1. #1441
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That's not possible.

    The "rigged" nature (it isn't, really) is entirely because of who actually votes and who doesn't. Expecting those who are already largely getting the system they're voting for to change things is completely irrational. Protect your own interests.

    Even in cases where measures are put in place to bar your vote. If you're not taking the kind of action that civil rights advocates took during women's suffrage and race laws barring voting for blacks, then you're not fighting this issue, you're sitting there and accepting it.
    I'm not disagreeing with you here, but, these two sentiments seem a bit at odds or at least not complimentary.

    You seem to be saying that the system is not rigged because it's the people who vote who decide things, so if things didn't go your way it's because not enough people that support it voted for it. That's 100% accurate.

    But in your next sentence you discuss how your vote is barred in some places and that it's your fault if you don't fight for the right to vote. I don't disagree that you should fight for that right, but saying that the system isn't rigged while also accepting and discussing that some people are barred from voting seems weird.

    That's exactly WHY the system is "rigged." The fact that some people have to fight for their right to vote while others don't means that it's rigged in favor of those who don't have to fight for their right to vote.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    They can put barriers between you and the polls to disincentivize you voting, but giving up and not voting means they win.

    And in the USA, it's mostly about such barriers.

    And, to repeat, if your response is to not vote when you're legally entitled to, then you're sitting there and accepting it. I get the whole making it awkward for poor people to vote, by not making it a federal holiday and reducing polling stations to increase travel/wait times, and all that, but you need to accept the personal costs.

    The only way you're gonna have a shot at making the system fair is by making every effort to vote. All of you. You're given the opportunity to fight, and the battlefield may not be fair, but giving up and surrendering without even trying isn't a reasonable response.
    You're hand waving a lot of things away here, by saying it's your fault you don't vote and that you need to do anything you can to vote, when for some that implication is they lose their job or impacts their personal life in a profound way.

    If it really was just as easy as having the gumption to get up and vote despite what people think, it wouldn't be such an issue. The problem is it has real consequences for some people who literally cannot vote due to their job circumstance. You've discussed before how being poor is not a choice (which I don't disagree with) and that there is truly no choice for some people to take whatever job they can get their hands on (which I also don't disagree with), but then you're here now saying that a person should be willing to "do whatever it takes" which MIGHT mean giving up that job to go vote and if they don't it's their fault if the vote doesn't go their way...it seems little disconnected.

  2. #1442
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I'm not disagreeing with you here, but, these two sentiments seem a bit at odds or at least not complimentary.

    You seem to be saying that the system is not rigged because it's the people who vote who decide things, so if things didn't go your way it's because not enough people that support it voted for it. That's 100% accurate.

    But in your next sentence you discuss how your vote is barred in some places and that it's your fault if you don't fight for the right to vote. I don't disagree that you should fight for that right, but saying that the system isn't rigged while also accepting and discussing that some people are barred from voting seems weird.

    That's exactly WHY the system is "rigged." The fact that some people have to fight for their right to vote while others don't means that it's rigged in favor of those who don't have to fight for their right to vote.
    Votes generally aren't barred, in the USA (some exceptions with ex-felons). They're just made more awkward to encourage people to not bother; fewer polling stations meaning longer lines and longer travel distances to reach them, for instance, or hoops to jump through to secure particular ID cards (for free; the ones that aren't get tossed as a poll tax) to identify yourself.

    Those are bad things; they're not fair or reasonable. I'm not defending them. But they're also eminently surpassable to anyone who cares. Compare this to earlier eras, where people were flat-out denied votes, or had gangs of whites ready to beat any black who turned up to legally vote. Those battles were fought, so yeah, I kind of expect people today to fight too. Deal with the shit, cast your votes, and change the country. It's right there, right in front of you, and 90 million Americans just fuckin' say "nah, can't be arsed to try".


    You're hand waving a lot of things away here, by saying it's your fault you don't vote and that you need to do anything you can to vote, when for some that implication is they lose their job or impacts their personal life in a profound way.
    Living in a country where taking the time off to vote causes such issues is the result of those same people not voting. It doesn't have to be that way; here in Canada there's legal protections that mandate employers allow time off and such to go vote. And we've got higher voter turnout than the USA, largely as a result of such things. Not 100%, but a significant bump from 66% of the voting public (US) to about 76% in Canada.

