And here we have it -- "But both sides". Yeah fuck that. We've seen how this shit starts before when a system of government starts eliminating rights from certain groups. It never stops with just one. When the other side starts actively turning a group of people into brood mares or enforcing restrictions on them that are not placed on others we'll talk.
“You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.”― Malcolm X
I watch them fight and die in the name of freedom. They speak of liberty and justice, but for whom? -Ratonhnhaké:ton (Connor Kenway)
"Everyone, including women, should have the final say over what happens to their own bodies" is not in any respect an "extreme position".
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They disagree with that ideal. They think women are brood mares for society and a lower class of creature than men, which is why they seek to deny them that ownership and agency over their own bodies.
That's literally the debate. There is no middle ground. It's a binary question. You either respect women's basic bodily autonomy, or you do not.
I don't think it's that simple.
Like, abortions should 100% be legal if a woman gets raped. That makes perfect sense. She didn't want this conception, not to mention the mental scars and trauma it might induce, that's not healthy for her and if she ends up having the baby that's not healthy for it too considering she might hate it.
Abortions should also be legal if the pregnancy poses a danger to the mother's healthy. That's a no-brainer really. You aint gonna force her to die for the baby, even if it's in the very late stages.
However, what about a woman that decides to conceive one day, is perfectly ok with it. Has no health problems or financial problems. But then one month later she wakes up and is like "Hmm, you know what, I changed my mind, I don't want a baby right now, might try again in a few years though..." The exact same way someone would decide to change a shirt because they didn't like the colour. Why shouldn't there be any repercussions for that? The same way there are for a father or a mother who abandons their child after birth? I mean, naturally it's their life right? They should technically be free to give up the child instead of wasting 18 or however years of their lives raising it.
Abortion should be legal because it being banned could destroy a lot of lives. However I don't think people should be proud about it. As if it some achievement to have had an abortion.
This is what I mean by middle ground you see?
In a country like America, where the goverment doesn't care about its citizens and there's no health care, and you need to pay ten thousand fucking dollars to have a child, which mind you is one of the most natural things to do in life, yet they still managed to capitalize on it because they can, there's simply no other option.
Maybe in a futuristic, utopian society where everyone has free health care, pregnancy is painless, and children have their every need taken care of even if they are "abandoned" by their parents. Maybe then.
“There you stand, the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs, and your rigid pacifism crumbles to blood stained dust, the only victory afforded to you is that you stuck true to your guns.”
Then you've admitted that it isn't about the fetus, at all, and any arguments to that effect are intentionally misleading nonsense you know you don't actually believe. You can't have this both ways. The above statement is an admission that pro-choice positions are correct and pro-life arguments have no justification other than punishing women for religious "moral" violations.
How is this meaningfully different from the rape example?However, what about a woman that decides to conceive one day, is perfectly ok with it. Has no health problems or financial problems. But then one month later she wakes up and is like "Hmm, you know what, I changed my mind, I don't want a baby right now, might try again in a few years though..." The exact same way someone would decide to change a shirt because they didn't like the colour. Why shouldn't there be any repercussions for that? The same way there are for a father or a mother who abandons their child after birth? I mean, naturally it's their life right? They should technically be free to give up the child instead of wasting 18 or however years of their lives raising it.
And don't reference the rape itself; that's a past event that has no direct bearing. What matters is that the woman has decided she does not want to continue the pregnancy. The reason why shouldn't factor in, at all.
Why shouldn't there be any repercussions? For what? There isn't any non-religious basis for inflicting any repercussions whatsoever. It's like asking what the "repercussions" should be for getting a blood transfusion. Even if you're not a Jehovah's Witness.
Literally nobody does this, except as a "fuck you" to assholes trying to deny them basic rights and freedoms.Abortion should be legal because it being banned could destroy a lot of lives. However I don't think people should be proud about it. As if it some achievement to have had an abortion.
I really, really don't. Your "middle ground" seems to be carving out a system whereby religious extremists get to force non-believers to abide by the extremists' religious moral codes, under penalty of law, and where women's basic human rights as people are denied. Even situationally, that's still "denied".This is what I mean by middle ground you see?
It's how it is in Canada. And has been for 30+ years. No issues at all, up here.Maybe in a futuristic, utopian society where everyone has free health care, pregnancy is painless, and children have their every need taken care of even if they are "abandoned" by their parents. Maybe then.
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The rape exception is basically just a straight-up admission that the one arguing for it has the intent and goal of suppressing women's basic human rights. They just know they'll look like raving misogynists if they come right out and say that. So they try and make that exception to look more "reasonable".
Here's the base reason why; you're pinning your opposition to abortion on the fetus and its' supposed "rights" (it doesn't have any, I'm allowing the argument for a moment to demonstrate the failure). Does the rape-fetus carry the blame of its rapist father? If not, how is this a meaningful exception?
Forcing a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term is traumatic and abusive regardless of whether the initial conception was the result of rape or not. It is, in fact, much the same kind of thing as rape; you're forcing your interests on her body and denying her the agency and control over her own body.
B U T B O T H S I D E S!!!!!!!
