'd want the central hub/town area to be Titan tech or the like, and the tech people interacted with to be the same. The reason stuff like Dragonflight is the way it is, is because slightly-generic fantasy has a broad appeal. Especially to people living in cities, who don't have access to real green spaces on a regular basis - they last thing they want, in most cases, is to have WoW, an escape, also be about hanging out every day in something that looks like a lo-fi mash-up of Wile E Coyote and Cyberpunk 2077 (as Undermine would likely be).

    Technology has always been on the edges in Warcraft and WoW, present largely in the form of vehicles and guns. It's not as ever-present as you suggest, and another reason Blizzard may be leery of making an entire expansion around it is that they probably don't want to push too much further into the techno-fantasy realm, especially as FFXIV has it locked down (but notably avoids much "dirty" steampunk in favour of clean magitech, whereas WoW has tons of it).
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  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Sagenod View Post
    [...]
    All the best endgame builds are centered around keeping your trash takes to yourself and not posting replies like this on my thread.
    [...]
    how dare i express my opinion in a public forum

    how would the "best endgame build" answer my question? i fear you did not understand my question

  8. #68
    Personally, I'd fucking love an outer-space/heavy sci-fi themed expansion even if it doesn't fit with the "traditional" WoW expansion tropes. This idea, however, just seems like a roundabout way of saying "give me Tinkers"... something which isn't likely to happen for another three or four expansions at the minimum.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    they'll bring in what the people want. Tinker fans aren't getting any quieter before each new expac announcement. It'll die down for the next 2 years then rear up again.
    If anything i think they would be more inclined to explore the possibility of a bard, as a true support class, before trying to make engineering profession the class. Because that at least has some unique things they could explore. We already have mechanical pets of both the combat and non-combat variety, we already have guns, we already have power armor, we already have alchemy too.

    If anything i'd expect goblin/gnome druid forms to be sort of vehicles, whilst keeping what Hunters already can do.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Sagenod View Post
    The theme of MOP was not initially Old God related and it was indirectly related to the Old Gods at the best, since the Sha were manifestations of Y'shaarj's heart, not parts or forces of the Old God himself.
    Y'shaarj is literally an Old God, so yes, it was directly related to the Old Gods.

    Faction War very much was the initial theme of BFA however why would you even try to argue that? Regardless of how the war turned out, it started with faction war and turned into Old Gods.
    I'm talking about the theme of the expansion, not the theme of the first X.0 content.

    Both of those expansions and how they started off narratively were not directly related to the final villain. Think about it chronologically, not retrospectively.
    "Think about the entire expansion, not just the first X.0 content."

    Trade Prince Gallywix and/or the other Trade Princes use stockpiled Azerite to power a crazy Goblin tech military out of Undermine. Brokers and Ethereals join him and together they become a multi-dimensional threat beginning an invasion on the core of Azeroth where they hope to unlock more Zereths, or something. Gallywix is the big bad, he ends up making a Gurren Laggan sized mech using technology influenced by the Devourers and, having gone insane, attempts to bust open the entire cosmic war by opening up ALL the Zereths. Obviously half-baked but the point is there is a lot of content to work with so I think anyone with half a brain could do even better.
    Sooooo many issues with that:
    • Why would the Ethereals and Brokers (that do not exist on Azeroth) not only suddenly show up on Azeroth, but immediately join with the goblins?
    • Why would the Undermine, a trade union, suddenly be interested in taking over the world?
    • Why would the goblins be interested in "unlocking more Zereths" which has nothing to do with the core of Azeroth?
    • Why would Gallywix be the "big bad" since the Ethereals and Brokers are much more powerful groups?
    • Why do you think "going back to Cosmic War" is a good idea in an expansion that's supposed to be a return to Azeroth?

    Ah, so I suppose you wanted to emphasize how condescending you were being in your reply?
    I simply wanted to emphasize how the mention of a certain 'tech class' makes it apparent that the reason you made that-- in your own words-- "half-baked idea" was to give a reason to add a 'tech class'.

    Instead, it's about telling people they're wrong.
    I question the validity of ideas, and if they're wrong, yes I'll point out how they're wrong.

  11. #71
    No thanks, I'd rather have a fantasy setting with dragons than a sci-fi setting again (looking at you legion with all your spaceships).

    Also, by now, the tinker crowd should know that their glorified PROFESSION will never be its standalone class.

  12. #72
    Ha! Imagine arclight rumble featuring Tinkers along side hero’s such as Jaina and Grom… with no relatable/equivalent player experience in the World of Warcraft. Feels bad man.

  13. #73
    To be honest, Undermine is the best setup for the "Dug too deep and awakened an ancient horror" trope. But Old Gods have been used so much throughout WoW that it's absolutely underwhelming if they ever do it now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
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  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    You don't understand what I'm talking about when I say "*I* don't want this"?
    No clue what of my statement made you think I won't understand your opinion. I simply stated the fact that "Tech themed instances and zones in WoW so far have been an absolute horrible sight." is not comprehensible in regards to a multitude of examples of highly regarded tech content. No clue who you talked about the Mechagon Island being in the lower parts of BfA - only thing better was Karazhan, but else BfA was kinda lackluster. Especially if you look at the wasted potential e.g. undead troll pirates in Voldun or Tel'abim story arc.