    The possibility of losing your job or some other personal impact is bad, but so was being assaulted. So was being spat on. That shit only changed because of people challenging that status quo and voting anyway. It's a battle. You need to fight. That might mean you get hurt, but you're already being crushed to death.

    I'm not saying there won't be personal costs. I'm saying there are always personal costs to a fight. That doesn't mean it's not worth fighting.

    If it really was just as easy as having the gumption to get up and vote despite what people think, it wouldn't be such an issue. The problem is it has real consequences for some people who literally cannot vote due to their job circumstance
    The status quo, where women's basic bodily autonomy is about to be struck away by the Supreme Court, is also "real consequences". You're getting real consequences whether you vote or not.

    Also; you can vote, regardless of your job circumstance. You might lose your job, but you can vote.

    You've discussed before how being poor is not a choice (which I don't disagree with) and that there is truly no choice for some people to take whatever job they can get their hands on (which I also don't disagree with), but then you're here now saying that a person should be willing to "do whatever it takes" which MIGHT mean giving up that job to go vote and if they don't it's their fault if the vote doesn't go their way...it seems little disconnected.
    I'm saying if someone breaks into your house and tries to steal your shit, and the government says it's okay for them to steal your shit, you should punch that fucker in the face.

    They might punch you back.

    But if you don't fight for your stuff, you're gonna lose your stuff, and your passivity in not resisting the status quo means you're complicit with and accept that status quo. You might get punched in the face. Hell, you might lose, and get punched in the face and lose your stuff anyway. But at least you'd have fought for it, rather than just sighed and said "that's just how it's got to be".

    Yes, I disagree with the status quo. But the way to get meaningful and rapid change in that status quo is for non-voters to start fighting and voting. There's no disconnect; I'm not arguing it'll be easy or without consequence. But the alternative is just accepting being exploited and abused unjustly and without contest, and I think that's worse.


  3. #1443
    I am Murloc! Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Aw shucks. I thought we might finally have one in the "we actually believe abortion is murder and will punish it accordingly" column. Guess it's back to "we don't buy our own horseshit and simply want to use the charged language to get gullible morons to agree with us" for them.
    Republicans had at times the ability to pass laws removing the Roe v Wade decision. They never did.

    Part of me wonders if this entire draft is just a performance, but I think they are doing this as a last ditch effort to rally their base to vote for them because I am certain they know they are losing.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  4. #1444
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    I am certain they know they are losing.
    Let's add to that.

    One, they're not just losing, they're dying of old age.

    Two, I don't know if they've thought this through. Making abortion illegal in red states mean that pro-choice people in red states will have more children, slowly moving the balance away from being red states. Also, the deplorable term "anchor baby". Those will become mandatory.

    Of course, those two are kind of self-cancelling. "Who cares what happens to my fellow man in 20 years? I'll be dead in ten!"

  5. #1445
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Republicans had at times the ability to pass laws removing the Roe v Wade decision. They never did.

    Part of me wonders if this entire draft is just a performance, but I think they are doing this as a last ditch effort to rally their base to vote for them because I am certain they know they are losing.
    For me. I have had the theory that this wasn’t a performance but more “testing the waters” to see the level of push back their ideals will have and their odds of getting stuff over turned or them being packed if they push their luck. So they know how hard they can push and then let stuff cool off before their next push.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  6. #1446
    So a side story I'm seeing on my social media feed is the baby formula shortage. Of course some of this I guess is getting directed to migrants and the right is having a huge fit right now that migrants are getting formula. So much for pro-life.

    Oh yeah if this is some America first, our babies first so it's a pro-life. Okay so now there is a sub section of which babies have higher ranks on who to save? I would love to see the list of who gets first priority.
    “There is a cult of ignorance in the United States…. [It is] nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.’”

    -Isaac Asimov

  7. #1447
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Let's add to that.

    One, they're not just losing, they're dying of old age.

    Two, I don't know if they've thought this through. Making abortion illegal in red states mean that pro-choice people in red states will have more children, slowly moving the balance away from being red states. Also, the deplorable term "anchor baby". Those will become mandatory.

