SCOTUS removes Roe V Wade

[Drutt]

what by getting everything they want?

No, of course not.

[beanman12345]

Especially when we had all of 72 days with a super majority because Kennedy died. Thus making things need to be prioritized.

Yeah people can make a lot of whatever arguments but Kennedy dying fucked everything up.

[Lenonis]

i mean you're welcome to think that, and i wish i had the capacity to live in that sort of comforting fantasy, but they've also been saying wow is dying for the last 20 years and it's still chugging along.

It's not fantasy - it's reality.

religious woo-woo is a thing humans do, whether it's strictly evangelicals or some other form of protestant inspired bullshit that's going to be a significant cultural and political force for decades at least.

Not all religions are equal though when we talk politics. Quite a few, for example, have either embraced or decided to ignore the LGBT topics.

that is exactly what people said 8 years ago when it was suggested trump being elected would be a political disaster, and trump getting to nominate several SC judges would lead to RvW being overturned.
it's ostrich levels of head in the sand to deny the sky is falling when the sky is smashing into your face.

Alright man. You go ahead and think the US will criminalize homosexuality. You do you boo.

support for abortion is as high as support for gay marriage

Except that isn't true. And reminder you aren't talking about gay marriage - you are talking about criminalizing homosexuality.

[Nurasu]

Lot of hate for Susan Collins today and none for the dumbasses who disagree with her but keep sending her to Congress.

[Lenonis]

Whether it will be illegal in 30 years is somewhat irrelevant, at the moment. But if you don't think that basic rights like that will not have to be fought for (AGAIN) as a result of this ruling in ultra conservative states then you haven't been paying attention.

Oh I absolutely believe that gay marriage rights are in real danger. Now. Today.

The argument I'm pushing back against is that if we had locked up the SCOTUS for 30 years back in 2016 that we'd have them at risk 30 years from now.

[Adam Jensen]

So is this where we are piling on people who were warned what was at stake if Trump won in 2016 and they refused to listen because they were upset that Hillary didn't pander to them?

I remember the week of the election, I still had half a mind to say "fuck it" and vote for Bernie Sanders.

But then I remembered Scalia's death and Merrick Garland still sitting in limbo and decided, despite not liking Hillary, it'd be better that I voted for her, rather than tossing my vote for an ideological vote that would affect nothing.

In that moment, I decided to vote for Clinton. I still remember walking around base (I was at Ali Al Salem in Kuwait at the time) thinking about it.

[Lenonis]

5 years ago would you have said abortion would be criminalized within 5 years?

Yes. And I did so. I was one of the voices screaming in 2016 that the SCOTUS was more important than anything.

[Darththeo]

It's not fantasy - it's reality.

Not all religions are equal though when we talk politics. Quite a few, for example, have either embraced or decided to ignore the LGBT topics.

Alright man. You go ahead and think the US will criminalize homosexuality. You do you boo.

Except that isn't true. And reminder you aren't talking about gay marriage - you are talking about criminalizing homosexuality.

You do know that it was only 2003 where sodomy laws were deemed UnConstitutional right?

[Lenonis]

Polling showed that the majority of americans support the right to choose regarding abortion rights. Polls mean absolutely nothing.

I don't think these are fundamentally comparable.

Although support for abortion has fluxuated a small amount over time it's been mostly stable. Many people will never know someone (or they think they don't know someone) who has had an abortion. It's still an issue that affects "them" - and not anyone they know.

One of the reasons why support for gay marriage has skyrocketed is people know gay people. Friends, family, coworkers.... and it's a whole lot harder to look someone you love in the eye who you know is gay and say " I want to take our rights away." it's why support even among conservatives for gay marriage has increased.

For many people abortion doesn't affect them. For a ton of people gay rights is more personal. I think it's fundamentally different.

And although I do think there is a risk that gay marriage may be revoked (which would create a huge legal nightmare so I don't even know how that would work) - I don't believe there is even a small chance that homosexuality will be criminalized.

[Fugus]

Oh I absolutely believe that gay marriage rights are in real danger. Now. Today.

The argument I'm pushing back against is that if we had locked up the SCOTUS for 30 years back in 2016 that we'd have them at risk 30 years from now.

Except for the fact that a marriage issued in one state is valid in all states and they have zero chance of banning gay marriage. Their "States Rights" argument doesn't get the same mileage as it used to when the majority is against them on these issues by large margins, it just gives them the ability to show how they really are and gives them enough rope to hang themselves both as a party and as a state.

Unless I am wrong and you can be married in one state by single in an other.

[Lenonis]

You do know that it was only 2003 where sodomy laws were deemed UnConstitutional right?

Two questions:
1) How often were they enforced?
2) What was the support for gay rights back in 2003 again?

[Paranoid Android]

Lot of hate for Susan Collins today and none for the dumbasses who disagree with her but keep sending her to Congress.

The majority of Maine population can't have kids anymore since they all 100 years old. So this wasn't an issue for them. She won by almost by 10 points in Maine. In fact Maine is really scary since Independent, Angus King is not young.

But as stated many times Collins, Manchin and even any shocked Democrat can't play that dumb knowing these people were lying. In fact I give Collins great credit of playing the spaced-out idiot who plays dumb to avoid any repercussions. As you stated the majority of 100 year olds in Maine <snark> are just as oblivious.