    Factual the tech theme carries a lot better than some dragon stuff which tbh is dead since the Aspects lost their immortality in Cataclysm. The dragon expansion would have been surely great around Cataclysm or even after MoP. But since then the interference of Dragons with our world is ... neglectable. In Shadowlands we had Ysera / her successor, in Legion we had one storyline around Kalecgos during the first raid tier. In WoD we had Gruul (old Dragonslayer) without any dragons anywhere to be seen. Dragon content has been neglected a long time (aka there is no build up to the expansion). Meanwhile we have explored a lot (!) about Titan tech, Ethereals, Brokers and Co. with open lore threads to follow up on. I would rather see a greedy Gallywax trying to own the power to create worlds and various richies or Millhouse trying to limb into the power of reality than riding a dragon (which I do since TBC).

    Hopefully they will explore the alternative dragon flights like Infite, Chromatic and even Twilight a bit more like promised. No clue what Blizzard will do, we will see about that. But imho the expansion is out of place in terms of time, options, lore and pop reference culture. Those things were great for dragons back in 2010 maybe. And with the option of cross-faction well what will happen if Gnomes and Goblins join their tech...

    But if you want to keep subscribers and regain old ones - well I am not sure if Dragons is the theme to go with. Atleast not what I heard from many gamers who "pass" on DF after 2 lets say at best mediocre expansions.

    And no - I really don't care about Tinkers.

    And yes - we definitely need more RPG/Fantasy vibes than cosmopolitical, titanical etc. etc. after an expansion where we beat Death itself.
    Last edited by Alduin; 2022-05-03 at 06:07 PM.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Sagenod View Post
    Dragonflight's goal is "a return to Azeroth," bringing more grounded themes and getting us away from the endless existential nightmares. I think a tech-themed expansion could serve the purpose just as well as Dragonflight. This also has the potential to introduce some sort of Tinker (engineer, machinist) class to the game, which I believe a better fit for the ranged only, mail-wearing class design intention. Also, the Undermine and possible underworld of Azeroth, in both a metaphorical and literal sense. Criminals and caves, technologies and trade, Titan facilities, Old Gods, Azerite, Nerubians, Drog'bar, the Black Dragonflight for all you dragon nerds, Earth elementals and let's not forget: Goblins and Gnomes and all the zaniness those two races bring with them.

    Anyone with me here?
    I am rather opposed to an overabundance of tech in warcraft.
    Sure, some places are nice for a change of pace, but for the love of Ragnaros keep that sci-fi shite confined to things like warhammer.
    Kezan is nice for a dungeon and a starting zone, idem for mechagon or parts of ulduar, but for the rest it is a lot better to keep things "down to earth" in the fantasy sense; don't pretend that it makes sense, most "serious" sci-fi doesn't, pretending otherwise only harms the suspension of disbelief.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

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  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Alduin View Post
    No clue what of my statement made you think I won't understand your opinion.
    Are you serious?

    After I literally just said that "I don't like it" (and pretty much nothing else) you said

    No clue what you are talking about because
    ?

    and when I said that I consider mechagon the biggest pile of dung ever (again, this is my opinion)
    No clue who you talked about the Mechagon Island being in the lower parts of BfA

    ....

    Could you please not bother replying anymore? Tyvm.
    In case you don't realise it yourself btw. You are just stating opinions as well. Nothing is "objectively better" in Mechagon.
    Either you like it or not. It's not really a special place.
    There is nothing "factual" about this. No matter how hard you want to believe that
    So comments like these
    Factual the tech theme carries a lot better than some dragon stuff which tbh is dead since the Aspects lost their immortality in Cataclysm.
    are really not worth a damn.
    Whatever you imagine your "tech themed expansion" to be is only what you, personaly, aren't able to see working in the "dragon themed expansion". It's biased, nothing else.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-05-03 at 06:43 PM.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Sagenod View Post
    This also has the potential to introduce some sort of Tinker (engineer, machinist) class to the game
    Good reason to not do it.

    Also, Mechagon was already enough technology for one expansion, and that was just a single area in a single patch.

  18. #78
    Steampunk is part of the DNA of Warcraft.

    Yes a technology expansion could work but I don't think it needs to be instead of Dragonflight....

  19. #79
    oh come on already. Let us atleast test out 10.0, rage about how it sucks for X/Y reasons, threats to quit and never play again, return, rage about the game again, threats of quitting, quits and finally subs for last patch cause now the hype is real for TINKERS IN 11.0!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    To be honest, Undermine is the best setup for the "Dug too deep and awakened an ancient horror" trope. But Old Gods have been used so much throughout WoW that it's absolutely underwhelming if they ever do it now.
    The ancient horror could be tinkers. That would really be horrific and hysterical cause then we never get them as a playable class but as our foes.

  20. #80
    The Unstoppable Force Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ResentfulUK View Post
    This is some serious copium. Tinkers have been "coming soon" for years. I recall some conversations even here on this site, as well as the official forums as far back as Wrath.

    It's not to say they can't or won't ever come but this notion or belief they're high on the agenda is just completely false, so much so they've had opportunities in the past to implement them and chose not too.

    Even within the community their inclusion isn't as welcome as some make them out to be.
    Unless you believe that 10.0 or 11.0 are the final expansions WoW will ever release, I'm not seeing how you think any of what I said is "copium". You may personally dislike the Tinker, but that doesn't alter the simple fact that it's one of the last remaining class archetypes not reflected in the class lineup. Not only does it have multiple lore characters utilizing its archetype and abilities, but it even has a lore location that has the same bonafides as the dragon isles.

    Also if the Dragonflight forum is anything to go by, we have a vocal contingent of players disliking that concept as well. However, the dragon class is still on the way.

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