1. #3661
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    There, in bold, is where you want to make it all about you, and derail the topic.

    That is where it goes off the rails. You deflect from the point, to try and defend your own personal choices. That's the derail. You're doing it right now.
    No, that doesn't apply to just me, that's where you guys keep messing up. The derail isn't me explaining to you why you guys are getting it wrong, its you guys repeatedly bringing up blaming the voters for the consequences when that is the minor end of it with the stuff that preceded it being the the problem.

    How many times have you seen people blaming the voters and making half-assed excuses that its because "She wasn't progressive enough" as the reason while ignoring the rest?

    But saying that she ran people off didn't apply to just me, it applied to many others.

    The derail isn't me pointing the stuff out, it was them repeatedly bringing it up while neglecting the points that were pointed out and placing the majority of the blame on the part that was a vast minority of the problems.

    Also why I stopped trying to entertain the derail as much and instead of debating the topic they bring up as much I deferred to how the moderation keeps telling them to quit bringing it up and derailing the thread trying to rehash the election.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
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  2. #3662
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    I don't think there's dissonance there at all. You're free to choose who you want to choose, and you're free to subsequently abstain from voting if your candidate does not make it through the primaries; however, if you choose to do that then you have to accept the consequences of that choice. For instance, choosing not to vote in the 2016 presidential election as a means to protest against Clinton, you are acquiescing to whatever Trump was going to do. There's a good quote from Keith Ellison, which I think encompasses this, which is "Not voting is not a Protest. It is a surrender." In this instance, "protesting" against Clinton was the same as surrendering the White House to Trump, and is partially responsible for women losing their right to an abortion in the United States and will be partially responsible for any other repealed rights granted to any minority group.
    Suck my dick or I blow your head off isn't a meaningful choice and it's what leftists have to face every election cycle across the Anglosphere.

    Which is why I say Clinton was the worst candidate at the worst time. Fronting a full throated Neo Lib at the time when confidence in Neo Liberalism was collapsing to a group of voters who had spent 50 years sucking dick to protect other groups against their own interests was a bold strategy Cotton, the only defence being that the Dem Establishment was so far behind the zeitgeist that they never realised this was the reality on the ground....which isn't a defence, it's an indictment on their incompetence.

    This is all irrelevant anyway. Your literally talking about Bernie voters in swing states in significant enough numbers to change the outcome. You are essentially trying to blame the outcome of an election on >1% of voters which I'd need to see some pretty strong data on.

  3. #3663
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    It's a two party system, you fucked up, learn to live with it.
    Nah, I didn't fuck up in the slightest, that honor goes to Hillary Clinton.

    Lets say I had a time machine and could go back.

    1) I could go back in time and change my singular vote to Hillary Clinton and reward her bad behavior but not really because she still loses by over 100,000 votes spread across key battleground states. So, this is a nonstarter and wouldn't clean up her mess and wouldn't be my fault but....

    2) I could go back in time and convince Clinton to show her voters some respect and don't pull what she did with Debbie Shultz at which point she wouldn't have ran off thousands and thousands of voters just like me and including me. THAT might change the results.

    2a) I could also tell her to not pull her crap of telling her voters she wasn't going to do anything for them because "I'm winning" isn't going to end that well for her at which point she has a much better chance of winning than me flipping my vote as this would be her not screwing around and running LOTS of voters off. Or.

    3) I could go back further and tell Obama and Clinton not to run the least popular candidate that Russia has already got her grave in that election dug and even if she could possibly win against it her ego ends up digging her grave deeper than she can climb out.

    But, at the end of the day, I didn't fuck up. But you are fucking up right now trying to blame the voters for not voting for her instead of her and the DNC for all the stuff that preceded that vote. You personally are going down the logic that ends up with a repeat of 2016 because you couldn't understand how things work and that an individual voter out of thousands who were ran off aren't at fault when the politician themselves did stupid stuff to run them off. And no amount of the half-assed "She wasn't progressive enough" lie that you guys spit will change that.
    Last edited by Fugus; 2022-07-01 at 10:11 PM.
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  4. #3664
    The derail, the derail, the derail...

    It isn't derailing when it's perfectly germane to the topic. Fuck me... Why is this so hard to get, other than wanting to quash conversation because you don't like it?

    Never mind, the post above is as dumb as I can take for one day lol

  5. #3665
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    No, that doesn't apply to just me, that's where you guys keep messing up. The derail isn't me explaining to you why you guys are getting it wrong, its you guys repeatedly bringing up blaming the voters for the consequences when that is the minor end of it with the stuff that preceded it being the the problem.

    How many times have you seen people blaming the voters and making half-assed excuses that its because "She wasn't progressive enough" as the reason while ignoring the rest?

    But saying that she ran people off didn't apply to just me, it applied to many others.

