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  1. #121
    Bloodsail Admiral tehdang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Except the reason for many progress was because the court forced it. Texas would have never legalized inter racial marriage, gay sex, gay marriage, school integration, etc otherwise. The bigotry in the state legislature was too ingraned, and the voters were happy with it. Or are you ok for minority oppression to last much longer than it would if the court forced states to behave?

    and considering we have current lawmakers trying to make such things illegal again, its just proof the states cant really be trusted
    I wish I had your religious faith, or Nostradamus future telling, to declare what would've happened in the future had justices not intervened. I just stated how many states were already liberalizing their abortion laws when the Supreme Court cut the head off from the body in the middle of it. But now we're arguing by analogy into four different supreme court cases through several posts and talking past each other. I've already said the nation is not in reconstruction and civil rights era racial segregation and miscegenation. You're stuck there. You want each court to view every national issue through the lens that the gavel is our democracy. I say the court, through Roe vs Wade, started an era of political strife because it was a terrible exercise of raw judicial power. There are two separate individuals in abortion questions, that are different from racial fights and right to privacy precedent, and their intersections of rights are a fundamental question for legislatures.

    The Supreme Court, from Roe to Casey, has been awful at adjudicating limitations on the state's interests and language on viability and undue burden. That's more evidence that legislatures need to debate and enact provisions weighing the competing interests. Nine judges cannot write the final say. You see that interracial marriage wasn't debated to be possible before the fifteenth week, or school integration to be limited to before the second trimester. Gay marriage doesn't ask about the moment of fetal viability or abnormalities. It's a very different cake you're trying to force a baker to bake, here.
    Last edited by tehdang; 2022-05-03 at 05:24 AM.
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

  2. #122
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    I object not to your characterization of miscegenation, but what "shouldnt be left to [states]" from "historical bigotedness." You'd have the nation recovering from the civil war for every decade of the fifteen decades since. When Roe was enacted, thirty states were in the process of liberalizing abortion laws through the usual democratic form: legislators voting. But why have states and legislatures argue out the weeks of pregnancy/trimester and other states view the results/improvements/deteriorations when you can just have judicial fiat slam down on the table and shut it all down? I say the current rancor on judicial appointments is partly owed to the raw expression of judicial power that occurred in 1973. They wrote a trimester system that resembled an actual bill that might be passed by a legislature. No court deserves that power.

    Still reading it ...
    "states rights" are not sufficient on the matter because it's obvious that some states do not possess the means to govern themselves on such matters. Like... with the entirety of the South, and slavery. Slavery was not going to be ended until it had to be ended for them. That was right, because slavery is wrong, no matter how many southerners at the time thought it was "right," and no matter how they tried to justify it.

    Furthermore, states that have passed these restrictive abortion laws have also began to basically illegalize it in other states, which breaches their own supposed goal of "state's rights."

    Because this isn't about state's rights, just like how the civil war wasn't about state's rights. This is clearly a moralistic move on the part of the GOP, in attempting to inflict their specific brand of morality on others, full-stop.

    And those morals are wrong. There exist such things as right and wrong in this world. Slavery, "anti-miscegenation laws," laws that deny the existence of LGBTQ+ people, and laws that control what women can and can't do with their bodies are wrong. It doesn't matter how many people believe they're right or if they happen to all be clumped together, because their ability to impress them upon people that think they are wrong is unacceptable.
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2022-05-03 at 05:10 AM.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Well fuck them then.
    But these are the reasons why people are against banning post 20 week abortions.

    For one...we're talking about ~1% of all abortions. The woman that have abortions at that point of their pregnancy, in nearly all cases, wanted to have that child. It took something major to get them to decide to terminate their pregnancies.

    For another...these are rules being put into place about medical procedures by politicians...not doctors.