    Of course, those two are kind of self-cancelling. "Who cares what happens to my fellow man in 20 years? I'll be dead in ten!"
    This is how fascism progresses, though.

    You take one galling step, and when you don't get enough pushback to stop you, you use whatever power that step granted you to harm your enemies, and then take one even more galling step, knowing you've weakened your opponents even further, seizing greater power to advance even more harm.

    It isn't about any long-term plan; there's never a long-term plan, the focus is always on the next awful step and which of your enemies you can harm and by how much. Ever-whittling-away, to the point that eventually, all your original enemies are dead and the fascism turns inward, purging those not strongly-enough in support of the regime, creating new enemies out of old allies solely for the sake of creating the subjects for the continuation of abuse.

    Population growth of non-fascists in fascist states won't be a thing that will ever translate into actual demographic change, because they'll have taken further galling steps into damnation well before that's ever a potential risk.

    Consider; if the Nazis had banned abortion, would that have led to an explosion of the Jewish population had the Reich continued onward? Or would the Holocaust kinda overruled any such potential outcome?


  8. #1448
    To my recollection, I have always voted since I became a naturalized US citizen. At least the big national elections. However, California made it easy to vote. There was always a polling place within 5 minutes from our home and I don't recall ever having to wait more than 5 minutes. I have been using mail-in ballots since 2016. The last time I voted in person was for the SFUSD school board recall. It was a last moment decision. That was as easy as walking out of our backyard into the alley, out into the street, 2 blocks west, half a block north and we were at the polling place in a Presbyterian Church.

    Would I have voted so regularly if I had to stand in line for 2-3 hours or longer? Which is not uncommon in the poorest regions of many hot and humid southern states. Probably not.

    Election Day Voting in 2020 Took Longer in America’s Poorest Neighborhoods


  9. #1449
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Would I have voted so regularly if I had to stand in line for 2-3 hours or longer? Which is not uncommon in the poorest regions of many hot and humid southern states. Probably not.
    Just to reiterate; not denying this is a massive problem and a clear example of systemic and intentional racism.

    Just that a 2-hour wait time to vote isn't preventing you voting. I've waited in a queue for hours for a bunch of things in the past, if I gave enough of a shit about the thing.

    Absolutely, the discrepancy should be addressed. A big reason it isn't addressed is that the discrepancy works, and people choose not to engage. Which is a choice they need to reverse course on, if you ever want the injustice to get addressed. Self-fulfilling prophecy.

    I'm not saying everything's hunky-dory and people need to "not be lazy" or some garbage. I'm saying the deck's being stacked against them and the response to that should be to fight back.


  10. #1450

  11. #1451
    I wanna know if pregnant women can claim their fetus as a dependent? Can they get benefits for the fetus? I mean, there are a lot of open-ended legal questions with granting fetal personhood.

  12. #1452
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Just to reiterate; not denying this is a massive problem and a clear example of systemic and intentional racism.

    Just that a 2-hour wait time to vote isn't preventing you voting. I've waited in a queue for hours for a bunch of things in the past, if I gave enough of a shit about the thing.

    Absolutely, the discrepancy should be addressed. A big reason it isn't addressed is that the discrepancy works, and people choose not to engage. Which is a choice they need to reverse course on, if you ever want the injustice to get addressed. Self-fulfilling prophecy.

    I'm not saying everything's hunky-dory and people need to "not be lazy" or some garbage. I'm saying the deck's being stacked against them and the response to that should be to fight back.
    Two to 3 hours wait time was national average. Once you narrowed the wait time to specific states, you started seeing some truly absurd wait times.

    Why Do Nonwhite Georgia Voters Have To Wait In Line For Hours? Too Few Polling Places

    Kathy spotted the long line of voters as she pulled into the Christian City Welcome Center about 3:30 p.m., ready to cast her ballot in the June 9 primary election.

    Hundreds of people were waiting in the heat and rain outside the lush, tree-lined complex in Union City, an Atlanta suburb with 22,400 residents, nearly 88% of them Black. She briefly considered not casting a ballot at all, but decided to stay.

    By the time she got inside more than five hours later, the polls had officially closed and the electronic scanners were shut down. Poll workers told her she'd have to cast a provisional ballot, but they promised that her vote would be counted.

