1. #801
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Simple question; does your church want to force everyone else in society to abide by their views when it comes to abortion, forcing even non-believers to follow the rules of your faith, against their will?
    Appreciate the discussion of terms and definitions. Simple answer, no. Again, I can't speak for individuals, but as a group I could sum up our official stance on this as "we'd rather you didn't get an abortion but you're still a valuable person if you do." We frown on abortions WITHIN our congregation, there's no denying it...and some may use stronger language. My wife and I have had one occasion to oppose an abortion by a personal friend, and only because she asked for our opinion. She went through with it and while it does sting a bit to remember, we still love her and love on her (attended her wedding recently as members of the bridal party, it was nice). It's amazing what some perspective can provide to a person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Here's the thing. That's a Christian problem. If you don't want to be judged as a group by the same standard then it's up to you as a group to police the lunatics or to at least be very vocal about you guys "Not being with stupid".
    I like your whole post but quoting this in particular because it's true. You wouldn't believe the headaches we get from the "Christian Nationalism" movement. There have been a few good articles written on it, and it's been on the rise for several years but really picked up when we had the audacity to elect a black man as president and then ESPECIALLY after the great pumpkin started saying all the quiet things out loud.
    Last edited by Skjaldborg; 2022-05-05 at 04:31 PM.

  2. #802
    Elemental Lord Templar 331's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Oh, I have seen people discount the verses because it is Old Testament. And it isn't just a how-to, it is a forced abortion procedure.
    I'd love to see that passage used as "freedom of religion" for abortions, but it would likely be shot down every step of the way to SCOTUS. Where these same conservative judges would make any and every excuse against it.

  3. #803
    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    You're missing the point that many anti-abortion positions are based on the duty of the state to protect individuals.
    Horseshit. That enlightened centrist Ben Shabibo horseshit.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2PA...PhilosophyTube

    Do us all a favor, make an effort. Watch it.

  4. #804
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    You're missing the point that many anti-abortion positions are based on the duty of the state to protect individuals. And since nobody can really define when an "individual" is formed, is why this is such a difficult issue. This is the cleanest way to put it, leaving religion and other biases out of it. To say it's solely a healthcare decision or solely a women's rights issue is not portraying the issue fairly. Not saying that's my personal view, only that other views exist and can't just be so easily discarded.
    Again; no, it really isn't difficult. No one is entitled to abrogate someone's bodily autonomy even if doing so would save their life. You're not entitled to take blood or organs from a corpse without consent, much less a living person.

    So "protecting individuals" continues to be a horseshit copout to disguise the actual goal, that being stripping women of their autonomy.
    The Were/Was Army: "Nooo you can't just vaporize my entire armored division, we had such a manly recruitment ad!"
    The They/Them Army: "Omg integrated fire support?? Go off queen sksksks, JDAMs are such a gemini thing."

  5. #805
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    "Conservatives" are moving the clock backwards.

    Most states have underage marriage, but most states have restrictions like parental approval for the minor(s) involved. Some require court approval too.

    However, it used to be if an adult man forced himself on a teenage girl, she would be forced to marry him.
    And 13 states have no minimum age requirements with Alabama going as extreme as granting a marriage to a 65 year old man and 12 year old girl in 2014, so not exactly ancient history.

    Edit: and he can legally bend her over any time and way he wants so long as he doesn’t record it, but Alito might be trying to limit some of this by outlawing sexual activities that gays also engage in. I gods name of course…
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  6. #806
    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    You're missing the point that many anti-abortion positions are based on the duty of the state to protect individuals.
    Which individuals? Because if this was true, there'd be support for full prenatal care and post-birth care to drive down maternal and infant mortality rates - not banning medically necessary abortions like many states are doing.

    Purely as a matter of health care, this is achieving the exact opposite goals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    And since nobody can really define when an "individual" is formed
    Scientifically, we can and do. The problem is people reject the science and facts in favor of their beliefs and feels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    To say it's solely a healthcare decision or solely a women's rights issue is not portraying the issue fairly.
    It absolutely is. Because the counter-arguments are all based on religious interpretations of morality. It ignores the actual health care aspect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    only that other views exist and can't just be so easily discarded.
    No, you're highlighting why these are such bad-faith (ironic) arguments.

  7. #807
    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    To say it's solely a healthcare decision or solely a women's rights issue is not portraying the issue fairly.
    But those are exactly what it is. If you think it is anything more than that, then you're just bringing things like religion back into it.

  8. #808
    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    You're missing the point that many anti-abortion positions are based on the duty of the state to protect individuals. And since nobody can really define when an "individual" is formed, is why this is such a difficult issue. This is the cleanest way to put it, leaving religion and other biases out of it. To say it's solely a healthcare decision or solely a women's rights issue is not portraying the issue fairly. Not saying that's my personal view, only that other views exist and can't just be so easily discarded.
    Given how even in countries with most draconian anti-abortion laws the politicians passing them (who, by pure coincidence, are religious nutjobs) don't extend personhood to fetuses for the plethora of legal issues it would cause it actually can be easily discarded. Because it shows how they are full of shit and this whole blabbering about treating fetuses as individuals is just empty demagoguery to hide their actual reasons. Which is religious nutjobs enforcing their religious dogma on people that couldn't give a rat's ass about it, because they can't handle the idea that someone may decide for themself not to make their life revolve around a book written by iron age people that had no clue about anything whatsoever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  9. #809
    I am Murloc! Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Again; no, it really isn't difficult. No one is entitled to abrogate someone's bodily autonomy even if doing so would save their life. You're not entitled to take blood or organs from a corpse without consent, much less a living person.