    And, pragmatically:
    Isms bore me. I think they are only brought by people who seek to marginalize the potential of each ism to provide something meaningful. Name it, Capitalism, Socialism, even Communism-- all contain something of merit towards structuring a society. The biggest flaw in human history has been the need to take the worst of a system along with the best. It doesn't have to be all of one and none of another.

  4. #124
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    ok what if u voted obama, clinton, biden and this still happens
    Then at least you have a right to complain, because you actually tried doing something to the contrary, rather than sitting on one's hands just to bitch and moan that one's inaction didn't magically get one what one wanted.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post

    No more derailing than the ones I quoted.

    Edit: I believe enough have posted to prove I was correct in what would be said.

    I’m off.

    Yes this is fucked up and shouldn’t have happened but those who blame the voters for not voting for someone who actively snubbed them instead of the politician who did it are blaming the wrong people.

    Later.
    Next time actually give a reply to me instead @ someone else.

    Honestly people have became very unsettled here since Trump left office. People bringing up silly replies for no reason.

    As far as this perso,who can't come to grip that one side is willing to do anything to vote for the single issue of killing Roe v Wade needs to wake up.

    You think im the end these crazies put Trump through a test if he is a good right wing fundamentalist. No,he promising judges.

    My post was genuine in I went to vote in 2016 understanding the Supreme Cour, even after the Garland fiasco.

    So waiting for a politician who you feel snubbed at but at least know that person would give you a half decent judge. On you then.
    “There is a cult of ignorance in the United States…. [It is] nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.’”

    -Isaac Asimov

  6. #126
    you heard it folks, unless you are white, straight and a man, you're civil rights are on the chopping block. maybe, my greatest hope is with Alto being such a brazen dullard to give the end game away with this, might actually spark a real grassroots movement to change the fact that a purely undemocratic body gets to roll back civil rights by at least 70 years. because I wish I could count on the Democrats to do anything about this, but I have no reason to believe they will.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I object not to your characterization of miscegenation
    but you can't point out what they said was wrong. curious.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    ok what if u voted obama, clinton, biden and this still happens
    I sorta don't get what this means? My single vote doesn't determine elections (this is snark).

    I don't know how you can answer if this would or would not happen with past 3 Dem Presidents. On the level I would safely say that Roe v Wade would be protected if everything went the way it did there would be 5 judges who would uphold RoevWade to 4 against. Best I can answer.
    “There is a cult of ignorance in the United States…. [It is] nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.’”

    -Isaac Asimov

  8. #128
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    you heard it folks, unless you are white, straight and a man, you're civil rights are on the chopping block. maybe, my greatest hope is with Alto being such a brazen dullard to give the end game away with this, might actually spark a real grassroots movement to change the fact that a purely undemocratic body gets to roll back civil rights by at least 70 years. because I wish I could count on the Democrats to do anything about this, but I have no reason to believe they will.
    I'm not too sure what they... can do. And by can, I mean "actually accomplish," rather than simply theorycrafting a possible way to get it done that ignores the unfortunate reality of the situation.

    They can't expand the court without dissolving the filibuster. They can't dissolve the filibuster without the approval of Manchin/Sinema.

    They could try codifying it into law, but again, that would require the assent of Manchin/Sinema, who probably know that they're in a precarious enough situation in their own states that voting in the affirmative to what the democrats are trying to do could see them unseated by a republican in the next election.

    The democrats/Biden/whoever threatening Sinema and Manchin to "primary them" to try and get them to agree clearly either hasn't been effective thus far or they know wouldn't be effective if they tried it, because having two stick-in-the-mud DINO's that give the democrats a technical numbers is better than the GOP having the numbers advantage... because if the latter was true, this effort would be utterly wasted anyway.


    I do suppose an effort by the democrats is still in order, though. To show their voters that they aren't taking this lying down and show where each and every congressperson falls on this. And maybe, just maybe, it could work.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    And, pragmatically:
    I know where this image is from but not much about the context, but that's fine.