[Darththeo]

Two questions:
1) How often were they enforced?
2) What was the support for gay rights back in 2003 again?

Not often, but they were on the books and used to prevent certain people from running for office or holding positions of authority.
And less than the support for abortion rights is now.

[Lenonis]

Except for the fact that a marriage issued in one state is valid in all states and they have zero chance of banning gay marriage. Their "States Rights" argument doesn't get the same mileage as it used to when the majority is against them on these issues by large margins, it just gives them the ability to show how they really are and gives them enough rope to hang themselves both as a party and as a state.

Unless I am wrong and you can be married in one state by single in an other.

yeah, this is where my brain melts a bit. Let's just say the SCOTUS overturns it. what happens to the current marriages? I don't think these rulings go retroactive.

And then there is your point -- marriages are legal contracts and I think the BEST conservatives could get is you can't get a marriage license issued in that state, but if they go out of state and get married the state would have to recognize it.

Right?

I dunno - I don't think this one is as much of a slam dunk as conservatives think it is as the issues are pretty complex and unlike abortion which is a single event in time, marriages last over a period of time. Making it a much more complex thing to work out.

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Can I introduce you to Florida?

Florida criminalized homosexuality? News to me.

[Kathranis]

what by getting everything they want?

The pendulum is going to swing hard the other way, it's just a matter of time. The GOP is resorting to increasingly desperate means to force their agenda through and retain what power they can.

[Lenonis]

And less than the support for abortion rights is now.

It was a mistake to bring this up when I meant to point out the change over time as the significant factor, not the over/under in popularity. As I pointed out earlier I don't think the two are comparable in this way - the thing that matters IMO is the trending.

But hey, I could be wrong and in 5 years we could be in a real life handmaids tale scene. I just don't think it's going to happen. I think the conservatives got their gun rights and their abortion win. Although at risk I don't think they are going to outlaw gay rights. At worst they'd overturn the prior decision but that wouldn't necessarily make it illegal - there are other more complicated issues at play.

[Edge-]

I'm desperately looking for silver linings. May never happen, but it would be wild if the ruling - which largely eliminates the fight over health care rights and access to abortions - results in considerably depressed Republican turnout for a while. Roe was a hugely animating issue for them, and while there are others like CRT or the "MIGRANT CARAVAN" and other shit, none of it comes close to how impactful the fight over Roe has been for them.

It's most likely wishful thinking, but I'm looking for any reason to have some hope/optimism as millions of women have their bodily autonomy and right to make all their own health care decisions revoked from them by many states.

[Lenonis]

what by getting everything they want?

A satisfied voter base is not a base motivated to vote.

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results in considerably depressed Republican turnout for a while.

I don't know about a while...but unless something drastic happens in the next four months we might see the midterms turn out more favorable for Dems than we thought. Especially if gas prices go down and inflation slows.

Although why people insist on thinking the president controls those is beyond me.

[Fugus]

yeah, this is where my brain melts a bit. Let's just say the SCOTUS overturns it. what happens to the current marriages? I don't think these rulings go retroactive.

And then there is your point -- marriages are legal contracts and I think the BEST conservatives could get is you can't get a marriage license issued in that state, but if they go out of state and get married the state would have to recognize it.

Right?

I dunno - I don't think this one is as much of a slam dunk as conservatives think it is as the issues are pretty complex and unlike abortion which is a single event in time, marriages last over a period of time. Making it a much more complex thing to work out.

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Florida criminalized homosexuality? News to me.

It's a Pyrrhic Victory for them from what I can tell. I posted this elsewhere but will post it here as well.

My take on this. It won't work out the way the GOP hopes it will.

1) Mexico and Canada have already stated that they will allow Americans to enter for the day to get abortions.
2) Countless major companies have already gone to say they will pay to get their workers out of the state for procedures and will pay for it.
3) The Air Force and the Army has already talked about moving soldiers out of them to stop it from impacting our readiness.
4) Virtually every drug dealer in that state will start selling morning after pills. If they ban birth control, those dealers will have a new best selling product.
5) At the border of every one of those states will have places opening up to sell it similar to how fire works are sold at the border of states who banned them.

And in the process, the GOP has shown what they want and stand for and given more pressure to undo them.
Agreed on faith in the court, I have negative faith in them at this point and expect increasingly more to defy them with many states to defy them as well.

Their best (For them) outcome would be the equivalent of prohibition with it likely to be more along the lines of their war on drugs but with even less support. As far as dealing with this, the Democrats refuse. Just keep this in mind, Brett Kavanaugh committed perjury on live TV and is punishable by 5 years in prison and he is still under the statute of limitations, the DOJ could remove him NOW and throw him in prison, they just don't.

[Paranoid Android]

Sen. Josh Hawley calls the abortion ruling a watershed moment in American politics. He says he thinks there will be a sorting out in where people live and in voting patterns that he thinks will benefit Republicans with the electoral college.

Mr. coup attempt himself, Josh Hawley once more saying the quite part out loud. Hey get rid of those people who vote for one party just cause they can't get abortion and if we happen to get more electoral power out of it. Great!