1. #3561
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    Tell me you haven't bothered looking up historical voting trends for this age group without telling me you haven't bothered looking up historical trends for this age group.
    I know that historically young people don't vote or have ever voted. Which makes it more puzzling that democrats are pushing a strategy to cater to them???

    Go for the people that actually bother to vote they are the ones making change in this country not those that just protest in the streets

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    Also I find it extremely funny that a leftist from Britain is saying liberalism is an ineffective strategy when Labour had their worst years under Corbyn. But that doesn't belong in this thread

  2. #3562
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    As I said in another thread yesterday, this may be a case where there was already an ideological war for the future of the USA, and the Democrats lost. Completely. Before Biden ever took office.

    If Supreme Court justices are willing to be partisan rather than rule on the law itself, then the nation's already fatally wounded, it just hasn't bled out yet. The knife's still blocking the wound, but Roe v. Wade's annulment was the first shift at pulling the knife out. And Thomas was clear they're pulling it all the way, and targeting a whole host of other civil rights in the near future.

    If they're willing to do that, they're probably willing to hand-wave election fraud by Republicans. And if that's true, there's no path to victory for Democrats. You'll lose in 2022, because any blatant election fraud will get their case appealed up through the courts and the corrupted SCOTUS will rubber-stamp the frauds as legitimate, securing a Republican win. Republicans could stuff ballot boxes with more votes than there are voters, and SCOTUS can still do that. And if they do, then Republicans win every election moving forward. Maybe not all of them right off, maybe just cleaning up the purple and battleground States before aiming at Democratic strongholds, but that's about how quickly they take control, not whether they can.

    There's no way to remove these justices, no matter how obviously-dishonest their actions are; that takes impeachment, which you need to get through House and Senate, and see above; you're losing those elections forever now, and SCOTUS is guaranteeing that. We've now discovered it's also self interest, is all.

    From here, it's a short hop to hand-waving literal murders of anyone the Republicans see as "undesirable" or "traitors", and the inevitable spiral into the worst excesses of fascism, and there's no lawful path to stopping it.

    And all it takes is that these 5 SCOTUS judges actually are as partisan and corrupt as they appear to be, for taking out Roe v. Wade. If they'll do that, where will they stop? When you have no means to act against them?

    I also suspect the "leak" of the Roe v. Wade reversal was done by Republicans, so State governments could get their trigger laws set up in time. They're literally the only people who benefited from the leak. The decision was already made, and public outcry and Democratic condemnation was never gonna change it. The leak was a statement that the Republican Justices are on-board and it's full-steam-ahead.
    Man doooood, man. It's almost as if several of us said that the supreme court seat was more important than people getting angry over some emails.

    But you're right, as the courts are now packed with ideological conservative judges, nothing really seems off limits. There doesn't seem to be any recourse against the USA slowly sliding back into a theocracy. Anything the Dems do will either be overthrown by the court now, and I imagine the fuckwads are eyeing Brown vs Board and Plessy vs Ferguson next.

    Feels like we're in the worst timeline, where the USA might actually become the Republic of Gilead.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  3. #3563
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    Also I find it extremely funny that a leftist from Britain is saying liberalism is an ineffective strategy when Labour had their worst years under Corbyn. But that doesn't belong in this thread
    They're not wrong, however. And Trump and the current direction of the Republican Party are evidence of this.

    How could a far right party be evidence that neoliberalism is anemic? Well, that's very simple; because it's fundamentally based on the same set of political and economic assumptions as post-Thatcher/Reagan conservatism which is also proving itself to be anemic in the face of right wing populism. In the US, that's manifested as Trumpism; in the UK, it's manifested as Brexiteers.

    People on both sides are increasingly of the same opinion that the existing political paradigm of free market capitalism doesn't work. Where they differ is that the right wing thinks fascism is the solution (which it isn't, because capitalism and fascism are bedfellows).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Man doooood, man. It's almost as if several of us said that the supreme court seat was more important than people getting angry over some emails.

    But you're right, as the courts are now packed with ideological conservative judges, nothing really seems off limits. There doesn't seem to be any recourse against the USA slowly sliding back into a theocracy. Anything the Dems do will either be overthrown by the court now, and I imagine the fuckwads are eyeing Brown vs Board and Plessy vs Ferguson next.