    The derail isn't me pointing the stuff out, it was them repeatedly bringing it up while neglecting the points that were pointed out and placing the majority of the blame on the part that was a vast minority of the problems.

    Also why I stopped trying to entertain the derail as much and instead of debating the topic they bring up as much I deferred to how the moderation keeps telling them to quit bringing it up and derailing the thread trying to rehash the election.
    Biden is the least appealing candidate I have ever voted for in my life. He is objectively worse than Hillary in a lot of important categories, but I don't see you making the same excuses for him about being a bad candidate. The people who wrote in or didn't vote for whatever reason overturned Roe. It's just not that complicated. There is just no logical world where Hillary can "run you off" as a liberal/leftist/moderate where Trump wouldn't "run you off" even more, necessitating a vote for Hillary.

  6. #3666
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurasu View Post
    Biden is the least appealing candidate I have ever voted for in my life. He is objectively worse than Hillary in a lot of important categories, but I don't see you making the same excuses for him about being a bad candidate. The people who wrote in or didn't vote for whatever reason overturned Roe. It's just not that complicated. There is just no logical world where Hillary can "run you off" as a liberal/leftist/moderate where Trump wouldn't "run you off" even more, necessitating a vote for Hillary.
    I voted for Biden too, Biden didn't run off voters telling them he won't do anything for them because he was winning, he didn't have his party head step down in disgrace with a massive image of cheating to help him only for him to turn around and snatch them into his campaign on the same day like she did either.

    As you just said, it's not that complicated. Not sure why you hold Clinton to a lower standard than you hold Republican politicians on this.

    Now, I am not going to go any further on this derail. Got to go AFK anyways and you guys are turning into tehdang with your obsession with blaming the voters instead of the problem.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
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    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  7. #3667
    Immortal unfilteredJW's Avatar
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    But my feeeeeelings were hurt!
    Blessed are the fornicates, may we bend down to be their whores. Blessed are the rich, may our labor deliver them more.
    Blessed are the envious; bless the slothful, the wrathful, the vain. Blessed are the gluttonous, may they feast us to famine and war.
    What of the pious, the pure of heart, the peaceful, the meek, the mourning, and the merciful? All doomed, all doomed

  8. #3668
    Quote Originally Posted by unfilteredJW View Post
    But my feeeeeelings were hurt!
    But he was owed respect!

  9. #3669
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    I voted for Biden too, Biden didn't run off voters telling them he won't do anything for them because he was winning, he didn't have his party head step down in disgrace with a massive image of cheating to help him only for him to turn around and snatch them into his campaign on the same day like she did either.

    As you just said, it's not that complicated. Not sure why you hold Clinton to a lower standard than you hold Republican politicians on this.

    Now, I am not going to go any further on this derail. Got to go AFK anyways and you guys are turning into tehdang with your obsession with blaming the voters instead of the problem.
    He just literally bribed Pete Buttigieg to step out; if only he would have had a fabricated scandal instead.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Stop asking if she was entitled to your vote.

    Start asking if we're entitled to abortion access. If we're entitled to religious freedom. If we're entitled to a clean environment. If we're entitled to privacy in our bedrooms. And if we are, vote for whoever won't fucking take all that away.
    Last edited by Nurasu; 2022-07-01 at 10:44 PM. Reason: I'll never spell mayor pete the same way twice.

  10. #3670
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Nah, I didn't fuck up in the slightest, that honor goes to Hillary Clinton.

    Lets say I had a time machine and could go back.

    1) I could go back in time and change my singular vote to Hillary Clinton and reward her bad behavior but not really because she still loses by over 100,000 votes spread across key battleground states. So, this is a nonstarter and wouldn't clean up her mess and wouldn't be my fault but....

    2) I could go back in time and convince Clinton to show her voters some respect and don't pull what she did with Debbie Shultz at which point she wouldn't have ran off thousands and thousands of voters just like me and including me. THAT might change the results.

    2a) I could also tell her to not pull her crap of telling her voters she wasn't going to do anything for them because "I'm winning" isn't going to end that well for her at which point she has a much better chance of winning than me flipping my vote as this would be her not screwing around and running LOTS of voters off. Or.

    3) I could go back further and tell Obama and Clinton not to run the least popular candidate that Russia has already got her grave in that election dug and even if she could possibly win against it her ego ends up digging her grave deeper than she can climb out.