    This goes to my point that RoevWade or however framed is supported by a solid majority of generally 60% or higher but people on the pro-choice side seem not to go out and vote for it. Even if we go with the Republican numbers, those seem to vote for a Republican who would a) outright overturn pro-choice by a law or b) vote for sure a conservative judge vetted by some right wing extreme, aka The Federalist, who would kill Roe v Wade, in turn for I guess lesser taxes or small government, etc.

    This might have been the case in Maine with her promise not to vote for a judge. Idk if the people of Maine were stupid believing her or didn't care.
    “There is a cult of ignorance in the United States…. [It is] nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.’”

    -Isaac Asimov

  10. #130
    alright well, fuck it, let's watch gay rights get taken way, let's watch interracial marriage be taken away. let's look on as various other civil rights are taken away. because we have such a fantastic system where decades and decades of social and legal progress can and will just be wiped off like a chalk board. really love it, we should do more of it. /S

  11. #131
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    But these are the reasons why people are against banning post 20 week abortions.

    For one...we're talking about ~1% of all abortions. The woman that have abortions at that point of their pregnancy, in nearly all cases, wanted to have that child. It took something major to get them to decide to terminate their pregnancies.

    For another...these are rules being put into place about medical procedures by politicians...not doctors.

    And, pragmatically:
    Unfortunately its also how many of those people polled actually vote? Even then, popular opinion only means so much in the US where a few people holding key positions can impact the entire country. McConnell engineered secured the bag for his party years ago.

    Resident Cosplay Progressive

  12. #132
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    I know where this image is from but not much about the context, but that's fine.

    This goes to my point that RoevWade or however framed is supported by a solid majority of generally 60% or higher but people on the pro-choice side seem not to go out and vote for it. Even if we go with the Republican numbers, those seem to vote for a Republican who would a) outright overturn pro-choice by a law or b) vote for sure a conservative judge vetted by some right wing extreme, aka The Federalist, who would kill Roe v Wade, in turn for I guess lesser taxes or small government, etc.

    This might have been the case in Maine with her promise not to vote for a judge. Idk if the people of Maine were stupid believing her or didn't care.
    It's the unfortunate case that people often don't look at the big picture on these sort of things. Potentially a case of "When I voted for them, I didn't think the 'Leopards Eating People's Faces Party' would eat my face!"

    Anyone that thought that Clinton and Trump "might as well be the same," was acting in blinding stupidity, precisely because of this reason, right here. Either they 1) didn't think about it, which means they were dangerously short-sighted, 2) didn't think it would happen, which means they were dangerously naive, or 3) were okay with it happening, which means they were dangerously apathetic.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  13. #133
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Liberals talk about better childcare. Conservatives outlaw abortion, so the proposed childcare gets used. Sounds like a win-win. Its not like Millennials are just popping out babies anyway!

    Resident Cosplay Progressive

  14. #134
    I don't understand this desire to police other people's wombs. If a woman wants to have an abortion - let her have it. Give the consultation and support, but in the end she should be the decision maker, not some court.
    All my ignores are permanently filtered out and invisible to me. Responding to my posts with nonsense or insults is pointless, you're likely already invisible and if not - 3 clicks away. One ignore is much better than 3 pages of trolling.

  15. #135
    Bloodsail Admiral tehdang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    "states rights" are not sufficient on the matter because it's obvious that some states do not possess the means to govern themselves on such matters. Like... with the entirety of the South, and slavery. Slavery was not going to be ended until it had to be ended for them. That was right, because slavery is wrong, no matter how many southerners at the time thought it was "right," and no matter how they tried to justify it.
    Yep. We fought a war over it. If it's such a big deal that it's worth fighting a literal war on it, breaking apart the union, then I'm all aboard. Sometimes, it feels like some states want a peaceful divorce when they can't force their morality on a national basis. 9 legislators wearing black robes nation, and a collection of states nation.