    Feels like we're in the worst timeline, where the USA might actually become the Republic of Gilead.
    Doomerism is massively unhelpful, just fyi.

    It also doesn't account for the fact that unlike, say, the Weimar Republic or Soviet Russia or post-Imperial China the current crop of American fascists are not capable of delivering improvements to most people's material conditions because they fundamentally support the same forces that are causing a decline in most people's material conditions.

    American neo-fascism is dangerous, but it's also febrile and empty-headed.
    The Were/Was Army: "Nooo you can't just vaporize my entire armored division, we had such a manly recruitment ad!"
    The They/Them Army: "Omg integrated fire support?? Go off queen sksksks, JDAMs are such a gemini thing."

  4. #3564
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Doomerism is massively unhelpful, just fyi.

    It also doesn't account for the fact that unlike, say, the Weimar Republic or Soviet Russia or post-Imperial China the current crop of American fascists are not capable of delivering improvements to most people's material conditions because they fundamentally support the same forces that are causing a decline in most people's material conditions, which is how you get lasting authoritarian regimes.

    American neo-fascism is dangerous, but it's also febrile.
    Apparently necessary reminder that the Nazi Reich lasted just over a decade before failure.

    It doesn't have to last all that long to cause absolutely horrendous human rights atrocities.


  5. #3565
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Apparently necessary reminder that the Nazi Reich lasted just over a decade before failure.

    It doesn't have to last all that long to cause absolutely horrendous human rights atrocities.
    I look at it the same way as I look at the climate crisis.

    Insisting that fascism has already won and that there's nothing that can be done to halt its advance is the political analogue to the last stage of climate change denial. It's not helpful and ultimately just services malign interests.
    The Were/Was Army: "Nooo you can't just vaporize my entire armored division, we had such a manly recruitment ad!"
    The They/Them Army: "Omg integrated fire support?? Go off queen sksksks, JDAMs are such a gemini thing."

  6. #3566
    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    Which makes it more puzzling that democrats are pushing a strategy to cater to them???
    Yes, their whole "not make any recognizable progress on the issues younger voters care about" strategy is a definite pander...
    "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."
    -Louis Brandeis

  7. #3567
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    I look at it the same way as I look at the climate crisis.

    Insisting that fascism has already won and that there's nothing that can be done to halt its advance is the political analogue to the last stage of climate change denial. It's not helpful and ultimately just services malign interests.
    I mean ultimately you have to realize under the current system of government there's literally nothing you can do.

    Rural power rules the US, always will, always has been, always will be.

    I was thinking of applying for visas because this country is just headed down a Christian Nationalist place.

  8. #3568
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    I look at it the same way as I look at the climate crisis.

    Insisting that fascism has already won and that there's nothing that can be done to halt its advance is the political analogue to the last stage of climate change denial. It's not helpful and ultimately just services malign interests.
    I'm not saying "nothing can be done". I'm saying "the systems and processes of the US government have already been suborned". Things can still be done, they're just not gonna happen through official channels, most likely.

    The Conservative justices could die, for instance, whether by force or natural causes. Being unable to replace them, for either side, could "fix" things in the short term. You could also convict them of felonious crimes which wouldn't remove them from office, but they can't legislate from a prison cell either, I don't believe.

    It may also create such a lock-up that the government officially fails and chooses to Balkanize itself into two separate legal entities, going their separate ways, each with a selection of the States that favored their "side".

    I don't see a way forward through the normal processes of government to surmount this, though. You can't impeach SCOTUS justices without controlling the House and Senate, and there are no ethical obligations on SCOTUS justices in the first place. That's not "doomerism", that's recognizing where effective change can be made, and not wasting time and effort on situations where change simply won't happen.

    Like with climate change; it would've been nice to just stop using gasoline-powered cars back in 1995 or so, but that was never gonna happen, and pushing for that rather than effective policy would have ensured nothing got done.


  9. #3569
    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    ???