    "I'm now angry again, I'm frustrated again, and now I have an added emotion, which is anxiety," said Kathy, a human services worker, recalling her emotions at the time. She asked that her full name not be used because she fears repercussions from speaking out. "I'm wondering if my ballot is going to count."

    By the time the last voter finally got inside the welcome center to cast a ballot, it was the next day, June 10.


    That was Metro Atlanta which is comparable to San Francisco metro area. Not some rural town in the middle of nowhere.

  13. #1453
    I am Murloc! Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I wanna know if pregnant women can claim their fetus as a dependent? Can they get benefits for the fetus? I mean, there are a lot of open-ended legal questions with granting fetal personhood.
    No, you see that would make sense. Also, we need to add stuff to a lot of age based laws if life begins at conception. Rather than 18 years of age, it should be 18 years from birth.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Just to reiterate; not denying this is a massive problem and a clear example of systemic and intentional racism.

    Just that a 2-hour wait time to vote isn't preventing you voting. I've waited in a queue for hours for a bunch of things in the past, if I gave enough of a shit about the thing.

    Absolutely, the discrepancy should be addressed. A big reason it isn't addressed is that the discrepancy works, and people choose not to engage. Which is a choice they need to reverse course on, if you ever want the injustice to get addressed. Self-fulfilling prophecy.

    I'm not saying everything's hunky-dory and people need to "not be lazy" or some garbage. I'm saying the deck's being stacked against them and the response to that should be to fight back.
    Yeah, but unfortunately, it isn't that simple.

    You have to fight conditioning, so many people wrongly believe it doesn't matter because it is six of one and half a dozen of the other.

    This is also why I have to remind people that voter suppression isn't a what, it is a how. There is nothing that 100% of the time is voter suppression, but it is how it is implemented or used that is voter suppression.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  14. #1454
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Just to reiterate; not denying this is a massive problem and a clear example of systemic and intentional racism.

    Just that a 2-hour wait time to vote isn't preventing you voting. I've waited in a queue for hours for a bunch of things in the past, if I gave enough of a shit about the thing.

    Absolutely, the discrepancy should be addressed. A big reason it isn't addressed is that the discrepancy works, and people choose not to engage. Which is a choice they need to reverse course on, if you ever want the injustice to get addressed. Self-fulfilling prophecy.

    I'm not saying everything's hunky-dory and people need to "not be lazy" or some garbage. I'm saying the deck's being stacked against them and the response to that should be to fight back.
    The thing is though that you kind of align with the narrative of those who would call them lazy by doing so. I mean, the implication of that last paragraph is that those who allow this to deter them are not fighting back, as in making the choice not to fight. The moment you conflate waiting in queue with fighting, you also conflate not waiting in queue with not fighting. Those who can only afford to wait for a certain time due to having to take care of children, having to work, etc, they suddenly choose not to fight which probably does not come across well.

  15. #1455
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    No, you see that would make sense. Also, we need to add stuff to a lot of age based laws if life begins at conception. Rather than 18 years of age, it should be 18 years from birth.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yeah, but unfortunately, it isn't that simple.

    You have to fight conditioning, so many people wrongly believe it doesn't matter because it is six of one and half a dozen of the other.

    This is also why I have to remind people that voter suppression isn't a what, it is a how. There is nothing that 100% of the time is voter suppression, but it is how it is implemented or used that is voter suppression.
    Below is a picture of 6-hour line in Marrieta, GA. Population all of 60k. I hate sounding like a broken record, but SF with a population of 890k never ever saw a line like that. Typical wait time for voting in SF in 2020 was "no wait."

    Correction. The picture was from Cobb County. Apparently, the wait time at Marrieta was even longer.

    Last edited by Rasulis; 2022-05-13 at 08:46 PM.

  16. #1456
    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    So a side story I'm seeing on my social media feed is the baby formula shortage. Of course some of this I guess is getting directed to migrants and the right is having a huge fit right now that migrants are getting formula. So much for pro-life.

    Oh yeah if this is some America first, our babies first so it's a pro-life. Okay so now there is a sub section of which babies have higher ranks on who to save? I would love to see the list of who gets first priority.
    It's not just about having more babies.