Fuck off with this, your big 'gotcha' about Pro-Choice hypocrisy is a load of garbage anyway when you can't seem to parse together that it's taking the piss out of Pro-Life hypocrisy anyway. Because those dipshits pearl clutching about 'muh sanctity of life' actively fight against any movement or legislation to actually make having and raising kids easier and/or actively fight against simply making it easier to not have kids in the first place (gutting sex ed, fighting against contraceptives for some stupid reason).
Some things should not be controlled by the states.
States rights is a bullcrap in this case.
The supreme court has failed the people.
Something must be done.
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Except rape trials take longer than a pregnancy. And even the shortest one the woman would beyond the viability point for the fetus by weeks. This is an argument from someone attempting to build a middle ground where none exists.
All pregnancies risk the mother's health. So what level of risk is acceptable? Guaranteed death or is a 90% chance of death enough? Where do you draw the line?Abortions should also be legal if the pregnancy poses a danger to the mother's healthy. That's a no-brainer really. You aint gonna force her to die for the baby, even if it's in the very late stages.
You just built a fake person and going "We can't allow these people to exist." No one thinks like that.However, what about a woman that decides to conceive one day, is perfectly ok with it. Has no health problems or financial problems. But then one month later she wakes up and is like "Hmm, you know what, I changed my mind, I don't want a baby right now, might try again in a few years though..." The exact same way someone would decide to change a shirt because they didn't like the colour. Why shouldn't there be any repercussions for that? The same way there are for a father or a mother who abandons their child after birth? I mean, naturally it's their life right? They should technically be free to give up the child instead of wasting 18 or however years of their lives raising it.
You are taking people trolling literal here.
There is no middle ground. You are clearly on one side pretending you're in the middle.Abortion should be legal because it being banned could destroy a lot of lives. However I don't think people should be proud about it. As if it some achievement to have had an abortion.
This is what I mean by middle ground you see?
It costs on average, about 17K to have a child in the United States, prior to Roe it was 1500 on average. Having children can literally put a family so much into a hole, that they can't get out of it. Especially when the same people restricting abortion want to keep the minimum wage below poverty levels and keep healthcare unaffordable.In a country like America, where the goverment doesn't care about its citizens and there's no health care, and you need to pay ten thousand fucking dollars to have a child, which mind you is one of the most natural things to do in life, yet they still managed to capitalize on it because they can, there's simply no other option.
Maybe in a futuristic, utopian society where everyone has free health care, pregnancy is painless, and children have their every need taken care of even if they are "abandoned" by their parents. Maybe then.
Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
–The Sith Code
I hadn't thought of that in terms of how long convictions take. The rape exception definitely needs to be pushed back against/handwaved away. If they truly believe the zygote/fetus deserves rights, then the rape should be irrelevant to their line of thinking. It's just something they can say to try and appear less ghoulish.
"We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."
-Louis Brandeis
Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
–The Sith Code
As something I saw this morning said:
If you are pro life, I sincerely hope your spouse cheats on you and there is a pregnancy. They now have to keep the kid.
You asked for it.
Not gonna lie, it took me years to fully realize how meaningless the rape argument was. Like you and Endus said: it's a pretense to appease enlightened centrist like fellow @Xilurm up there.
“There you stand, the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs, and your rigid pacifism crumbles to blood stained dust, the only victory afforded to you is that you stuck true to your guns.”
The fetus is always in question though. I just believe that the woman's life, health, both physical and mental are way more important than the fetus itself.
Because she's doing it out of inconvenience, just doesn't feel like it.How is this meaningfully different from the rape example?
I'm not bringing religion in this btw. I think it's morally wrong not because of any religious ideals or anything of the sort, but just because I believe it is. But at the same time I don't think it should be banned.And don't reference the rape itself; that's a past event that has no direct bearing. What matters is that the woman has decided she does not want to continue the pregnancy. The reason why shouldn't factor in, at all.
Why shouldn't there be any repercussions? For what? There isn't any non-religious basis for inflicting any repercussions whatsoever. It's like asking what the "repercussions" should be for getting a blood transfusion. Even if you're not a Jehovah's Witness.
In a world with so much child abuse, (or hell, abuse in general) I fully disagree.Literally nobody does this, except as a "fuck you" to assholes trying to deny them basic rights and freedoms.
Again, no religious ideals for this here. I just think its messed up if you do it willy nilly, without conscience. However, like I said before, it shouldn't be banned. Goverments are incapable of making the distinction. The system is already fucked as is.I really, really don't. Your "middle ground" seems to be carving out a system whereby religious extremists get to force non-believers to abide by the extremists' religious moral codes, under penalty of law, and where women's basic human rights as people are denied. Even situationally, that's still "denied".
It's how it is in Canada. And has been for 30+ years. No issues at all, up here.
My first post on this thread was about twitter and the extreme positions people are taking, from both sides. Thats my whole point in this discussion. I don't oppose abortion being legal, but I do think it's a necessary evil.
However, people are taking extreme sides, they are each others throats. Watching this from the outside is like watching one of those comedy movies, where people are constantly getting hurt but no one is taking it seriously, except this is irl. America is so divided. It literally doesn't matter one bit who your president is and which party they come from. That country is eating itself from the inside and there's literally no signs of stopping.
Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
–The Sith Code