    So "protecting individuals" continues to be a horseshit copout to disguise the actual goal, that being stripping women of their autonomy.
    Hell, some states don't even force organ donars to give up organs after death if the family puts up too much a stink.

    Legally, the family can't block it but most hospitals will not force the donation even if the dead consented.

    It is arguable a dead woman has more bodily autonomy than a living one.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  10. #810
    Immortal unfilteredJW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    You're missing the point that many anti-abortion positions are based on the duty of the state to protect individuals. And since nobody can really define when an "individual" is formed, is why this is such a difficult issue. This is the cleanest way to put it, leaving religion and other biases out of it. To say it's solely a healthcare decision or solely a women's rights issue is not portraying the issue fairly. Not saying that's my personal view, only that other views exist and can't just be so easily discarded.
    They can and should.
    Blessed are the fornicates, may we bend down to be their whores. Blessed are the rich, may our labor deliver them more.
    Blessed are the envious; bless the slothful, the wrathful, the vain. Blessed are the gluttonous, may they feast us to famine and war.
    What of the pious, the pure of heart, the peaceful, the meek, the mourning, and the merciful? All doomed, all doomed

  11. #811
    I am Murloc! Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar 331 View Post
    I'd love to see that passage used as "freedom of religion" for abortions, but it would likely be shot down every step of the way to SCOTUS. Where these same conservative judges would make any and every excuse against it.
    Well, the Satanic Church's faith states that abortions must be allowed if the women seeks it. So they have already started moving in the states that once Roe is shot down applying for religious exemption to the abortion ban.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  12. #812
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Well, the Satanic Church's faith states that abortions must be allowed if the women seeks it. So they have already started moving in the states that once Roe is shot down applying for religious exemption to the abortion ban.
    My guess they'll use the Covid vaccine precedent of not giving religious exemption and give them the finger. I know it's apples and oranges, but these people don't give a fuck.

  13. #813
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Well, the Satanic Church's faith states that abortions must be allowed if the women seeks it. So they have already started moving in the states that once Roe is shot down applying for religious exemption to the abortion ban.
    Watching the Satanic church push for individual rights and freedoms while "pro-individual rights and freedoms" conservatives lose their minds is top quality humor.

  14. #814
    Quote Originally Posted by unfilteredJW View Post
    They can and should.
    Wow, such an ironclad argument. And yet you wonder how the Dems have continued to lose previous swaths of reliable voters, how they've lost most state legislatures, most governor's mansions, the SCOTUS, and a soon to be GOP trifecta in 2024.

    You're looking at GG for at least the next couple generations and you don't even know it. I wish "Dems in Disarray" was just a meme but look at what it's brought us.

  15. #815
    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    Wow, such an ironclad argument. And yet you wonder how the Dems have continued to lose previous swaths of reliable voters, how they've lost most state legislatures, most governor's mansions, the SCOTUS, and a soon to be GOP trifecta in 2024.

    You're looking at GG for at least the next couple generations and you don't even know it. I wish "Dems in Disarray" was just a meme but look at what it's brought us.
    All the replies you got and this is the one you replied to. Just in case anyone thought you were a serious poster with good faith posting habits lol

  16. #816
    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    Wow, such an ironclad argument. And yet you wonder how the Dems have continued to lose previous swaths of reliable voters, how they've lost most state legislatures, most governor's mansions, the SCOTUS, and a soon to be GOP trifecta in 2024.

    You're looking at GG for at least the next couple generations and you don't even know it. I wish "Dems in Disarray" was just a meme but look at what it's brought us.
    We don't wonder, we know exactly why, and it's nothing you seem to allude to here, Mr Trumpster.

  17. #817
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Well, the Satanic Church's faith states that abortions must be allowed if the women seeks it. So they have already started moving in the states that once Roe is shot down applying for religious exemption to the abortion ban.
    I don't think it'll work. The new conservative justices have no problem with giving legally inconsistent and preferential rulings. Christians will have an absolute right to disregard just about any law they want. Others, not so much.

  18. #818
    Immortal unfilteredJW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    All the replies you got and this is the one you replied to. Just in case anyone thought you were a serious poster with good faith posting habits lol
    It’s always the case and never fails to amuse.

    It’s the same from all these faux enlightened centrists.
    Last edited by unfilteredJW; 2022-05-05 at 04:59 PM.
    Blessed are the fornicates, may we bend down to be their whores. Blessed are the rich, may our labor deliver them more.
    Blessed are the envious; bless the slothful, the wrathful, the vain. Blessed are the gluttonous, may they feast us to famine and war.
    What of the pious, the pure of heart, the peaceful, the meek, the mourning, and the merciful? All doomed, all doomed

  19. #819
    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    I wish "Dems in Disarray" was just a meme but look at what it's brought us.
    Holy shit if you think this is how we got here I have at least a dozen bridges to sell you.

  20. #820
    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    Wow, such an ironclad argument. And yet you wonder how the Dems have continued to lose previous swaths of reliable voters, how they've lost most state legislatures, most governor's mansions, the SCOTUS, and a soon to be GOP trifecta in 2024.

    You're looking at GG for at least the next couple generations and you don't even know it. I wish "Dems in Disarray" was just a meme but look at what it's brought us.
    Yeah, democrats losing SCOTUS has nothing to do with Congress Republicans engaging in inconsistent, hypocritical shitfuckery and state legislatures have nothing to do with massive levels of gerry-mandering done by the GOP. Which, for the record, GOP has to repeatedly engage in because they most certainly are losing voters. Same reason why they want to pass legislation limiting voting rights for large amount of people.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2022-05-05 at 05:06 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

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