    Furthermore, states that have passed these restrictive abortion laws have also began to basically illegalize it in other states, which breaches their own supposed goal of "state's rights."
    Maybe just some states have proposed "illegalizing" it in other states?

    Because this isn't about state's rights, just like how the civil war wasn't about state's rights. This is clearly a moralistic move on the part of the GOP, in attempting to inflict their specific brand of morality on others, full-stop.
    The whole "legal under any circumstances" and "legal only under certain circumstances" polling over time suggests that it's competition among various brands of morality.

    And those morals are wrong. There exist such things as right and wrong in this world. Slavery, "anti-miscegenation laws," laws that deny the existence of LGBTQ+ people, and laws that control what women can and can't do with their bodies are wrong. It doesn't matter how many people believe they're right or if they happen to all be clumped together, because their ability to impress them upon people that think they are wrong is unacceptable.
    This really sounds like you're imposing your specific brand of morality on others. I know you expect many to share this, but you're really hurting the previous bit. You get to decide which laws "deny the existence of LGBTQ+ people" and we already control "what women can and can't do with their bodies" in both abortion and unborn female children.
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    I'll post it here cause this thread is more specific.

    The ruling itself isnt even the most terrifying part. Its the logic used in it. Right now its abortion, but Alito also specifically called out gay marriage and sodomy decisions. Whats next, Inter race marriages? Contraception use?

    WTF conservatives
    I refrained from commenting until I could read into it a bit.

    While this decision was not unexpected, the reasoning is indeed fucking horrifying. It opens the door to all sorts of fucking things from restrictions on gay rights to literally miscegination laws.

    They went from zero to eleven out of the gate.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Drutt View Post
    Unfortunately it's starting to look like RBG's most enduring legacy will be facilitating the hijacking of the Supreme Court due to her refusal to step down at a safe time.
    I mean ... I won't pin this on her exclusively. It's more of an issue of Democrats overall not giving a fuck about the court because fundamentally their donors love this court as much the Republicans do.

    You know a court that will rubber stamp every corporate deregulation and tax dodge they can dream up.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I don't understand this desire to police other people's wombs.
    These are the same people who pretend to worship an all-powerful entity that polices their every thought. This is nothing compared to that.

  18. #138
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    Yep. We fought a war over it. If it's such a big deal that it's worth fighting a literal war on it, breaking apart the union, then I'm all aboard. Sometimes, it feels like some states want a peaceful divorce when they can't force their morality on a national basis. 9 legislators wearing black robes nation, and a collection of states nation.

    Maybe just some states have proposed "illegalizing" it in other states?

    The whole "legal under any circumstances" and "legal only under certain circumstances" polling over time suggests that it's competition among various brands of morality.

    This really sounds like you're imposing your specific brand of morality on others. I know you expect many to share this, but you're really hurting the previous bit. You get to decide which laws "deny the existence of LGBTQ+ people" and we already control "what women can and can't do with their bodies" in both abortion and unborn female children.
    I'll entrust LGBTQ+ people and women to have better understanding of what kinds of legislation are actively denying them rights or denying their existence, and they seem to be pretty vociferously against the kinds of legislation the GOP are proposing here.

    Wonder why that is. So your entreatment of "I do not feel that this legislation unfairly targets the people who aren't me" is pretty hollow when the people it is targeting are saying the opposite of what you are.

    And again, you seem to be approaching this as some form of "no right or wrong, only consensus," and that is errant. There is right, and there is wrong. "Moral relativism" is only an excuse for apathy at best and actual unspoken support at worst.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  19. #139
    Elections matter. 2016 was the most important election but a decent number of americans were too stuck up in their own arses to think about it

    "don't threaten me with the Supreme Court!"


  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    Elections matter. 2016 was the most important election but a decent number of americans were too stuck up in their own arses to think about it

    "don't threaten me with the Supreme Court!"

    wish RBG got that memo. could have spared us all a lot of trouble.

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