    Challenge the status quo? What's happening right now is the result of people being complacent on their rights and thinking that voting doesn't matter because their rights are constitutionally protected. In 2016 46% of young people age 18-29 voted. Most people currently protesting right now and demanding radical change had the chance to prevent this and push for their own agenda but refused to do so

    It's clear to me that people peddling for radical changes don't matter. They don't vote. AOC might be elected in like some super blue district but that doesn't matter if you can't win states like Florida where old people dominate.
    You’re not going to change old voters minds, tho. People are statistically more likely to lean more right the older they get. That’s why Dems target young people. But as you said, younger voters are harder to get to the polls. It’s not exactly because they won’t or that they're lazy, it’s because they’re more likely to just not have the time. They’re in school, in jobs that don’t allow them the time off, they can't afford to, etc.

    That’s why I fully support voting days to be national holidays, but Republicans will never agree to it because they know it won’t go in their favor.
    Fairy tales are more than true–not because they tell us dragons exist, but because they tell us dragons can be beaten. -G. K. Chesterton & Neil Gaiman

  10. #3570
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    Jefferson is my least favorite founding father. I call him a fraud if I get drunk. The dude was a walking hypocrisy. He personally reviled Slavery, he said so often when speaking around Franklin, but in his personal life he raped his female slaves and refused to acknowledge his children. Even generations after Slavery had died the Jefferson estate iirc didn't recognize them until like the 80's almost 200 years after when this occurred.
    You're wrong. Sally Hemings

  11. #3571
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    You’re not going to change old voters minds, tho. People are statistically more likely to lean more right the older they get. That’s why Dems target young people. But as you said, younger voters are harder to get to the polls. It’s not exactly because they won’t or that they're lazy, it’s because they’re more likely to just not have the time. They’re in school, in jobs that don’t allow them the time off, they can't afford to, etc.

    That’s why I fully support voting days to be national holidays, but Republicans will never agree to it because they know it won’t go in their favor.
    The point you make about getting older and becoming more conservative is a myth.

    Just the current crop of boomers are awful.
    Blessed are the fornicates, may we bend down to be their whores. Blessed are the rich, may our labor deliver them more.
    Blessed are the envious; bless the slothful, the wrathful, the vain. Blessed are the gluttonous, may they feast us to famine and war.
    What of the pious, the pure of heart, the peaceful, the meek, the mourning, and the merciful? All doomed, all doomed

  12. #3572
    Quote Originally Posted by unfilteredJW View Post
    The point you make about getting older and becoming more conservative is a myth.

    Just the current crop of boomers are awful.
    My grandparents both droned on about that forever whenever we got into political discussions (i.e. usually me reminding my grandfather, complaining about unions, that he was longtime union member that benefitted hugely from his membership).

    Meanwhile, I'm starting to approach "middle age" I guess and I'm far more radical and progressive than I was even when I was in college.

    It's fuckin hilarious, because the sentiment reads more as code for, "As you get old you just become more of a selfish asshole who doesn't care about anyone else."

    Which like, yeah, I can buy that as people get older they get increasingly selfish. As you say, just look at the fuckin boomers.

  13. #3573
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    I look at it the same way as I look at the climate crisis.

    Insisting that fascism has already won and that there's nothing that can be done to halt its advance is the political analogue to the last stage of climate change denial. It's not helpful and ultimately just services malign interests.
    Oh there's plenty that can be done. I support peaceful solutions so long as said peaceful solutions are working. But maybe it's time to put that second amendment "we need to protect ourselves from a tyrannical government" shit into action. The irony being that the conservatives are the ones bringing the tyranny.

    While doomerism might be "useless" it's also not that far out of the realm of reality now, given just how many ideological conservative judges have been packed into the courts. It's going to take Democrats doing something huge, that the courts CANNOT oppose, to stop the steady march of regression, and the Democrats seemingly don't have the balls to get bold.

    The Republicans are coming for trans rights, gay rights, and everything else that "the book" (and yet "the book" says nothing about such things) says is wrong, or at least what they think it says is wrong. They have the courts. They're galvanized and have momentum. I'd be genuinely concerned for my safety and rights if I wasn't a cishet white male. But I am concerned for the rights and safeties of all my friends that are being threatened by religious fanatics.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  14. #3574
    Immortal unfilteredJW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    My grandparents both droned on about that forever whenever we got into political discussions (i.e. usually me reminding my grandfather, complaining about unions, that he was longtime union member that benefitted hugely from his membership).

