1. #2701
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It is, by definition.

    The anti-abortion movement is, explicitly, an attack on women's rights. That makes it gendered, automatically.

    Yeah, this issue shouldn't be gendered, but the moment we remove gender war from the situation, we're left with pro-choice and that's it.
    So who are you "fighting" if it's a war of Men vs. Women, exactly? And do you stand with pro-life women on this issue purely because of gender? Of course not. It's a stupid way to approach the issue, the only thing that comes out of it people fighting about the wrong thing and the low hanging fruit of throwing labels around.

    The reality is that it's not "Men vs Women", it specifically IS pro-life vs pro-choice. Bodily autonomy vs. religious or other irrelevant beliefs. Not gender vs. gender.

  2. #2702
    Quote Originally Posted by Minifie View Post
    Okay, you are just being outwardly wrong and misogynistic then, which you stand by as well.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Pro-life are anti-woman and misogynistic.
    Nope, but you can have your opinion even if it is horseshit as you say.

  3. #2703
    Quote Originally Posted by Minifie View Post
    If the shoe fits, and in this case, it does.
    I fail to see why I am being misogynistic while I am pro abortion ? That is why your opinion is horseshit.

  4. #2704
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    So who are you "fighting" if it's a war of Men vs. Women, exactly?
    The pro-choice movement is the one fighting against women's rights.

    The rest of us are fighting to protect them.

    Only one side is making this "men vs women". The rest of us are fighting for equity and equality.

    And do you stand with pro-life women on this issue purely because of gender? Of course not.
    I mean, you're just willfully misrepresenting the issue at this point. "Gender war" does not automatically translate to "men vs women".


  5. #2705
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minifie View Post
    Because you are calling it a necessary evil, and you stand by it. You are only "pro" abortion because you can at least submit to SOME accommodation for women's bodily autonomy. Abortion isn't, in any way, evil, as long as you believe that, the shoe fits.
    And that's why I used the example of heart surgery.

    If you just strapped a random guy down and cut into their chest to fiddle with their heart for funzies, that'd be violently evil and horrible, right?

    Well, if your goal is to fix a health problem and you've got the training and expertise to do it as safely as possible, that's just "heart surgery". And nobody calls surgeries "necessary evils", because that's obviously asinine.

    It doesn't matter if, in some other context, similar actions could be construed as "evil". What matters is this context, where it isn't evil, in any way whatsoever.
    Last edited by Endus; 2022-06-25 at 05:35 PM.


  6. #2706
    Quote Originally Posted by Minifie View Post
    Because you are calling it a necessary evil, and you stand by it. You are only "pro" abortion because you can at least submit to SOME accommodation for women's bodily autonomy. Abortion isn't, in any way, evil, as long as you believe that, the shoe fits.
    Nope, and I say that as a men whose wife had an abortion 10 years ago (we were unprepared, mentally not ready and it was not wanted) and I was with her all the way. I can dismiss your opinion and you can shove it your ass.

  7. #2707
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Nope, and I say that as a men whose wife had an abortion 10 years ago (we were unprepared, mentally not ready and it was not wanted) and I was with her all the way. I can dismiss your opinion and you can shove it your ass.
    You don't get to dismiss it out of hand without justifying your reasoning.

    You've got to establish why abortion is "evil", in the first place. That was your completely baseless claim. And you're doing everything you can to avoid defending it.


  8. #2708
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minifie View Post
    Pro-life are anti-woman and misogynistic.
    That's not a very strong explanation though because it doesn't explain why so many spiritual women are still against abortion. I bet you that religion is a stronger predictor of a person's view on abortion compared to gender-based reasons.

  9. #2709
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The pro-choice movement is the one fighting against women's rights.

    The rest of us are fighting to protect them.

    Only one side is making this "men vs women". The rest of us are fighting for equity and equality.
    Well there you go. It's a group of people who believe something versus a group of people who believe something else. Nothing more.

    This has been an issue with the left for ages. It's like they don't know how to discuss policy without a clear, visual, "identity vs identity" angle to it. Which is weird because that's specifically a right wing strategy, so why fall for it.