    But, at the end of the day, I didn't fuck up. But you are fucking up right now trying to blame the voters for not voting for her instead of her and the DNC for all the stuff that preceded that vote. You personally are going down the logic that ends up with a repeat of 2016 because you couldn't understand how things work and that an individual voter out of thousands who were ran off aren't at fault when the politician themselves did stupid stuff to run them off. And no amount of the half-assed "She wasn't progressive enough" lie that you guys spit will change that.
    I said it back in 2015. Stop the GOP from taking this election or you will lose the SCOTUS and women's right. I saw this very specific thing happening seven years ago and now here it is. In a two party system you are voting against someone as much as you vote for someone. And yeah sure, you stuck it to hillary for failing to inspire you. Pat yourself in the back. Enjoy your country going fully conservative. And if you think it is just women's rights . . . I read they already voted to scale back EPA's authority to set carbon targets. I am not there, I don't get to vote in your country but we will all suffer because of you people. But you are a hopeless cause who prefers to complain than vote lunatics out of office. Every person who did not vote got this result exactly as much as everyone who voted GOP. Heck depending on state and county you may have contributed more to the mess than actual voters.

  11. #3671
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post

    I don't think it is, tbh. While it goes back further than 2016, that election was a bit of a turning point which lead to a knock-on effect, bringing the US to where it is now. Yes, Democrats can do, and should have done, a whole lot more than they have. Especially when the sum total of preparation over even just the last couple of months is to read a fucking poem. So while they do share quite a lot of blame in all this, some of that blame still falls on people that voted certain ways in 2016, if they bothered to vote at all.
    I said people who didn't vote share a portion of the blame. My argument is that their portion is a small fraction of everything else. If someone can say "well the Democrats never codified RvW because SCOTUS had otherwise upheld it", giving the benefit of the doubt to PhDs who know law and politics like the back of their hands, the everyman how decided not to vote because they didnt like either candidate should be able to catch a break for not being able to read the future or understand the broader picture. Its not everyman even sees anything about SCOTUS on the ballot and should assume that SCOTUS would have upheld RvW like people who know far more about politics claim as their reason for sitting on their hands.

    Blame the 2016 fence sitter. Make sure you blame those actually in power first, though.

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  12. #3672
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    I said people who didn't vote share a portion of the blame. My argument is that their portion is a small fraction of everything else. If someone can say "well the Democrats never codified RvW because SCOTUS had otherwise upheld it", giving the benefit of the doubt to PhDs who know law and politics like the back of their hands, the everyman how decided not to vote because they didnt like either candidate should be able to catch a break for not being able to read the future or understand the broader picture. Its not everyman even sees anything about SCOTUS on the ballot and should assume that SCOTUS would have upheld RvW like people who know far more about politics claim as their reason for sitting on their hands.

    Blame the 2016 fence sitter. Make sure you blame those actually in power first, though.
    Except you know, people called this happening before those elections. It was not farfetched. Their intentions were never unclear. Just a lot of people thought they'd never do it.
    And my understanding is, to codify a law, they'd need a majority in the Senate? When did they last have it?
    I knew they'd do it when their candidate for vice president paraded pictures of an opponent on a crosshair, only for that opponent to be shot. And it didn't even make a bleep. The state of the GOP, the level of ruthlessness and casual evil was clear as day back then, well before Trump was in the picture.
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2022-07-01 at 10:59 PM.

  13. #3673
    You guy gotta get offa de-rail.
    Past mistakes notwithstanding, is there ANY question of who NOT to vote for in '24?

  14. #3674
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    You guy gotta get offa de-rail.
    Past mistakes notwithstanding, is there ANY question of who NOT to vote for in '24?
    I think the point people were making was to actually vote. Who not to vote for apparently is not enough.

  15. #3675
    Google Says It Will Delete Location Data When Users Visit Abortion Clinics

    Google said on Friday that it would delete abortion clinic visits from the location history of its users, in the company’s first effort to address how it will handle sensitive data in the wake of the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade.

    The location data change will take place in the coming weeks, Jen Fitzpatrick, a Google senior vice president, wrote in a blog post. The policy will also apply to trips to fertility clinics, domestic violence shelters, addiction treatment facilities and other sensitive locations.

    The Alphabet Workers Union, a group representing more than 800 people who work for Google’s parent company, Alphabet, demanded on Tuesday that the search giant delete any personal data that law enforcement could try to use to prosecute those who are getting abortions.

    With Friday’s announcement, while Google will delete some location data, it did not commit to automatically deleting search records about abortions, which may also become sought after. Users must individually opt to delete their search history.

    Google has been sued by the state of Texas, accused of continuing to track users even when they use the Chrome web browsers’ supposedly private Incognito Mode — which may further erode confidence that the company will purge all data when people try to browse privately.

    Google also made no commitments about changing the way it handles government data requests.

    “We remain committed to protecting our users against improper government demands for data, and we will continue to oppose demands that are overly broad or otherwise legally objectionable,” Ms. Fitzpatrick wrote.

    The company also said that users will soon be able to more quickly delete multiple menstruation logs stored on Fitbit, a health-tracking company owned by Google, rather than one at a time. The company also reminded users to employ existing settings options on Google to improve their online privacy.