    Meanwhile, I'm starting to approach "middle age" I guess and I'm far more radical and progressive than I was even when I was in college.

    It's fuckin hilarious, because the sentiment reads more as code for, "As you get old you just become more of a selfish asshole who doesn't care about anyone else."

    Which like, yeah, I can buy that as people get older they get increasingly selfish. As you say, just look at the fuckin boomers.
    That generation has a gene coded need to project their awfulness onto others to justify there own terribleness.

    Shockingly, they vote Republican. Funny that.
    Blessed are the fornicates, may we bend down to be their whores. Blessed are the rich, may our labor deliver them more.
    Blessed are the envious; bless the slothful, the wrathful, the vain. Blessed are the gluttonous, may they feast us to famine and war.
    What of the pious, the pure of heart, the peaceful, the meek, the mourning, and the merciful? All doomed, all doomed

  15. #3575
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    I look at it the same way as I look at the climate crisis.

    Insisting that fascism has already won and that there's nothing that can be done to halt its advance is the political analogue to the last stage of climate change denial. It's not helpful and ultimately just services malign interests.
    That's very easy to say. But practically speaking, what are your ideas for solutions to the current litany of problems the United States faces? Specifics, please - not just ideological statements. How do we overcome this onslaught of oppression?

  16. #3576
    Immortal unfilteredJW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    That's very easy to say. What are you ideas for solutions to the current litany of problems the United States faces? Specifics, please - not just ideological statements.

    - - - Updated - - -

    test bed of hi
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    Blessed are the fornicates, may we bend down to be their whores. Blessed are the rich, may our labor deliver them more.
    Blessed are the envious; bless the slothful, the wrathful, the vain. Blessed are the gluttonous, may they feast us to famine and war.
    What of the pious, the pure of heart, the peaceful, the meek, the mourning, and the merciful? All doomed, all doomed

  17. #3577
    Just to get it out of the way, I'm not playing BoTh SiDeS game, but it seems like even when we ignore all the bullshit the conservatives are doing to skew everything in their favor, despite not holding a majority opinion, supporters of the Democrats also seemed to like fighting with each other way more than Republicans do. Yeah, tribalism is bad, but in the US' winner take all political system infighting is the worst thing that you can do. The Conservatives don't have to like their candidate (you can see their primary is still very heated), but once they get someone they unite behind them because they know that's how you can get things done: push your candidate through and then make sure he does his thing. On the other hand Democrat supporters can just choose not vote or vote for third party candidates because "lol fuck the establishment"

    It took the Dems one loss in 2016 over some of the pettiest things for Republicans to win presidency and elect -3- of 9 SC judges which is a direct cause of this thread even existing. It didn't need to be Trump, ANY Republican president would have done the same. I don't know if it is too late at this point, but the best thing you can do to -try- to set things right is making sure Republican doesn't win another election ever again, despite how much rigging they have been doing, to even have a chance.

  18. #3578
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Dems can't keep blaming the more left side of the party when bullshit like this is a regular occurrence

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-abortion.html

    We can't always get our way but the elected officials do fuck all or get in the way of doing fucking anything you can't blame the people who are tired of supporting the party.

    Resident Cosplay Progressive

  19. #3579
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Dems can't keep blaming the more left side of the party when bullshit like this is a regular occurrence

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-abortion.html

    We can't always get our way but the elected officials do fuck all or get in the way of doing fucking anything you can't blame the people who are tired of supporting the party.
    Yeah, I'm sadly not surprised they're still refusing to budge on the issue. Which fuck sucks, because they're killing it for literally the rest of us and hurting Democratic chances of keeping or expanding their majorities.

    I'm just glad to hear that apparently progressives are taking over the Virginia Democratic Party and they're going to try to start having a presence in the state again.

  20. #3580
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Yeah, I'm sadly not surprised they're still refusing to budge on the issue. Which fuck sucks, because they're killing it for literally the rest of us and hurting Democratic chances of keeping or expanding their majorities.

    I'm just glad to hear that apparently progressives are taking over the Virginia Democratic Party and they're going to try to start having a presence in the state again.
    I REALLY hope that they find something on Manchin that points to illegal levels of corruption over this and he gets his ass nailed to the wall.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
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    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

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