  10. #2710
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You don't get to dismiss it out of hand without justifying your reasoning.

    You've got to establish why abortion is "evil", in the first place. That was your completely baseless claim. And you're doing everything you can to avoid defending it.
    Nah, it is you failing to see my argument, as per usual when you can't defend yours.

  11. #2711
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost of Cow View Post
    Well there you go. It's a group of people who believe something versus a group of people who believe something else. Nothing more.

    This has been an issue with the left for ages. It's like they don't know how to discuss policy without a clear, visual, "identity vs identity" angle to it. Which is weird because that's specifically a right wing strategy, so why fall for it.
    We said it was a "gender war". You're the one who's insisted on trying to make it "identity vs identity". You're projecting.


  12. #2712
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Nah, it is you failing to see my argument, as per usual when you can't defend yours.
    You haven't made an argument. You declared abortion a "necessary evil", and have refused to explain that. That's not an argument, it's a claim without basis.


  13. #2713
    Why is it always about religion?

    Why can't someone be both pro-choice and also at the same time say that the action of abortion itself is a sad and tragic thing?

  14. #2714
    Quote Originally Posted by Minifie View Post
    I just don't think people understand what a "necessary evil" is, still burning fossil fuels but transitioning to renewable energies would be a "necessary evil", at least it would be closer to the phrase than abortion.
    Necessary evil means that if contraception was 100% sucessful, and that we have tons of sexual education, that everyone knew what the fuck they would be doing, I would do without aborting. But since it is not the case, and it won't be anytime soon => necessary evil .

  15. #2715
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Why can't someone be both pro-choice and also at the same time say that the action of abortion itself is a sad and tragic thing?
    Well, you can, as long as you're not concern trolling or whatever you'd call it.

  16. #2716
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Why is it always about religion?

    Why can't someone be both pro-choice and also at the same time say that the action of abortion itself is a sad and tragic thing?
    Why would it be "sad and tragic"?

    Answer that, and you'll start answering your own question, and how your framing is problematic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Necessary evil means that if contraception was 100% sucessful, and that we have tons of sexual education, that everyone knew what the fuck they would be doing, I would do without aborting. But since it is not the case, and it won't be anytime soon => necessary evil .
    So you don't support women's bodily autonomy, then. Not really.


  17. #2717
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Why would it be "sad and tragic"?

    Answer that, and you'll start answering your own question, and how your framing is problematic.

    Because on one hand, I would imagine it's a traumatic experience, and on the other hand, it's the loss of a potential life. And I say my second point not from the point of view of any religion, I'm not saying it because I believe that there's a soul in there and it should be saved, or anything of the sort.

  18. #2718
    Legendary! Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Necessary evil means that if contraception was 100% sucessful, and that we have tons of sexual education, that everyone knew what the fuck they would be doing, I would do without aborting. But since it is not the case, and it won't be anytime soon => necessary evil .
    Well, that can't happen. Nothing in the world is 100%. Even perfect use, doesn't happen in reality, contraception still can result in a handful of pregnancies per 1000 uses.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  19. #2719
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minifie View Post
    If you agree to bodily autonomy, and that everyone HAS full facility over their person, you are for abortions 100%. If you aren't, you are singling out women as being unable to have that freedom. Ergo, you are at least misogynist, and potentially also anti-woman (both being mostly the same thing).
    What? I'm saying the data doesn't corroborate your prior explanation as the strongest explanation...
    Quote Originally Posted by Minifie View Post
    Spirituality isn't something measurable,
    That argument is a double-edged sword though. While it is true that spiritual stuff can't be measured, other abstractions such as the ethical validity of having an abortion also can't be measured.

    Also just to be clear here my personal guess on this issue is that the consent of the pregnant woman outweighs all other concerns.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minifie View Post
    a woman's right to bodily autonomy doesn't give a shit about your chakras.
    F--k chakra, I agree!
    Last edited by PC2; 2022-06-25 at 05:52 PM.

  20. #2720
    The Insane Arafal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    That's not a very strong explanation though because it doesn't explain why so many spiritual women are still against abortion.
    It works just fine an explanation, as those women are simply misogynistic themselves.



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