  16. #3676
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Makes it sound like you did go from Bernie to Trump, though. If so, I have to ask; why? How do you reconcile that choice with what is currently happening in the US?
    This is what you folk always assume of anyone who doesn't agree that voting for Clinton was the only real choice.

    No, I voted for Clinton. And Biden, too. In fact, I finally convinced my wife how important voting was so we both voted for them. I actually brought a non-voter into the game, effectively doubling my vote.

    And we've both agreed that we won't be voting this year. Probably not in 2024, either. We have our reasons, which I'm sure you don't care about because every single one of you insists that anyone that isn't pro-Trump must vote for whoever the Democrats spit up or the end of the world is all our fault.

    I fundamentally disagree with the idea that people are monolithic blocs that all behave as a hivemind. This entire concept of "If you liked Bernie's policies then you MUST vote Clinton because she's closer in some way to them than Trump" is patently in error. People have a multitude of reasons why they choose what they choose, and just because you think Trump would be worse for a voter who preferred Bernie does not mean that that voter thinks so as well. Clearly, some didn't.

    You all keep trying to rob voters of their own agency and demand that they accede to what you think is the correct and proper choice. The Democrats are doing the exact same thing ... how's it working out for you and them?

    The Democratic party, and you, need to stop trying to demand that people do what you want and start listening to what those voters actually want and start making an effort to give it to them. That's what Republicans do, and it works. If you want Sanders voters to vote for your candidate when he loses the primary then you have to take those voters' concerns on board in a serious manner. Democrats refuse to do this because, at the heart of it, they also reject Sanders's policies.

  17. #3677
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    And we've both agreed that we won't be voting this year. Probably not in 2024, either. We have our reasons
    I was going to reply properly, but got to this bit and realised it's utterly pointless when you express shit like this. Whatever your reasons are, they're bullshit. Especially right now when you can literally see what is going on.

    Congrats on deciding you don't want to use what little actual power you have as a US citizen.

    Once again; baffling.

  18. #3678
    The Unstoppable Force Belize's Avatar
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    Maybe Google, should just like... Not harvest all our data in the first place...

  19. #3679
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    Suck my dick or I blow your head off isn't a meaningful choice and it's what leftists have to face every election cycle across the Anglosphere.

    Which is why I say Clinton was the worst candidate at the worst time. Fronting a full throated Neo Lib at the time when confidence in Neo Liberalism was collapsing to a group of voters who had spent 50 years sucking dick to protect other groups against their own interests was a bold strategy Cotton, the only defence being that the Dem Establishment was so far behind the zeitgeist that they never realised this was the reality on the ground....which isn't a defence, it's an indictment on their incompetence.
    Again, that's great, but if people refused to vote for her or voted without tact and there's now consequences because of that, that is their fault. You cannot just throw everything on the DNC and handwave the actions of the voting public.

    This is all irrelevant anyway. Your literally talking about Bernie voters in swing states in significant enough numbers to change the outcome. You are essentially trying to blame the outcome of an election on >1% of voters which I'd need to see some pretty strong data on.
    No, this is not the case. The post you initially replied to what in regards to someone's statements about voting or not voting for a candidate and any potential blame for subsequent events. I would refer you back to the start of the reply thread. This was not and is not a holistic examination of the 2016 election, but a condemnation of a flawed perspective. The downfall of the Democrats in the 2016 election was multifaceted, which included the sexist portrayal of Clinton's leadership skills by Trump's campaign and online shills, and the white working class electorate buying into Trump's racism. Moreover, even if we did go into the weeds about the Sanders voters, your over-simplification of "[you] are essentially trying to blame the outcome of an election on >1% of voters" hints at you likely not understanding the issue very well. The problem isn't just Sander's voters in that context, rather it is the campaign run by Sanders and his team that actively attacked Clinton and would go on to be leveraged by Trump's campaign.
    Last edited by Magical Mudcrab; 2022-07-02 at 12:21 AM.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  20. #3680
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Except you know, people called this happening before those elections. It was not farfetched. Their intentions were never unclear. Just a lot of people thought they'd never do it.
    And my understanding is, to codify a law, they'd need a majority in the Senate? When did they last have it?
    I knew they'd do it when their candidate for vice president paraded pictures of an opponent on a crosshair, only for that opponent to be shot. And it didn't even make a bleep. The state of the GOP, the level of ruthlessness and casual evil was clear as day back then, well before Trump was in the picture.
    I said that in my original post. The GOP vocalized their intentions for decades, they just never had the opportunity. So if the GOP was very open about what they were going to do then how come Democrats never codified RvW when they had the opportunity? Why didn't they raise hell when McConnell held up the seat or RBG didn't retire so a guaranteed young left Justice could take her seat? Again, if you want to blame everyman for not voting, you better blame the people who had the power and responsibility to do more.

    When did they last have it?
    We're on the internet, thats easy information to look up. But the Dems held both houses and the WH during Obama's first term.

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