    It's also about having the "right kind of babies". No "subhuman" babies. I think we already established that when they started sticking children into dog cages at the border.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  17. #1457
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Below is a picture of 6-hour line in Marrieta, GA. Population all of 60k. I hate sounding like a broken record, but SF with a population of 890k never ever saw a line like that. Typical wait time for voting in SF in 2020 was "no wait."

    Correction. The picture was from Cobb County. Apparently, the wait time at Marrieta was even longer.

    No excuse for it, yeah. When I dwelled in Montreal (pop 1.7M), voting took maybe 20 minutes of waiting. Since I moved to the south shore it's been less than 10 even in relatively large neighborhoods. There's never any reason to not have many polling places, it may be a large-ish expense for a day but a day is nothing in a yearly budget.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

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  18. #1458
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    The thing is though that you kind of align with the narrative of those who would call them lazy by doing so. I mean, the implication of that last paragraph is that those who allow this to deter them are not fighting back, as in making the choice not to fight. The moment you conflate waiting in queue with fighting, you also conflate not waiting in queue with not fighting. Those who can only afford to wait for a certain time due to having to take care of children, having to work, etc, they suddenly choose not to fight which probably does not come across well.
    I have been clear that I am not arguing that this is easy. I have been comparing this to facing down gangs of racists seeking to beat people physically to prevent them voting. I have been comparing it to risking getting punched in the face. To marching for hours in protests and risking violent police counteraction in pursuit of justice. That's why I've been clear that this is a fight.

    And choosing to not fight injustice and just accept its continuation shouldn't be presented as some kind of legitimate, high-minded position. My issue isn't with the single mom with 4 kids who can't afford to take 5 hours off work to vote because 5 lost hours is, at minimum, days of her kids going hungry, if not worse because she might lose her job(s), it's with the people who try and act like refusing to vote is some kind of statement, some ideological position.

    And it's not. If we're talking Mazlowe's Hierarchy of Needs, overcoming this kind of injustice could be at any level above the baseline physiological; mostly falling between "safety needs" and "esteem" somewhere, and if voting puts your physiological needs at risk; your needs for food, shelter, etc, then sure, I get prioritizing the latter out of desperation. You've got more-critical fights you're already fighting, and possibly losing. But if you've got any energy to spare, voting to try and ameliorate the pressures forcing you into that hardship should be high on the list. A lot of these issues that could be changed through voting hit people right in the same "safety needs" of Mazlowe's hierarchy; health, employment, personal security, etc. Anti-abortion stuff, for instance, is a direct attack on women's safety needs. It's the kind of thing you should at least be considering risking your job to vote against. Is it great that you have to put that much on the line? Fuck no. But the only way to get that kind of stuff off the line is to get out and vote. It's a fight, and they're not gonna leave you be. Fighting back is the only real option on the table.

    My point here isn't to be accusatory. It's that the fight's already started, and people gotta start fighting back. We're in the middle of re-learning why "all that evil requires to prosper is that good people do nothing." The average German who was disinterested in voting in 1932 ended up helping the Nazis get elected, because they decided it wasn't worth fighting against. That was not the right choice, and I'd rather not have to hope a new generation can maybe learn that lesson from another example, this time of the USA's decay into fascism. It can be stopped, over just the next couple years, if Americans make the effort.
    Last edited by Endus; 2022-05-13 at 09:25 PM.


  19. #1459
    Elemental Lord Milchshake's Avatar
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    For incels that don't know how evaporated milk is made...
    • As you might expect it starts with filling a giant tank with cow milk.
    • Ben Shapiro then tries to turn the milk on
    • Draining it of all moisture, leaving a fine powder which is immediately canned.



    have a nice weekend everyone.

  20. #1460
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Below is a picture of 6-hour line in Marrieta, GA. Population all of 60k. I hate sounding like a broken record, but SF with a population of 890k never ever saw a line like that. Typical wait time for voting in SF in 2020 was "no wait."

    Correction. The picture was from Cobb County. Apparently, the wait time at Marrieta was even longer.

    That's because national elections should be run nationally. Having individual states ratfuck their own portion of a national election shouldn't be allowed to happen. California wants everyone to vote. Georgia only wants the McMansion suburbs voting.

    This is something Canada does right for our Federal elections. I've never had to wait for more than 5 minutes to vote even with the recent Covid election.

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